Is The Emotion Of "guilt" Useless And Only Self-damaging?

[SirBishop]

Is guilt a learned emotion? Does it serve a purpose? Is it unnecessary? How does it root itself? How do you overcome guilt? Why do some people feel more guilty than others?

i don't need all these questions answered they are just some that came to my mind. I'm am an extremely guilt conscious person and the only way to relieve it is to confess, which can be a rather selfish act.

[Jarrod]

Guilt comes from a thought/emotion based upon a particular concept.

A concept that the world should be certain way and people should act in a certain way.

If you believe you 'should' have done something (or something different) then you will feel guilty.

When you see the thought or emotion of guilt then stop. See it.

Just look it at it without thinking.

Continuing looking without thinking.

Just let it be.

Then look at the yourself who is looking at it, and let it go, ask for it to be gone.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by SirBishop

Is guilt a learned emotion?

Partly. Some emotions are instinctive but most as learned extensions of those instinctive ones. With guilt what you learn is to associate certain behaviours with the feeling that you've done something bad. The core of guilt is morality; when you accept a certain moral rule, for example "you must not have sex before marriage", if you break that rule then you feel bad because you believe you have done something you shouldn't do.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

Does it serve a purpose?

Yes. We're a social species and without morality we would not be able to maintain the large societies that we do. Without internal guides to shape our behaviour in ways that benefit others we wouldn't be able to cooperate with each other. Guilt serves the purpose of encouraging us not to do things which might harm others or ourselves in some way. But since guilt is related to morality and morality is far more complex than that, there's a lot more to it. Here's a good discussion of morality.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

Is it unnecessary?

That depends on the specific cause of the guilt. As mentioned in response to the previous question, morality itself is necessary, and the emotion of guilt is useful, but specific experiences of guilt may not be. If we use the 'sex before marriage' example again, what if there's really no harm in having sex before marriage? Assuming that's the case then there's no use in feeling guilty. In the end you'd just end up feeling bad about doing something you enjoy.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

How does it root itself?

Basically through social learning. At home, at school, in church, and everywhere else that you interact with others you're constantly observing what people say, what people do, how they and others react, and how they all feel. All of that combines in your mind to form a set of do's and don'ts.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

Why do some people feel more guilty than others?

I think the answer to this question is even more complex than all the others. And all the others are far more complex than I've said. Basically it comes down to personality differences, and those differences are partly due to innate differences, things you're born with, and learned differences, the effects of the environment you grow up in. The kinds of people who tend to feel more guilty than others are people with low self-esteem, people who are more easily swayed by authority, and people who tend to feel anxious or nervous a lot, especially around other people.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

How do you overcome guilt?

There are a few ways. You can try Jarrod's reflective method. It might work well if you're a generally relaxed person.

Other options include examining the specific belief which caused a specific experience of guilt. When you believe that you should act in a certain way and feel guilty when you don't, ask yourself why you believe you should act that way, and what you believe will happen if you don't. If you find that your belief is valid then you should also find the motivation to not do what you believe you shouldn't. It can be tough to change those habits which lead you to do the things you shouldn't do, but if you stay focused on the source of your beliefs (and the knowledge that the beliefs are valid) then the motivation that you experience will allow you to change those habits.

[SirBishop]

thanks for your replies. I have always wondered what personal benefit would come from feeling guilt. I don't necessarily believe that one must feel guilty in order not to repeat a behavior.

What personal benefit would come from guilt?

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Guilt serves the purpose of encouraging us not to do things which might harm others or ourselves in some way.
That depends on the specific cause of the guilt. As mentioned in response to the previous question, morality itself is necessary, and the emotion of guilt is useful....
Other options include examining the specific belief which caused a specific experience of guilt. When you believe that you should act in a certain way and feel guilty when you don't, ask yourself why you believe you should act that way, and what you believe will happen if you don't. If you find that your belief is valid then you should also find the motivation to not do what you believe you shouldn't. It can be tough to change those habits which lead you to do the things you shouldn't do, but if you stay focused on the source of your beliefs (and the knowledge that the beliefs are valid) then the motivation that you experience will allow you to change those habits.

