My returning social issues..

[moriez]

Hi all,

I hope you can take your time to advice me on an issue I have been struggling with for a long time. I will try to describe it as complete as possible. After several experiences Ive come to the conclusion that I have major difficulties in certain social sitiuations. I really feel the need to do something about it as it would make me feel more alive and less bagaged. Two major things:

1) In groups of people I darent speak freely unless someone asks me something. Im afraid of pulling attention to me. Afraid that Im not good or smart enough and might get disapproved of. Afraid to say or do something that perhaps deviates from the groups standards. While being in a group I think a lot about all this and get even more introverted making it a suffocating experience. I cannot even think of something to say because my mind is so clouded. I find myself in the background, small, not me, listening a bit, thinking a bit but not really taking part with an open mind which I would like. I have to say that Im also quite clouded when I am just with one person but to a much lesser extend. I guess towards "only" one person I look less of a fool and cant fall as deep as I could in front of a group.

2) I really, really cannot stand it when someone tells me to do something. The problem is especially in work situations where a (more experienced) co-worker or a supervisor tells me to do something. Immediately my first thought is to tell that person to **** off. It just remains a thought and I do it anyway but there I go: I get annoyed with them but keep it to myself, tiring myself and once again going down with a clouded mind making the day much harder. It has a lot to do with how someone tells or asks me to do something. I want to hear a "please" or "could you" but Im afraid that I will get heat for saying that (as I already experienced). The work relation then gets worse which I in turn cant live with. Eventually I spiral down into me wanting to leave the job.

Both situations I either avoid or run away from. I know I would just be much better off and a completer person if I could deal with it in a good way. Im thinking of doing a course, maybe in assertiveness. I cannot get any closer to the main problem than it being one related to assertivity.

Guys, fire up some suggestions please and thanks for reading.

[Lauxa]

I have the same problems and hope someone will have some good ideas.

On the first one, I've been told that I should be focusing on the other people and not myself, but it's very difficult for me to do. It has helped me a little to just imagine the feelings of really connecting with people when I start to feel like I am shutting down and withdrawing. I can ask myself "If I were feeling really good and connected with these people, how would that feel?" and that helps move me to a better place.

[drummbellina]

Are you me??!! lol

I feel exactly the same. To deal with the second one I decided to work for myself so I could be my own boss. For the first one I suppose I just remember that no-one can read my mind so if I act confident thay won't know any different. I've actually gained a lot of real confidence by doing that over the years! Also remind yourself that everyone else (well mostly) is more bothered about themselves and how THEY are coming across.

[z1freeride]

moriez-

I struggle with the same things. So this is what I'm doing to fix #1:

I believe that you and I have a need to impress or a need for approval. "Needs" are desires that require fulfillment by someone or something else. These "needs" are hard to fulfill because there's no telling whether someone will be impressed or not. When the need isn't fulfilled, we experience a negative emotion. So we subconsciously take the safe route: don't say anything and that will guarantee that the need to impress won't result in a negative emotion.

So it's not good enough to try to focus on getting rid of the need. You have to replace it with other desires that are easier to fulfill. In social situations, I try to focus on: being nice, asking questions, using "in my opinion", utilizing small talk.

Take a look at this article: How I Stopped Being Needy

As for #2:

I think it's annoying because in my mind it implies that they think I'm not capable of figuring out that that task needs to be done. Or it implies that I don't take the initiative and that I'm lazy. This means that they don't approve of me or my actions. Again, there's the need to impress or the need for approval. So just like #1, switch your focus. Focus on keeping the workplace clean and efficient, keeping the customers happy, etc. Act as if you own the place, what needs to be done?

[moriez]

Thanks for your replies guys

Originally Posted by Lauxa

It has helped me a little to just imagine the feelings of really connecting with people when I start to feel like I am shutting down and withdrawing. I can ask myself "If I were feeling really good and connected with these people, how would that feel?" and that helps move me to a better place.

That sounds pretty good. Once I would start doing this I know I would want to be all in the groups conversation. The problem is the mental brake. Something so strong is holding me back, playing it safe. The challenge is breaking through that.

Originally Posted by drummbellina

To deal with the second one I decided to work for myself so I could be my own boss.

