If I followed your advice, I would have no friends.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

This is exactly why I do NOT like LOA and IM: It is all about believing that you will succeed, instead of trying to succeed. It encourages people to stop trying.

In fact, LOA/IM is the only thing that can give you what you (foolishly) want now. The only difference between a funny guy and a non-funny guy is what goes on between their ears.

And what goes on between their ears is what IM/LOA is all about.

The problem with personality is that it's so hard-wired into the space between your ears that tweaking it is not easy, even with LOA/IM. It's nop different from a homosexual person trying to undergo therapy to become straight.

Not worth the trouble! Accept yourself, and grow. That is the better way.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

So. It doesn't matter. As long as the girls are entertained, they don't mind someone who only dances at 85% of the level of someone else. Give a girl the quality dance of her life and then an extremely fun dance with someone closer to her level, even if it's sloppy, she will always return to the person closer to her level. The pressure isn't there.

My skill (not only in dance) makes women feel threatened. These guys make sure the girl feels safe and secure. I don't have that ability. If it's a skill, I have been trying to achieve it for years. But women still feel threatened.

Oh, whatever. Tell you what - go and try to be funny, boisterous, fun, loud, sociable, extroverted, entertaining, whatever, ok.

Come back here in six months and tell us how you fared.

If Einstein can be stupid, then you will succeed.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Give a girl the quality dance of her life

Could it perhaps be that this is not what the girl needs from you? She doesn't want to have the most skillfully executed three minutes of her life... she wants to have a fun little swirl with a nice guy like yourself!

The most important skill in dancing is the skill to make your partner enjoy the dance!

[SmartAlx]

That's exactly what I'm trying to say Jim.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Oh, whatever. Tell you what - go and try to be funny, boisterous, fun, loud, sociable, extroverted, entertaining, whatever, ok.

Dude, I already said twice that I'm not trying to be those things. Just that I want to be able to compete with them.

[kpollock]

With the salsa, it sounds to me like you ought to start your own class... "people skills", i.e. being likeable is a big part of teaching, though (as I know, not having been all that great myself). You probably realise that a lot of people take something up "just for fun". Their actual aim is the socialisation, they aren't 'serious' about the learning/getting good. They seem to manage to enjoy it even if they don't know much about it, or are not actually very good. That's not why they are there.... no I don't understand that AT ALL, but you must have seen it as much as I have. Maybe your class would be known as the one where you go if you are serious about getting good!

hmm, maybe social skills are like psychomotor learning (something it took me AGES to 'get'). Just because you know all the moves to make 'in your head' doesn't mean you can make your whole self perform them (as I am sure you have found). You have to physically practice them over and over and over to make it fluent and fluid - you can't "over-control" from the brain - it makes you stiff and jerky and slightly off-time, right? (I don't dance but I did karate for many years, archery, sailing... and found the same with each).

People are extremely sensitive to body language, it's a big part of communication - and they subtly and subconsciously react to tension, or anything off-kilter. I had problems for years because I came across as agressive from my bearing and body language (especially because I was a woman it was extra-unexpected). I am quite differnt to you though - I DO interrupt a lot :-).

I have great respect for the quieter, thoughtful guys, they often come out with really interesting things - but us chatterboxes have to learn to slow down and listen....

As people said - join clubs for things that interest you. Your ability to get into the details and learn everything there is to know about a topic will be useful both to you and to others. I have certainly found that with say, sailing. There are some people who, though they are a maybe sometimes a little 'odd' in manner, are always good to talk to, as you know you can ask them something and they will know/think about it/help out. Talking to people about a mutually fascinating topic is about 1000 x better than smalltalk anyday....

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by kpollock

With the salsa, it sounds to me like you ought to start your own class... "people skills", i.e. being likable is a big part of teaching though (as I know, not having been all that great myself).

Precisely. This is what I thought when I first became an assistant. I thought God put me in a place that would enable me to practice these skills. But now it seems as if the studio will never give me a class. The woman in charge of the salsa program is grooming the same boisterous guys to be the next teachers. The tango class is hilarious. He learns a move/pattern from a real Argentinian tango dancer elsewhere and takes it to our studio where he teaches it to his students. They really aren't learning anything practical. If they went to Argentina and tried to dance there, they would not even have fun. But they don't care. All they care about is having fun now. That's OK though. But I feel that the teacher should have some competency in what it is he is teaching.