Guilt serves no productive purpose to someone who's not run by ego. Once you realize your ego caused you to do something wrong, if you can do something to rectify it, you should. You should not feel guilty. It serves no purpose but to punish you for something you already realize was wrong. Even if there's nothing you can do to rectify the situation guilt serves no purpose. In fact, it just makes things worse. It causes you to feel bad and pass on your negativity to others and be unproductive. Apologize and learn from your mistake and renew your commitment to living in the now and not to be a slave to your ego.

[SirBishop]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Guilt serves no productive purpose to someone who's not run by ego. Once you realize your ego caused you to do something wrong, if you can do something to rectify it, you should. You should not feel guilty. It serves no purpose but to punish you for something you already realize was wrong. Even if there's nothing you can do to rectify the situation guilt serves no purpose. In fact, it just makes things worse. It causes you to feel bad and pass on your negativity to others and be unproductive. Apologize and learn from your mistake and renew your commitment to living in the now and not to be a slave to your ego.

yea, thats pretty much how I feel about it as well. It can be very tough to do this sometimes. I'm so accustomed to feeling guilty that it feels "wrong" not to feel guilty and when I'm so used to it. I guess it's all about change here if I want to grow.

[Jarrod]

I agree, it only helps those who cannot go beyond the ego and help themselves.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Once you realize your ego caused you to do something wrong, if you can do something to rectify it, you should. ... It serves no purpose but to punish you for something you already realize was wrong.

How exactly do you decide what's right or wrong anyway? What form does the realisation take? Emotion. A feeling which you associate with either rejection of that which is wrong or approval of that which is right. One of those emotions is guilt. Something more might also be involved, and we're certainly capable of thinking rationally about morality, but emotion is primary.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You should not feel guilty.

The feeling of guilt is often the very first identifiable sign that you've done something wrong. In that case what do you think will happen if someone accepts the advice that they shouldn't feel guilty? More guilt. That's what happens, their initial guilt is compounded by the thought that they shouldn't feel that way, sending them down a spiral into anxiety over their inability to prevent what they don't understand is a natural response.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Even if there's nothing you can do to rectify the situation guilt serves no purpose. In fact, it just makes things worse. It causes you to feel bad and pass on your negativity to others and be unproductive.

You do kinda have a point. When there's nothing you can do to change the situation there's no point feeling bad and it doesn't help to pass on those bad feelings to others.

The problem is you've associated the experience of guilt with the common reaction to it and concluded that since the reaction is negative, guilt itself is a bad thing. Your final advice, to "apologize and learn from your mistake" shows that at some level you know that's not the case, that it is possible to not let the guilt be a negative influence. Unfortunately it's not a simple matter of choosing to stop feeling guilty. We can't just say, "goodbye ego, I'm never going to feel guilty again." We humans simply don't work that way, and demonising our natural responses won't change that.

Guilt is unpleasant, and it can lead to unnecessary problems for ourselves and those around us. But the guilt itself is not the cause of those problems. The cause of problems is mismanagement of guilt. The guilt is a signpost and we should pay attention to it so that we know which way to go in the future, a way which won't lead us towards more pain. You can call that path 'freeing yourself from ego' if you want, but labeling guilt 'wrong' is like blowing up the signpost before you've had a chance to notice which way it's pointing.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

What personal benefit would come from guilt?

If you stop doing what makes you feel guilty because it feels so bad, isn't that a huge benefit? And if you don't stop doing it and bad things happen, isn't that a negative result of not paying attention to the guilt? And if you don't feel guilty and nothing bad happens, isn't that a sign that what you did wasn't wrong in the first place, and not a sign that guilt itself is bad?

Can you think of anything negative that would come from the feeling of guilt itself as long as the guilty feeling was appropriate for your beliefs about the morality of your actions? In other words, can you think of any reason to suggest guilt is the problem, rather than what you try to do about that guilt?

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

How exactly do you decide what's right or wrong anyway? What form does the realisation take? Emotion. A feeling which you associate with either rejection of that which is wrong or approval of that which is right... emotion is primary.

Unfortunately it's not a simple matter of choosing to stop feeling guilty. We can't just say, "goodbye ego, I'm never going to feel guilty again." We humans simply don't work that way, and demonising our natural responses won't change that.

but labeling guilt 'wrong' is like blowing up the signpost before you've had a chance to notice which way it's pointing.