Thats what I have been figuring and maybe should consider more seriously. But it would be so much better if this problem could be dealt with appropriately AKA not running away.

Also remind yourself that everyone else (well mostly) is more bothered about themselves and how THEY are coming across.

I guess that must be so so true but its hard to focus on that. I should try.

@z1freeride: Very interesting and very recognizable explanations for both #1 and #2. I will look into this more closely asap.

I am open to more insights from people so feel free to respond.

[The Cloud]

1) Have you noticed that the only time you have this problem is when you think about it? Your problem isn't that you are afraid of judgment or that you don't know how to talk to people. Your problem is that you think you have a problem. I'm not saying that once you stop thinking of it as a problem that you'll suddenly be a master socialite. You probably won't. But you will no longer have a problem, and that is what you really want, isn't it? As long as you NEED to be able to talk to people, you will have a problem. Just accept that you may make horrible conversation. Maybe you're just terrible at talking. Maybe you just can't do it. Don't give up, just give in. This may be what you are right now. Right now isn't forever, and you can improve in the future, but right now is also all that you have. Accept it, and you will no longer have a problem.

2) Again, your problem here is that you have a problem with not wanting to do what you're told. It's alright to not want to be bossed around, this is perfectly acceptable. But if you take issue with yourself for feeling this way, then suddenly you have a problem on your hands. Maybe you could think about things differently. Maybe what's causing you to feel this way is that you are looking at the situation from the wrong perspective. But you'll never know if you spend all your time hating the feeling that is telling you what's wrong. That's like hating a thermometer for telling you that it's hot outside, or hating pain for telling you about the nail in your foot. Your anger is just a feeling, just pressure or heat. It's telling you something, and it is up to you to interpret it. Or you could just hate your pain and leave that nail in your foot.

[Lanya]

1) Next time you have something to say that's deviant, say it anyway. Do a "speak before you think" thing (if you can do that) and force yourself to spit it out before you comprehend what the hell you're doing. The emphasis here is not to make a plan out of it or conquer your fear: the emphasis is on just doing it.

2) Don't have any short-term suggestions here, but you can just pay particular attention to your emotions whenever that happens. Eventually it fades (by eventually, I mean don't expect a difference in a month). Just make a habit of it for the sake of it.

Just suggestions, so feel free to ignore if they don't appeal.

But seriously, go do what I said. Now.

[z1freeride]

Originally Posted by moriez

@z1freeride: Very interesting and very recognizable explanations for both #1 and #2. I will look into this more closely asap.

Thanks! All of my ideas pretty much derive from Nick Pagan's blog, nickpagan.com.

In my opinion, his is the only blog that describes how to get to the root cause of problems. I found his personal story to be very inspiring and then I continued to read some of his articles, which are awesome. They have helped me a lot!

[moriez]

@The Cloud: You are basically saying accept the situation as it is. I totally agree with that is the first step. I wouldnt even have that much of a problem with not being able to speak well in a group. The thing is that I cannot maintain being me. I get clouded and start feeling small and that is exactly what I want to avoid. Feeling ok with my so called short comings. Maybe I dont accept it fully and end up in the spiral down. What do you think? Your explanation for 2) is a bit vague for me. Maybe you can give me an example of what this feeling is telling me or how I can look at it. The thing is that I get so annoyed that who I am gets pushed to the background. I want to keep flowing naturally and not get eaten by anger or other obstructive emotions. Thats the bottom line.

Originally Posted by Lanya

1) Next time you have something to say that's deviant, say it anyway. Do a "speak before you think" thing (if you can do that) and force yourself to spit it out before you comprehend what the hell you're doing. The emphasis here is not to make a plan out of it or conquer your fear: the emphasis is on just doing it.

I like these hands-on things. Hard but do-able I think.

2) Don't have any short-term suggestions here, but you can just pay particular attention to your emotions whenever that happens. Eventually it fades (by eventually, I mean don't expect a difference in a month). Just make a habit of it for the sake of it.

How does paying particular attention help you? Is that a form of accepting perhaps?

@z1freeride: Checking out Nicks pages and reading up on the article you mentioned.