And as far as teaching elsewhere is concerned, nothing doing. There is faaar too much competition in Houston. If I don't teach where I'm at (where the pressure to be a great dancer is not very high) then I won't be teaching anywhere.

You probably realize that a lot of people take something up "just for fun". Their actual aim is the socialisation, they aren't 'serious' about the learning/getting good. They seem to manage to enjoy it even if they don't know much about it, or are not actually very good. That's not why they are there.... no I don't understand that AT ALL, but you must have seen it as much as I have.

I understand it completely. The dance studio has made a name for itself catering to these people.

Maybe your class would be known as the one where you go if you are serious about getting good!

There is already a studio dedicated to that. Houston's top dancers teach there. I'm not good enough of a dancer to teach there. I'm one of the best at my studio, but I would only be a mid-range student at their studio.

People are extremely sensitive to body language, it's a big part of communication - and they subtly and subconsciously react to tension, or anything off-kilter.

This is true. It's something that I've been working on for years.

I have great respect for the quieter, thoughtful guys, they often come out with really interesting things - but us chatterboxes have to learn to slow down and listen....

But rarely do learn your lesson.

As people said - join clubs for things that interest you. Your ability to get into the details and learn everything there is to know about a topic will be useful both to you and to others. I have certainly found that with say, sailing. There are some people who, though they are a maybe sometimes a little 'odd' in manner, are always good to talk to, as you know you can ask them something and they will know/think about it/help out. Talking to people about a mutually fascinating topic is about 1000 x better than smalltalk anyday....

I like sailing too. No one cares though. We went to this boardwalk thing this weekend and sailing came up. No one seemed interested. I bring up how much I love sailing, but no one seems to care that it's fun. They would rather go motor-boating. I guess sailing seems like it's too much work? Or you have to think too much. Or that you can't go fast? LOL. Suckers. Speed is an illusion. A small catamaran can feel faster than a speedboat, even though it moves much slower.

Honestly there isn't much that I could get passionate about anymore. Salsa is it for now. Maybe sailing, but I can't afford it. I thought I could get into Tango for awhile. I even met a whole new group of friends that were really quite cool. But it became obvious that there were established boisterous interesting multi-talented (possibly Type 5 - but talkative) guys in place already. And they were waaay above my skill level. Tango is much harder than salsa and I would have had to really try to become good. And since these fun tango dancers had a monopoly on all of the girls who could educate me, it would be very very difficult to get good since I would have to learn with girls who wouldn't know enough to give me any feedback.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

The thing is, people that I meet, those who would get along with never get a chance to find out how compatible we are. There is one girl who just entered our group, via meeting me. Interesting... I always bring new people to the group and the group always takes over our relationship. She and I are EXTREMELY similar, same values, same beliefs, same personality, even both Architects, yet she doesn't know it because all of the loud and boisterous people are so much fun and I just sink into the shadows. The loud and boisterous people are very quick to add new people to the group and make them come out of THEIR shell, but they ignore me now and get in the way of the new people finding out about me.

I know what you are thinking. Don't bring the new girl into the group. The group are my friends, so why wouldn't I want them meeting? And secondly, since I am quiet and don't know what to say (do you remember this story I told you about the beautiful guys only getting one date because they are boring?) there is NO way that I would get these compatible people into my life at all. I tried to get this one girl to come to church. She said no... to me. But she did go to church with US yesterday, because the boisterous guy asked her.
Why are you all so quick to make me dump my best friends???

If you don't want to dump your friends, don't dump your friends.

From what I can see, you lack alignment with power. Doesn't matter why you do (at least, for the moment), but it seems you do.

If I brought over a woman who was like-minded and compatible with me to my group of friends and they kind of absorbed her, whenever I spot an opportunity--a break in the "absorbing"--I'd walk up to her and ask her if she'd like to do something (i.e. perhaps join me at a local event, depending on whether we have compatible activities we're involved in) or talk privately.

A few months ago a girl from Germany visited my Toastmasters club. I was still very green back then and not President and Secretary of two clubs, respectively, so I was largely unrermarkable (at least, I was just a regular member; nothing really made me stand out, although I think I might have done a speech; honestly can't remember).

So anyway, at the end of the meeting, I went up to her and spoke with her. She was busy speaking with someone else before hand, but as soon as I got the chance, I just walked right up with her. I wasn't worried about how I was going to come across--I was more interested in interacting with someone who seemed interesting and like someone I'd like to talk to and get to know further. It seemed pretty cool to keep in contact with someone from Germany--don't get that opportunity every day.