You can determine right or wrong without emotion. I never said guilt was wrong and we should never feel it again. You've read into what I said with your own thoughts. We should observe the guilt without letting it take us over, then take the appropriate action. What I understand is something you cannot know, so your comments are guesses. When I read someone's post I realize assumptions should not be made. Where you're not sure what I meant, you may ask me.

[SirBishop]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

If you stop doing what makes you feel guilty because it feels so bad, isn't that a huge benefit?
And if you don't stop doing it and bad things happen, isn't that a negative result of not paying attention to the guilt? And if you don't feel guilty and nothing bad happens, isn't that a sign that what you did wasn't wrong in the first place, and not a sign that guilt itself is bad?

Can you think of anything negative that would come from the feeling of guilt itself as long as the guilty feeling was appropriate for your beliefs about the morality of your actions? In other words, can you think of any reason to suggest guilt is the problem, rather than what you try to do about that guilt?

I myself feel guilty about things which I feel should not make me feel guilty. When I feel guilt over things which I feel should not produce guilt this leads to negative self talk and lowered self-esteem. So if I stop doing things which make me feel guilty I am really avoiding doing things which are normal and should not produce guilt in the first place and which are sometimes not even possible to avoid. To me this is negative. A perfect example is when I notice an underage girl's sexual appeal (16 years of age or what have you). This makes me feel guilty and wrong, but fact of the matter is that underage girls can still be sexually appealing. Is it something I should feel bad about? I don't think so, but I do anyways. This leads me to begin thinking there is something wrong with me mentally, when in reality it is just normal male response to stimuli.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

What I understand is something you cannot know, so your comments are guesses.

Absolutely. But educated guesses. You're welcome to correct them if they're wrong.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You can determine right or wrong without emotion.

Completely without emotion? If so, how would someone learn what's right or wrong in a way that doesn't cripple their ability to interact with other people (as in those whose ability to experience a full range of emotion is disabled by brain damage)?

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I never said guilt was wrong and we should never feel it again.

Not in those words. But the implication is clear in the words you did use. I'll highlight a few phrases to make it clearer:

Guilt serves no productive purpose to someone who's not run by ego. Once you realize your ego caused you to do something wrong, if you can do something to rectify it, you should. You should not feel guilty. It serves no purpose but to punish you for something you already realize was wrong. Even if there's nothing you can do to rectify the situation guilt serves no purpose. In fact, it just makes things worse. It causes you to feel bad and pass on your negativity to others and be unproductive. Apologize and learn from your mistake and renew your commitment to living in the now and not to be a slave to your ego.

Those are all damning statements. And while my caricature of the connotations of your words was admittedly exaggerated, it's not much of a stretch.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You've read into what I said with your own thoughts.

Indeed I did, but not only my thoughts, but the verbally expressed thoughts of others. Your words suited the framework that many other similar words and matching meanings have built. Perhaps your understanding is different to those that have come before you, but so far you haven't shown that that's the case.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

We should observe the guilt without letting it take us over, then take the appropriate action.

This is a very different statement from "you should not feel guilty". However it's the interpretation I responded to when I said you do kinda have a point. I then pointed out why that advice is inconsistent with the statements that "guilt serves no productive purpose to someone who's not run by ego" and "you should not feel guilty".

Originally Posted by SirBishop

I myself feel guilty about things which I feel should not make me feel guilty. When I feel guilt over things which I feel should not produce guilt this leads to negative self talk and lowered self-esteem. So if I stop doing things which make me feel guilty I am really avoiding doing things which are normal and should not produce guilt in the first place and which are sometimes not even possible to avoid. To me this is negative. A perfect example is when I notice an underage girl's sexual appeal (16 years of age or what have you). This makes me feel guilty and wrong, but fact of the matter is that underage girls can still be sexually appealing. Is it something I should feel bad about? I don't think so, but I do anyways. This leads me to begin thinking there is something wrong with me mentally, when in reality it is just normal male response to stimuli.