[Remiel]

Well I can relate to #1 and for #2 I think I can relate but from a slighlty different point of view.

I have aspergers and for the longest while I was extremely awkward in a crowd. Worse was the fact that I knew I had to think before I spoke and I actually developed a .5 second delay between what I thought to what I spoke. You might think this is a good thing but in fact it hurt me horribly. The thing is that .5 second delay REQUIRED me to think before I spoke which means I couldn't listen fully to you because I had to think of what I was going to say next. I'd frequently forget what I was saying in the middle of saying it.

This just compounded my problem even more. I eventually came to discover that the real problem was far deeper. I was afraid of other people finding out the real me. That I had aspergers and that I wasn't "normal" (whatever normal is lol). I was scared that once they found out who I was that they would reject me. I spent years building up masks to hide who I really was because of that fear. And it led me to a place very similar to yours. I couldn't talk easily to other people and when I did it was all surface, how's the weather type of talk. It wasn't till I realized that I was placing my self worth in the hands of other people that I began a journey to free myself to talk with other people. Pretty much the way I solved my problem is I placed my self-worth in the hands of God. After all if he created me who is there that is better than him to define my worth? By doing this I freed myself from the fear of rejection. If someone rejects me for being me? Thats perfectly fine and I almost expect someone to do it because of who I am. Yet by being 100% the real me I find I have deeper, more meaningful conversations with people. I can listen 100% and find value in others. I no longer worry that what I say might be "wrong". If I'm wrong then so what? My value is not based on my friends, what I do or any other fleeting type of thing. My value is permanent, unchanging and wonderful.


For the second I'll share my story in the hopes that it helps you. I used to not be able to take criticism. Actually it was so bad that even if it was just someone shared something that I could do better I would get extremely angry and heated. I would justify my actions with words and argue with others why they were wrong. When in fact I was the one who was in the wrong. I went to a seminar called focus and while I was there I learned about triggers. Triggers are things in our past that cause a reaction out of us. I've heard it called hot buttons by others before. This was the first time I had heard it tied back to an event in the past that we naturally and instinctively refered to when that button is pushed. For myself I came to realize that every time I heard criticism I heard my dad saying "Good job... BUT". This came from growing up with aspergers and my parents not learning about it until I was in my early teens. Every time I heard something I could do better I heard that "Good job... BUT". Once I realized that, recognized it and acknowledged it I began to gain freedom from it. Nowadays I just take criticism as feedback. Its just how someone else is currently seeing me. Another thing to note is that the criticism also tied into my core fear of rejection by other people. Since I put my self worth in what others thought I couldn't have them thinking negatively about me now could I?

I've heard it said elsewhere that we all have a core fear. Something that makes us extra affraid. Some of the types of fears I've heard of is fear of rejection, fear of being manipulated, fear of losing control (those are the only ones I can recall). I've noticed it to be true for myself and for a few other people who I am close to. My brother for example gets extremely heated when other people tell him what is going to happen. He blew up at me over me informing him that I was going to move his stuff if he didn't get it out of the room by the time he went on his honeymoon (he was moving it into an appartment at the time). To me this was just a basic courtesy to inform him that if the room wasn't clean I'd nicely move the rest of his stuff to the garage. To him this was me being controlling and him losing control. So to me his fear is losing control / being manipulated.

But anyhow like I said I believe we all have a core fear that we need to wrestle with.


Well I hope this helps.

[The Cloud]

You don't have to maintain being you. You are you every moment. Let me ask you this question that really bowled me over the first time I heard it in "Anger Management"; who are you? Not what's your name, not what do you do for a living, not where do you live or who are you related to, not what is your personality like. Who are you?

You can't say. You are who you are, but you don't know it. You can't know it. Who you are changes every moment, so how can you maintain being who you are if it is not something that is maintained. You aren't a stable thing, a noun. You are a dynamic action, a verb. You happen every moment. It's not so much "I am" as it is "am-ing is here." The English language mistakenly makes things out to be stable and continuous, when nothing is really stable and continuous even if it looks like it. For example, the Earth is spinning, and revolving around the sun, which revolves around a galaxy, which revolves around god knows what. So every moment everything is in a completely different place relative to the rest of the universe. How much more difference could you ask for from moment to moment?