Long story short, I got her email address. A few days later, I invited her to attend a dinner meeting at my other Toastmasters club since she was interested in checking out the local Toastmasters clubs of the various countries she visits. It was honestly pretty short notice, and effective communication via phone and email was pretty difficult due to availability and other circumstances, but I did my best to invite her and see if she would come along, and then just let whatever would end up happening happen. Key point: I did my best. No need to force or resist things.

When I arrived at the dinner meeting, there she was sitting and talking with all my Toastmasters friends.

She's gone back to Germany since then, but I still keep in contact with her to this day (which reminds me; I should email her again!).

You said in your first post that you were devoid of all these qualities you think you needed, but perhaps the only qualities you really need are the ones you have, and you just need to align with them instead of disacknowledging them and trying to replace them with what you think you need. Perhaps you have a legitimate need for certain skills and knowledge, and in which case, it's up to you to go get it. They're not just going to fall into your lap, and you're issues aren't going to get any more ideal by default (well, they might get a bit better, but it's mostly up to randomness--you don't want to bet on randomness).

In another one of your posts you said:

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

And let it knock me over? No thank you.

Your metaphor is backwards. Consider one person being stronger. He naturally pushes harder. The other person must push hard just to KEEP the balance. If the stronger one says, "you are pushing too hard so I'm going to push even harder," THEN your situation comes up, but ONLY after the stronger person tries to offset the balance. It is the person who pushes to offset the balance that is in the wrong. I only resist what would knock me over. I resist to KEEP the balance.

If a circumstance, a personality trait, or a person is TRYING to push me over and I do not fight it then I will fall over. I HAVE to keep fighting or I get run over. Is this so hard to understand?

Consider that your thinking that you *have* to push against something is the very thing keeping you from embracing your power--power that would let more effectively have the influence and impact you'd like.

This doesn't mean that you should be passive. No; this means that you should actively let whatever is pushing against you essentially "pass through you." You might find that you don't need to push against whatever you're pushing against in the first place.

You might find that you do, in which case you need to do whatever you think is right for you.

You're the authority in your life, not anyone else. Stop giving other people and skills and subsets of knowledge power over yourself and instead embrace your power, and move towards what you need. This is a very active practice, and has nothing to do with passivity. Exercising courage is not passive. Maintaining your self alignment is not passive. Aligning with your power is not passive. These are all things we're your actively doing something internally. The external manifestations might not be too significant, but there is a depth of power to them, or at least, a different energy that will produce different results. Don't let anybody accuse you, least of all yourself, of you doing nothing. Take responsibility for your life and do what you feel is right.

(Oh, and hurry up and say, "oh, I get it now." I don't think I can maintain this level of insightfulness much longer. )

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

If you don't want to dump your friends, don't dump your friends.

From what I can see, you lack alignment with power. Doesn't matter why you do (at least, for the moment), but it seems you do.

You all are not going to get anywhere with this new age gobbledygook with me. So if that's all you have to give, you might as well stop trying.

If I brought over a woman who was like-minded and compatible with me to my group of friends and they kind of absorbed her, whenever I spot an opportunity--a break in the "absorbing"--I'd walk up to her and ask her if she'd like to do something

Umm... did you even read what you quoted? I told you that I tried this and she turned me down. Introducing her to my friends is the only way that I can have any chance of her getting to know me without being too much of a threat to her.

You said in your first post that you were devoid of all these qualities you think you needed, but perhaps the only qualities you really need are the ones you have, and you just need to align with them instead of disacknowledging them and trying to replace them with what you think you need. Perhaps you have a legitimate need for certain skills and knowledge, and in which case, it's up to you to go get it. They're not just going to fall into your lap

Isn't that exactly what I was saying in my OP?

[Angela]

Wow! I'm listening to you, and it's really interesting it's easy for us to see how very hard you are fighting for your limitations, and from your perspective, these limitations are so REAL! So inarguably present! Yes! These forces exist that are trying to push me over and that is the truth and that is how it is! Why can't you people SEE that?!