Ahh, a different situation than when your actions lead to guilt. In this case your entrenched, mostly unconscious belief that underage girls should not be seen as sexually appealing is in conflict with your belief that that attraction is natural and therefore not a bad thing. But in this situation your guilt can still highlight the beliefs which may need to change. And thankfully it's not true that this example is impossible to avoid. A focus on and experience of more acceptable forms of sexual stimulation would be likely to reduce the appeal of underage girls. Maybe not completely, but at least enough to further reduce the guilt you feel because of any lingering attraction, and though it hopefully isn't relevant, it could also reduce any small chance of acting on the attraction in a way that could hurt someone. And if the guilt continues to bother you there is always the option of professional help, the acceptance of which is in no way a confirmation that there's anything mentally wrong with you.

[SirBishop]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

A focus on and experience of more acceptable forms of sexual stimulation would be likely to reduce the appeal of underage girls. Maybe not completely, but at least enough to further reduce the guilt you feel because of any lingering attraction, and though it hopefully isn't relevant, it could also reduce any small chance of acting on the attraction in a way that could hurt someone. And if the guilt continues to bother you there is always the option of professional help, the acceptance of which is in no way a confirmation that there's anything mentally wrong with you.

I don't understand. Why would I try to avoid the appeal of underage girls? Its like I would be fighting the truth. Telling myself something isn't appealing when I know it is? If you like the taste of Pepsi, now your challenge would be I want you to not like the taste of Pepsi. How would you do such a thing? Wouldn't a better approach be "It is possible for underage girls to be sexually appealing, and I'm going to accept this fact rather than fight it."

**I have never had the urge or nor would I EVER act upon something like this. I would not feel the way I do if I wanted to act on it. Many sexual offenders do not feel bad for their intentions or actions, this is why the majority are repeat offenders.

Thanks.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Absolutely. But educated guesses. You're welcome to correct them if they're wrong.

Completely without emotion? If so, how would someone learn what's right or wrong in a way that doesn't cripple their ability to interact with other people (as in those whose ability to experience a full range of emotion is disabled by brain damage)?

Not in those words. But the implication is clear in the words you did use. I'll highlight a few phrases to make it clearer:

Those are all damning statements. And while my caricature of the connotations of your words was admittedly exaggerated, it's not much of a stretch.

Indeed I did, but not only my thoughts, but the verbally expressed thoughts of others. Your words suited the framework that many other similar words and matching meanings have built. Perhaps your understanding is different to those that have come before you, but so far you haven't shown that that's the case.

This is a very different statement from "you should not feel guilty". However it's the interpretation I responded to when I said you do kinda have a point. I then pointed out why that advice is inconsistent with the statements that "guilt serves no productive purpose to someone who's not run by ego" and "you should not feel guilty".

Ahh, a different situation than when your actions lead to guilt. In this case your entrenched, mostly unconscious belief that underage girls should not be seen as sexually appealing is in conflict with your belief that that attraction is natural and therefore not a bad thing. But in this situation your guilt can still highlight the beliefs which may need to change. And thankfully it's not true that this example is impossible to avoid. A focus on and experience of more acceptable forms of sexual stimulation would be likely to reduce the appeal of underage girls. Maybe not completely, but at least enough to further reduce the guilt you feel because of any lingering attraction, and though it hopefully isn't relevant, it could also reduce any small chance of acting on the attraction in a way that could hurt someone. And if the guilt continues to bother you there is always the option of professional help, the acceptance of which is in no way a confirmation that there's anything mentally wrong with you.

You can pick apart every word, distort it, convoluted it, distract from it... essentially argue... or you can try to understand by asking what people mean instead of accusing. You can have in the forefront of your mind "I'm going to prove I'm right." or "I want to learn from this communication." Examine your phrasing as an outside observer. While doing so, don't be thinking, "Where can I prove him wrong." Instead, try thinking, "How can I understand what he's seeing."

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by SirBishop

I don't understand. Why would I try to avoid the appeal of underage girls? Its like I would be fighting the truth. Telling myself something isn't appealing when I know it is?

It's not about fighting the truth, or denying your feelings. It's about choosing to change them if they cause problems.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

Wouldn't a better approach be "It is possible for underage girls to be sexually appealing, and I'm going to accept this fact rather than fight it."