Now, for number 2, my main assertion is that emotional pain and physical pain are the same thing. They are just there to tell us when something is wrong. Physical pain tells us that something may be wrong with our body. Emotional pain tells us that something may be wrong with our perspective or our actions. You are not the things you feel. If you physically feel something bad, you don't think that you are a bad person for that. Yet if you feel emotionally bad, like angry, then you feel that you are your emotion and therefore you are bad. This is just another falsehood. Being angry doesn't make you a bad person. Being angry just tells you one thing; you need to change your perspective to feel differently. The anger tells you that you're looking at things in a way that contradicts the reality of your situation, that there is a metaphysical nail in your foot. Alter your perception, and you no longer have to be angry.

You said you liked hands-on things. When you're feeling angry or scared or otherwise emotionally problematic, look around you. Experience everything that is happening right at the moment, and ask yourself what is wrong with it. Notice how nothing is really wrong with right now, and that all your problems are somewhere else that you have invented in your mind. In the future, in the past, in your head. That is where your problems are. But you are in the now, and you always will be, so you are always where your problems aren't.

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by moriez

How does paying particular attention help you? Is that a form of accepting perhaps?

Pretty much. I guess I could say awareness gives me more power (or, at least, opportunity) to delay that knee-jerk reaction, and act independently of my emotions.

But if you're really interested in the details, I'd encourage you to just try it and find out for yourself.

[z1freeride]

Originally Posted by moriez

@The Cloud: You are basically saying accept the situation as it is. I totally agree with that is the first step. I wouldnt even have that much of a problem with not being able to speak well in a group. The thing is that I cannot maintain being me. I get clouded and start feeling small and that is exactly what I want to avoid. Feeling ok with my so called short comings. Maybe I dont accept it fully and end up in the spiral down. What do you think?

Does this occur with all social interactions? Are you ever yourself with close friends or family?

I know I can be myself and express my ideas without the fear of looking stupid with my family and other close friends.

Maybe try to identify what's different between the two situations. Is there a difference?

[INTJAquarian]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Now, for number 2, my main assertion is that emotional pain and physical pain are the same thing. They are just there to tell us when something is wrong. Physical pain tells us that something may be wrong with our body. Emotional pain tells us that something may be wrong with our perspective or our actions. You are not the things you feel. If you physically feel something bad, you don't think that you are a bad person for that. Yet if you feel emotionally bad, like angry, then you feel that you are your emotion and therefore you are bad. This is just another falsehood. Being angry doesn't make you a bad person. Being angry just tells you one thing; you need to change your perspective to feel differently. The anger tells you that you're looking at things in a way that contradicts the reality of your situation, that there is a metaphysical nail in your foot. Alter your perception, and you no longer have to be angry.

I think this is brilliant...thank you for this.

[moriez]

Remiel, that was a very helpful post. I have heard about triggers before and oh yes, do I get triggered. Funny that I hear MY Dad barking commands at me when someone tells me to do something. All the way through my upbringing I was never asked to do but I was told to do. In recent years that has really started to annoy me and there is still a lot of anger. I guess that is also the root of the problem that I have with authority or someone bossing me around.

Secondly I can totally relate to what z1freeride said: I interpret people telling me to do things as if I cannot see them myself, not capable or lazy. In especially my teenage years I was labelled lacking in initiative and lazy. Although I have gotten a bit over these labels there are still remnants that I try to fight off. Just another bit that contributes to problem number 2.

@The Cloud, its not easy to digest the things you say for number 2. I think its too theoretical or just not an approach for me. It might dawn on me later though. I like a lot what you say about "who am I" and not having to maintain being me. I can translate that to flowing (like water). Also lovely is where my problems are, in my head, past or future, not in the now. Tricky to execute but I get it

Originally Posted by z1freeride

Does this occur with all social interactions??

Some times more then other times but more than I would like. I mean Im busy a lot with "what can I say now?" or "what does this person think of me?". Searching for approval?

Are you ever yourself with close friends or family?