Well, we can see it alright (forgive me folks, for speaking in the Royal We -- but I can hear you hearing this). We can see that by you telling this story and believing it as if the truth, it actually IS the truth for you. There really ARE forces trying to push you over. What we can also see is that you are creating for others exactly the condition that you hope to overcome for yourself -- that is, you are a force that pushes over. Women are threatened not by your skill as a dancer, but by the feeling that you are a force that wants to push them over. The woman at church said no to you but yes to your friends because she didn't feel good or supported being with you, but she did feel good or supported being with your friends. Consider that you are generating this lack of feeling good and being supported all over your life -- for yourself and for others.

When Bruce gave you his very loving advice with a commitment to making a difference for you, you pushed him over with:

You all are not going to get anywhere with this new age gobbledygook with me. So if that's all you have to give, you might as well stop trying.

You started off this thread this way: "What should I do?" and "I am lucky I don't follow your advice!" and incidentally, you want to be "less jerky."

In other words, you started off this very thread, and have followed through consistently, by being a force that wants to push people over. People who really desire to make a positive difference for you -- people who are actively pulling for you to get everything you want and more!

Don't worry -- it's normal. Everyone's limiting belief has them creating for others the very thing they want to avoid in their own life. It's uncanny. Yours is very boldly apparent, I think because you have the courage to work it out here, publicly and outspokenly. Good for you! Does it surprise you to see all this mirrored for you? You resist being pushed over, and you do your own pushing over, and then you experience more being pushed over! More and more and more. Being funny is just more pushing over. I've known funny people like that -- Pushers. I avoid them. They're better to watch in video than to be friends with.

I think, because you have taught me to think, that you will feel pushed by this post, and you may continue to resist what we say and to push back, even though we're pushing FOR you, not against you. Although I think it will be very difficult for you to hear this: I wish you everything you really want in life (not the stuff you're committed to, e.g. the pushing over, but the stuff your essential self is after, like love and peace and connection and joy). The approaches so far haven't allowed this to penetrate your skull yet -- that we are on your side, and wish you the greatest things in life -- so I'm taking this other tack.

Have you ever taken a course in Ju Jitsu? The most powerful practicers will tell you that the way to personal power is by moving WITH power, not against it.

Best wishes to you.

[Holistic Star]

Oh we think alike Angela, I'd just typed my reply before reading yours!

*****

With the metaphor of 2 people pushing against each other and you think that if you didn't resist then you would be pushed over.

Dude - You have to find a martial arts class where you can find out how you use the other person's force to pull them over leaving you standing! You don't resist the pushing, you use it to your advantage.

That's what acceptance is about.

Which is more powerful?

Resistance:
"They were wrong to fire me, I shouldn't have lost my job."

or Acceptance:
"I've lost my job... What skills would I like to do next?"


or in your case:

Resistance:
"My friends shouldn't be so loud, funny and attractive to women.'

or Acceptance:
'My friends are loud funny and attractive to women. What can I learn from them and what can I do so that women get to know the real me?'


or Resistance:
"I have to compete against my friends for female attention."

or Acceptance
"Sometimes if feels like a competition for attention with my friends. How can I get them onside to help me find a girlfriend?'


Have you told your friends how you feel? Have you told them that you want a relationship?
How about a conversation where you tell them that you are looking for someone special and if they know anyone they think you would like to let you know.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

Which is more powerful?

Resistance:
"They were wrong to fire me, I shouldn't have lost my job."

or Acceptance:
"I've lost my job... What skills would I like to do next?"


or in your case:

Resistance:
"My friends shouldn't be so loud, funny and attractive to women.'

or Acceptance:
'My friends are loud funny and attractive to women. What can I learn from them and what can I do so that women get to know the real me?'


or Resistance:
"I have to compete against my friends for female attention."

or Acceptance
"Sometimes if feels like a competition for attention with my friends. How can I get them onside to help me find a girlfriend?'


Have you told your friends how you feel? Have you told them that you want a relationship?
How about a conversation where you tell them that you are looking for someone special and if they know anyone they think you would like to let you know.

I have been doing all of this ever since I met these guys, over 3 years ago. I do take lessons from them. They are on my side (sortof). I do listen to them. They do give me advice/encouragement. And they both try to help me with the girls. One of them gets so caught up being the center of attention though that he inadvertently takes the girl's attention away, exactly what I ask him not to do. The other one stays focused better, like asking her informative questions and inviting her to do things that would allow her to learn more about me. But he is usually sabotaged by some of the girls in the group who are too jealous/protective to let new attractive girls in the group. I would probably be better off without these girls in the group, but they are my friends. But what kind of friends are they? Anyway, despite these guys being mostly on my side, you just can't fight human nature. Women are attracted to them, if not romantically, at least so platonically that they stop looking at me at all.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

No. I'm telling you that lacking the ability to compete with entertaining people DOES push me back. IT is causing the imbalance and I DO have to fight in order to stay upright.