That's it. But that's just the first step. Beyond that there is the potential to reduce their appeal so that you no longer feel any guilt. The first step accepts the truth of the situation (but while necessary, still allows the guilt to continue), the second step tries to improve it (and thus may reduce the guilt). If you like the taste of Pepsi but you know Pepsi is bad for you then developing a preference for other more healthy drinks would allow you to stop feeling guilty every time you walk down the drinks aisle.

Originally Posted by SirBishop

**I have never had the urge or nor would I EVER act upon something like this. I would not feel the way I do if I wanted to act on it. Many sexual offenders do not feel bad for their intentions or actions, this is why the majority are repeat offenders.

Unfortunately some do find ways to avoid feeling bad which also allow them to continue to offend. I'm glad you're nothing like them.

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You can pick apart every word, distort it, convoluted it, distract from it... essentially argue... or you can try to understand by asking what people mean instead of accusing. You can have in the forefront of your mind "I'm going to prove I'm right." or "I want to learn from this communication." Examine your phrasing as an outside observer. While doing so, don't be thinking, "Where can I prove him wrong." Instead, try thinking, "How can I understand what he's seeing."

And you can examine your own thoughts, feelings and words, and perhaps one day see where they don't match. I guess today isn't that day. As a proponent of ego-free existence it might do you well to try to respond to the content of my words, rather than the tone. Your suggestion is a worthy one for building strong connections between people. But it's not effective for understanding common, as opposed to individual, human experience.

[Dannyboy1]

Good luck.

[macabhay]

Whether something serves a positive or negative purpose is the only thing to deliberate. You cannot say that guilt serves no purpose. You might say that is serves no positive purpose, but there is nothing that is "purposeless".

Depending on what results from your guilt you might have a better idea of what purpose it serves in your life. If guilt drives you towards positive change then in one sense that guilt served a good purpose in your life. On the other hand, if guilt brings about doubt in yourself, depression, or lack of a feeling of self-worth, then you might say that it is a negative emotion in your life.

There is a proper place and use for guilt, putting it in that proper place and using it for the benefit of your life is what may prove to be difficult.

You may have heard the saying, "What you resist, persists". When you are feeling guilt, I would suggest not trying to push it under the surface or pretend like you are not feeling it.

Like said in a previous post by another member, accept the fact that you are feeling guilty and address why you are feeling that way. One of the most destructive things anyone can do is fake what they are feeling.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by macabhay

There is a proper place and use for guilt, putting it in that proper place and using it for the benefit of your life is what may prove to be difficult. You may have heard the saying, "What you resist, persists". When you are feeling guilt, I would suggest not trying to push it under the surface or pretend like you are not feeling it.

It serves no positive purpose to identify with the feeling of guilt. You can observe it and take action without identifying with it. It helps no one to make yourself suffer. You can observe it for what it is and let it go. You don't have to make yourself feel it because "you deserve it". No one said bottle it up, but you can observe it for what it is and realize it only does you disservice to wallow in it and let it go.

[macabhay]

Thanks Danny for pushing me to be more clear.

When I say don't push it under the surface, I simply mean to say that is in fact harmful for a person to "bottle up" an emotion or to ignore its presence. I would never suggest to identify with an emotion, but it is completely essential to be real about where you are now to be able to move on in a substantial and lasting way.

It is easy to say, "I don't feel guilty!" to give yourself a boost of morale every once in a while, but that won't inspire any real, lasting change. I would suggest for you, SirBishop, to recognize the progression. It would be beneficial in my opinion to be honest with yourself.

1. This is what happened.
2. Guilt is the emotion that rose from that occurrence.
3. Here is what I am going to do with that feeling of guilt.

There is no place for wallowing in an emotion unnecessarily, but it is not beneficial to ignore an emotion either.

Danny, I agree that you do not have to identify with the emotion of guilt in the way that you seem to be describing the word "identify". However, I do feel that it is necessary to identify with guilt in the sense of recognizing that, "I am the one who brought this guilt -- through my thoughts, actions, etc. -- upon myself, therefore I have the power to move on from it and live in such a way that guilt is no longer a part of my life". Identifying in that sense can definitely prove to be beneficial in life.

[Mark Lapierre]

Well said macabhay!