Luckily I am pretty much at ease with my family. I guess it doesnt really matter what I say or do or their opinion about me because I know they are always there for me. On the other hand Im a great deal less at ease with especially two of who I consider good friends. These guys have in my opinion great social skills and have their degrees. The combination of these facts make me feel less. I continue to place them somewhere above me which isnt good for a healthy friendship. Funny to notice is that I have a good female friend who hasnt studied and I feel we are much more on the same level. Maybe I dont feel threatened by her by all the great things these guys have. I am more at ease with her, less jumpier then with the guys. I have this "smart" people syndrome pretty heavy by the way. As soon as I hear that someone is studying or has studied on a uni and has some "good" job I back away. I can literally feel a shock. Lol, now that Im so honest I feel messy and confused about how many things dont seem to be right.

Maybe try to identify what's different between the two situations. Is there a difference?

It becomes pretty obvious to me that I place a certain type of person above me. Maybe a lot more people than I would like to admit. "They" are better. Although Im fighting this one for a long time I guess that this how I go through life. Not pitying myself but with an attitude of feeling less than others it sure musnt be a lot of fun to live.

As always, Im hoping for your responses. Thanks so much guys!

[moriez]

Going over and over this thread there are really a lot of valuable suggestions! Just to let you know and to give myself an overview Im going to implement a couple that seem to be for me.

For #1:

-"If I were feeling really good and connected with these people, how would that feel?"

This one gives me a great feeling and is a very positive and open attitude towards others. The mental brake that I was speaking about I theoretically no longer consider because Im going to play with watching/awareness instead. Also the desire for approval Im going to replace by changing focus on "If I were feeling really good and connected with these people, how would that feel?"

-"Speak before you think. Next time you have something to say that's deviant, say it anyway"

This one is harder but the hands-on factor is my kind of thing. For me this one is similar to an older one I have used: "dont choose on consequence when expressing yourself."

For #2 I dont have anything hands-on yet but I start to understand:

-that I get triggered by what happened in the past.
-that I have a problem only because I think I have a problem and will try to no longer regard it as a problem.
-that me comes in many forms and is not static but dynamic which translates that its ok to be whatever I am in whatever situation.
-the importance of now and that my problems were once created in my head.

The issue with me looking up to people still needs some more work. If anyone wants to comment go for it!

[moriez]

Again I would like to respond as if it were only for myself. Also I like to show you were my thoughts are at concerning these issues. Actually, i just overthought all this again as I was confusing myself. I now only go with three things:

-"If I were feeling really good and connected with these people, how would that feel?"

-"Speak before you think. Next time you have something to say that's deviant, say it anyway"

-Watching/being aware of negative thoughts. Just observing them and not attaching emotions to them. I think that is the essence of watching.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by moriez

-Watching/being aware of negative thoughts. Just observing them and not attaching emotions to them. I think that is the essence of watching.

The reverse is also true. Watch your emotions without attaching thoughts to them. Attaching "I shouldn't be angry" to anger isn't very helpful.

[Zwynd]

Originally Posted by moriez

2) I really, really cannot stand it when someone tells me to do something. The problem is especially in work situations where a (more experienced) co-worker or a supervisor tells me to do something. Immediately my first thought is to tell that person to **** off. It just remains a thought and I do it anyway but there I go: I get annoyed with them but keep it to myself, tiring myself and once again going down with a clouded mind making the day much harder. It has a lot to do with how someone tells or asks me to do something. I want to hear a "please" or "could you" but Im afraid that I will get heat for saying that (as I already experienced). The work relation then gets worse which I in turn cant live with. Eventually I spiral down into me wanting to leave the job.

I can relate on this. I've hated working for other people, especially those who had LESS experience than me. But I'll NEVER do anything for anyone if I don't want to, especially if they don't ask me nicely. Why should I bother? They're not respectful to me so I won't waste my time.

It seems you have values about that as well and it's clashing with people. You want respect, they see you as a robot. Which is going to win? Are you going to stand your ground or let them walk on you?

Ask yourself whether or not your job is really worth it, either. Why would you want to contribute there in that work space, rewarding them for being rude to people. And I sure hope the people you work with are not in the service industry as I'd hate to have an assholic waiter not say "thank you" if I tipped them...

What'll it be? Slave to them or God/dess to yourself?