Then I'll take this approach. I am like you, but I am a girl. When I was younger, theoretically, I would have had to compete for boys' attention. I would sit and watch the sugar-coated crap oozing off these girls onto a bunch of sugar-lusting boys. In more practical terms, I would watch girls flirting and donning a really pretentious facade and that won the attention of the boys. I felt bad, yes. I felt bad because I wanted their attention too, but nobody even saw me. It made me feel bad and worthless, and because I am so adverse to competition, I never partook in what looked like a bunch of superficial and empty nonsense to me. I didn't want to compete and I didn't. I knew I couldn't win in that game, because it went against my very grain. In the end, I didn't fare any better than you, because I felt bitter and rejected by those boys and perpetually looked down upon by these weird, idiotically giddy girls. The girls being completely false in order to be fawned over by the boys, and the boys eating up the falsity like they were starving. I didn't want any part of either one, but because I thought this was society, I became bitter instead of participating.

The truth is, though, there are different boys/men and girls/women out there than those particular ones and some will suit your manner of relating much better. But as long as you stay with ones that make you feel bad about yourself in one way or another, either like I did, or by being obligated to feign some sort of personality, you won't ever find people who really suit you, and you won't find yourself either.

I was curious from the start...I spend a lot of time alone and I have found I prefer that to being with the average person--I was wondering what you have against being alone more than you are now? Do you need to have friends all the time? Are you afraid or unwilling for some reason to be just in peace and quiet with yourself? Just curious...

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Angela

Best wishes to you.

Damn you're good!

Sorry. I just had to say that. It was a very clear answer and I loved it!

Back on topic.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

The truth is, though, there are different boys/men and girls/women out there than those particular ones and some will suit your manner of relating much better. But as long as you stay with ones that make you feel bad about yourself in one way or another, either like I did, or by being obligated to feign some sort of personality, you won't ever find people who really suit you, and you won't find yourself either.

I'm telling you that these ARE girls like this. I'm not interested in boisterous, obnoxious, flirty, fast women. I'm interested in conservative, quiet, demure, intelligent women. But EVERYBODY... 100% of all people in the world like funny fun people. It doesn't matter who you are or what your personality is. These guys are liked by EVERYBODY. And I can not get the attention of the girls that would like me if they got to know me. I have been in more relationships than these guys since I've known them, but none of the relationships panned out because the girl and I were just too different. I keep meeting compatible girls, but they never get to know me.

See the deal is that the girls that are compatible with me typically aren't actively looking for relationships. I have been getting together with girls who are looking for relationships, but we quickly find that we aren't compatible. But just because a girl isn't looking for a relationship doesn't mean she won't keep her dream guy when she does find him. In fact, most women do meet their husband when they are not looking. All I want is to show these girls that what could be thier dream guy is right in front of them. If they aren't ready to commit, then I am patient, as long as they keep me in their lives. When they are ready and open to a relationship, I want to be there. But when they befriend my buddies, they monopolize their time. The girls spread themselves so thin that they don't have any remaining time to see me or talk on the phone, even as a friend. They never get to know me. Then they do get to the point that they want a relationship and I'm nowhere around. Then they get into the dead end relationships, get their hearts crushed and end up distrusting men. They end up changing so much that when they finally do get to know me, we are no longer compatible. Had they gotten to know me in the first place, they wouldn't have gotten into relationships and had their hearts broken and they wouldn't have distrusted men so much because they would have been with me. It's such a waste.

I find that I am having to keep reminding y'all that I'm not trying to become the center of attention or the life of the party. I just want to be able to have something that will allow me to compete with my buddies when we go out with the new girls so I don't just sink into the shadows and so the girls who are compatible with me will find out just how great of a person I am. I can think of at least 4 girls in the past few years who are a perfect match for me, and for whom I am a perfect match. But they never got a chance to get to know me because they stuck with my buddies. Now they are wasting their time with dead end relationships with incompatible guys, and they won't look twice in my direction.

I was curious from the start...I spend a lot of time alone and I have found I prefer that to being with the average person--I was wondering what you have against being alone more than you are now? Do you need to have friends all the time? Are you afraid or unwilling for some reason to be just in peace and quiet with yourself? Just curious

Im just sick of it. I've been alone my whole life. I'm not needed and I can't stand it.

[carenkh]

Maybe you could ask these girls why they're not with you.

I have a feeling it's NOT that they're so overwhelmed with laughter and fun that they don't see you. I think they see you - they just don't like you. If you're ready for the truth, ask them why not.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by carenkh

Maybe you could ask these girls why they're not with you.

I know why. They don't know me. And they aren't ready to be with anybody right now. If they meet someone really great, they will open up, but not until they are convinced that I am a catch will they open up to me. I'm one of those guys that you have to get to know to find out how great he is.

You can't tell a girl that you are compatible. It's something they have to find out slowly over time. If I went and told this girl that I think that we are perfect for each other, that will creep her out.

[Angela]

So why don't you ask a girl out on a nice date, rather than inviting her to join your group?

If a guy's first invitation to me was to join in on a group happening, I wouldn't immediately see him as a contender for his affections. In fact, I'd look forward to seeing if I'd meet a man among the group who would connect and engage with me, and that first guy might get relegated to "just friends" status.

[z1freeride]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I'm telling you that these ARE girls like this. I'm not interested in boisterous, obnoxious, flirty, fast women. I'm interested in conservative, quiet, demure, intelligent women. But EVERYBODY... 100% of all people in the world like funny fun people. It doesn't matter who you are or what your personality is. These guys are liked by EVERYBODY. And I can not get the attention of the girls that would like me if they got to know me. I have been in more relationships than these guys since I've known them, but none of the relationships panned out because the girl and I were just too different. I keep meeting compatible girls, but they never get to know me

....


I find that I am having to keep reminding y'all that I'm not trying to become the center of attention or the life of the party. I just want to be able to have something that will allow me to compete with my buddies when we go out with the new girls so I don't just sink into the shadows and so the girls who are compatible with me will find out just how great of a person I am. I can think of at least 4 girls in the past few years who are a perfect match for me, and for whom I am a perfect match. But they never got a chance to get to know me because they stuck with my buddies. Now they are wasting their time with dead end relationships with incompatible guys, and they won't look twice in my direction.
Im just sick of it. I've been alone my whole life. I'm not needed and I can't stand it.

It sounds like if you want something to have that you can use to compete, you are going to have to develop it. Do you feel like you can develop upon your sense of humor?

Back in the day, I was only somewhat witty and humorous. Over the years, I learned to develop it. I learned to basically lie to people. Telling people you're a hand model instead of web programmer usually ends up in a more humorous situation (this all depends on who I am with of course). I didn't necessarily change who I was, I just improved my existing skills. Exaggeration and acting are also forms of lying and can be used for humor. I also learned how to tease and poke fun of people (after I have built somewhat of a rapport). It seems that when a person is being teased and they know it's in jest, then they feel more accepted. I've noticed this helps in breaking the ice.


Also, you seem very open and talkative online. But you say you aren't in real life. What is the difference? You say that it is because of anonymity. Well, it's because you don't care what we think, right? You don't feel like we need to approve of what you say. Has there ever been a situation in real life where you are as open as you are online? What were the factors that lead to that situation?

[Parthon]

4 days and 80 posts, and you still don't get it. *sigh*

Everything you know is USELESS!

Forget everything you know, forget all the barriers you have, and all those things you are sure of. Forget everything you know about other people, women, men and yourself. Forget everything you know about being funny, interesting, smart and friendly. Forget everything you know.

Why? BECAUSE IT'S NOT WORKING.

Then start again fresh, and look at what actually does work. It's the only way to get anywhere.

ps. Girls like guys that are funny, but they prefer genuine, honest, friendly and nice to funny.

[Lauxa]

Hey there SmartAlex, don't know why but this thread has been on my mind a lot in the last few days.

It is interesting that you come onto a self-improvement forum and start right off by saying that you don't want to follow any advice that you receive here. Accusing the people here that we accept ourselves and don't want to change anything, where I think that 99% of the people here are here because we want to improve ourselves in some way.

I get what ALG is saying, that if you want to compete in entertainment you are going to have to compete by developing a skill. For instance, I like to juggle. So I can do my juggling thing and be moderately entertaining, especially juggling to music. People always want to talk to entertainers, so I get conversations attracted to me without having to be boisterous. There are other entertainment skills that could substitute -- music, sketch art, or magic tricks to name a few. Then also, I can go hang out with other juggling nerds and be totally in my element.

But I am wondering... have you found anything yet that allows you to compete with your more rowdy friends?

The other thing I keep thinking is that you should go join that more advanced salsa club, you will probably improve much faster.

Finally, that girl you like, the architect, why not ask her on a date? Okay, she said no the first time you asked her to church, but now she's seen you a bit more, knows your friends, maybe she would feel safer now. If she says no, take Caren's advice and ask her why she doesn't like you. Maybe she will tell you that you are not funny enough, but maybe something else will come up.

[amandalynne]

They say that you should be yourself and accept yourself for who you are...

^Who says that?

Have you read this article?

But these are the core of who I am. And they define someone that I do not want to be.

^No they're not. That's the point.

But I am still quiet. I'm not sure that it was learned though. I have always been quiet. It REALLLLY is my nature.

^Being quiet is my nature, too...but part of growing up is learning how to be outgoing when the situation calls for it. You can't connect with people if you don't open up.

I know why. They don't know me.

^You keep saying "they don't know me"...so why don't you make an effort to "get to know" these girls? Be more persistent. Be more confident. Girls like to be pursued, and they like to be entertained...that's why everyone likes funny people!

You don't have to be loudest guy at the party to get a girl... you just have to win them over in another way.

[amandalynne]

Thank you Christianity for showing me the healthy way of being. Jesus Christ is my example and his perfection as my example ensures that I will continue to grow until the day I go to meet Him.

^ (Were you being serious, or sarcastic?

Because from the stories I've heard, Jesus didn't exactly get a lot of ladies...


...Maybe you should pick a new idol?)

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Angela

So why don't you ask a girl out on a nice date, rather than inviting her to join your group?

I don't have much success asking strangers out on a date. In fact, it's never worked out for me. But getting to know the girl before I ask her out does improve the odds.

If a guy's first invitation to me was to join in on a group happening, I wouldn't immediately see him as a contender for his affections. In fact, I'd look forward to seeing if I'd meet a man among the group who would connect and engage with me, and that first guy might get relegated to "just friends" status.

This is an interesting perspective. So you are saying that if I met a girl at a salsa class on a Saturday and I want to hang out with her that night, I shouldn't tell her, "hey, we all are going to Jax's Grill. Wanna come?" If I don't invite her to the group event that night, then I generally get a no to a one on one that night, even to a salsa club. But about half the time they say yes to joining in the group thing. The thing is, we in the group are so tight, it's odd when one of us doesn't go with the group. It's just a different kind of situation, so I'm not sure. But maybe you are onto something. I wonder if my desire to get to know her so fast is enabling her to get closer to my buddies. Hmm... I'll have to think about it next time. Hopefully there won't be a next time though. The architect girl and I are still getting to know one another and my buddies haven't monopolized her yet. If I get this new job I'm praying for I'll work right across the freeway from her and we could maybe have lunch sometime. Much more casual than a dinner date. But it will be a while before we get anything started. She has a lot going on in her life right now. The good thing about that is that knowing her situation I can sit back and not get jealous while I watch all of the salsa players try to hit on her and know that they are not a threat. She's not ready. Hopefully they won't have the patience that I have. It's almost a good thing that she's not ready. When she gets settled, maybe she will be ready, and I'll be right there.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by z1freeride

It sounds like if you want something to have that you can use to compete, you are going to have to develop it. Do you feel like you can develop upon your sense of humor?

I can be funny sometimes. When I am with a different group of friends who aren't so obnoxious I do open up a bit more. I also sometimes do teach the salsa class and I can be funny in there too. I seriously considered taking an improvisational comedy class. I'm sure it wouldn't only help me in expressing my funny side in general, it will also really help my salsa teaching skills. It's expensive though and I don't have a job yet. After I get a job I'm planning on taking the class.

Back in the day, I was only somewhat witty and humorous. Over the years, I learned to develop it. I learned to basically lie to people. Telling people you're a hand model instead of web programmer usually ends up in a more humorous situation (this all depends on who I am with of course). I didn't necessarily change who I was, I just improved my existing skills. Exaggeration and acting are also forms of lying and can be used for humor. I also learned how to tease and poke fun of people (after I have built somewhat of a rapport). It seems that when a person is being teased and they know it's in jest, then they feel more accepted. I've noticed this helps in breaking the ice.

Good advice. Thanks. I don't like lying to the girls I'm interested in. In fact, I take great pride in that I do not ever lie to them. But maybe if they know that I'm lying... the hand model thing. That would be great. And I don't have the prettiest hands. Mind if I use it? LOL

Also, you seem very open and talkative online. But you say you aren't in real life. What is the difference? You say that it is because of anonymity. Well, it's because you don't care what we think, right? You don't feel like we need to approve of what you say. Has there ever been a situation in real life where you are as open as you are online? What were the factors that lead to that situation?

It's really not that I'm anonymous. It's that I have time to formulate my answers and I don't get interrupted and walked all over.

[Acting Like Godot]

Finally I see some glimmer of understanding ...

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I also sometimes do teach the salsa class and I can be funny in there too.

....... Yes, your nature is Type 5. You relate best to people, when they and you come together in one of your expertise areas.

In your case, salsa. Which means that you are comfortable with people when you dance salsa, teach salsa, talk salsa with them.

You DON'T relate well to people, when you don't have an expertise area in play. This ISN'T as limiting as it may sound, because a healthy Type 5 will have MANY expertise areas and therefore MANY ways to relate well to other people.

I seriously considered taking an improvisational comedy class.

Yes, of course you did. I already alluded to this earlier. I said that for a Type 5 to be funny, he would have to learn to be funny, in the Type 5 way. Like, get a book of jokes; memorise jokes; rehearse in front of the mirror; memorise the 7 principles of highly effective joke-telling etc.

Or take an improvisational comedy class.

[kpollock]

On the sailing front, it needn't be expensive - if you like yachts as well as dinghies, there are often people quite keen to have someone along to help crew - a lot of guys wives/families aren's as into it as they are, or people who are getting on a bit and would appreciate a fit young man to help out. In the UK, I'd have lots of recommendations on hoe to do this, but I don't know how it works in the US. I have picked up that sailing clubs might be a bit stuffier and harder to join. Maybe put a card up in marinas etc.?

Over here you can get dinghy for a few hundred pounds (or spend as much as you have!), join a club at a lake or something for maybe a hundred or so a year and even keep your dinghy there. Don't have to start with the superfast racing cats... can be plenty of competition more modest classes...

For the salsa - how good would you have to be (in your own estimation) to run a class? How long would that take? If you really wanted to do it, and Houston is so competitive - would you move somewhere else to run one?

[Brutha]

What does it mean to be funny?
Having fun.

How do you give a girl the feeling of security?
By feeling secure yourself. If you feel fear that something doesn't go as you planned girls pick up that feeling and won't feel that they get security from you.

Whether it's security or being fun you have to ways:
1) Faking a sense of security or being fun.
2) Actually feeling security and feeling fun.

Both ways can lead to success. I think that 2) is the better way.
To feel fun in a situation you have to accept yourself.
To feel security you have to accept the results that you are getting.

If you feel insecurity that feeling will reduce your ability to open up.

If you want someone else to feel a certain emotion it's a good idea to go first and feel that emotion strongly.
The way to get effective emotions is to accept yourself.
If you are authentic your brain will reduce the emotions that will change what you act in a way that people around you will be more likely to rate you as funny.

[JirQUEST]

I read the first page, and decided that the rest of the pages were too long for me to spend much time on it (when I could be self improving)

I used to be like you, dude. I was really quiet, and even till today, I am not the noisiest in the group. But that's okay. I am fine with it. I think "be yourself" is THE appropriate answer. The problem is, most people are not being themselves. All this self improvement, after coming such a long way, has made me realise that it's not about becoming a better me, or however you want to say that. It is about removing the obstacles I see in front of me to becoming my true self.

That being said, it's great to see that you are taking action steps

[SaraLee]

Alex, going back to your first post and talking about accepting yourself - accepting yourself simply means talking a realistic look at who you are…the pros and cons… and saying “yes this is what I am like”. It is a reality check and you have done that. As for needing to “love yourself as you presently are”, I find that unrealistic advice because if a person is unhappy, there isn’t a switch in the mind that can be turned off or on. But you can encourage yourself to step out of your comfort zone and find ways to improve your social skills and find the idea likeable (excite yourself with anticipation) and as you begin to challenge yourself you may come to love the results.

For now, put aside your evaluations about outside forces like friends who are over powering in their social skills or women who leave you standing alone, and search out opportunities, classes, groups, etc. to self improve and take action.

Excite yourself with the possibility of self-improvement and go for it.