Patriotism

[Lauxa]

I thought about putting this in World Affairs, but this is more an emotional issue related to how I feel about World Affairs, so I am putting it here.

Last Sunday I went to church. We go to a Unity church, and for the most part I enjoy it. But with 4th of July last Friday, I guess it was inevitable that all the patriotism would carry over into the service as well.

It started with presenting the flag and then singing Star Spangled Banner and My Country 'Tis of Thee. The prayer was about being so grateful for all the freedoms we enjoy in this country. The service mentioned the American Revolution and some BS about how the Brits were expelled "with force, but also with love." And then we were encouraged to be "spiritual revolutionaries" and go say Namaste to Congress and bless our world leaders. All closing off to a nice song of This Land is Your Land.

As soon as I realized where the service was headed (about when I saw the flag) I just felt like my heart got all hard and my chest all tight. Because I am so upset about the state of this country. And the sermon itself just made me mad. How can you make a connection between the American Revolutionaries who actually used FORCE to solve their problems and "spiritual revolutionaries" who don't actually do ANYTHING? It doesn't make sense to me. If using force to solve problems is wrong, then the American Revolutionaries were wrong, and if they were right then it should still be right to use force.

I've been going to this church for a little over a year and this is the closest I have heard to a political sermon and it really bummed me out.

[Jamie]

Hi Lauxa,

Why is using force wrong?

I think the do nothing VS use force (or violence) argument, is very much context dependent; it depends on the situation.

If you're being attacked by a mugger in the night, do you want to stop and be all spiritual?

I remember once hearing about the history of some monks, who were attacked, and they were chased to the edge of a cliff by armed men, who slaughtered them. With a lot of monks, for example in China, they have martial arts as a very big part of their lives; it's a self-development thing sure, but it's also that the universe is a violent place, so you need to be strong..

If they were saying stuff you thought was BS in church, why not stand up and say "look, this is BS, here's why.."?

[Interpreneur]

Lauxa,

You should have walked out. I don't think most people go to church expecting a politically-charged atmosphere. Plus, I always thought the Unity Church preached about living in the "NOW". Why are they bringing up old wars? I know it was an important part of our history, but I have to question the validity of the sermon, even on Fourth of July weekend.

[Jamie]

I tell you what, a few years ago when I was at a low point, I tried out a few local churches, and one was awful (actually, they were all a bit unhinged).

But this one, the preacher was getting all enthusiastic and warning against homosexuality, how unspiritual and against gods will it is; anyhoo, all the people in the congregation were just sat there, with their heads bowed down in humility (read: blind obedience). It made me feel sick, that's not spirital, it's bullshit, and it's people in the congregation suppressing their own sense of what's right and wrong and subdjugating themself to the priest.

It's putting an intermediary between you and the divine.

More people need to realise power resides in YOU. Stand up, and don't be afraid to say <THIS> is my reality (whatever your reality is). That's what I'm aspiring to do more and more.

Anhoo, wish you all the best Lauxa.

J x

[Lauxa]

Thanks for the replies, I guess I was just hoping for something better from them...

When I began looking into PD and eventually into Unity, I was fresh off immersing myself in conspiracy theories, watching all the Alex Jones videos, etc. And not that everything they say is true, but they paint a scary picture of what is happening today and what we can expect in the future, and it makes you feel like you have to stop it somehow, even though you don't really have the power to do so, which keeps you in fear and a bit of hopelessness.

And then I came to Unity, and I understood it to be saying that we don't have to fix the world because it's not "broken", but our job is to come to a place of inner peace and love. But I just couldn't seem to get to their views on force, if it is justified to attack someone that is attacking you, if it is morally justified to attack an oppressive government. Since all their messages seemed to emphasize forgiveness and love, I mostly assumed that force was not okay, at least by their "dogma".

So to hear the minister say that it WAS okay to use force for the American Revolutionaries but NOW we should be blessing our enemies... well, I'm not sure I can live with that philosophy, it seems too self-contradictory.

I just wish there was some way of KNOWING when to use force and when to just let it be.

[MattSuwak]

I don't know if there is ever a right time to know when to use force. Personally, I'm not against it most of the time if it's called for. That doesn't mean pushing your sister over or anything but if it's really called for, then do it.

What I always try to keep in mind is that the Founding Fathers lived 200 years ago. That might seem to make them less civilized, but remember that war to them was an art form with specific rules of engagement. War to us now is guerilla combat and laser guided bombs. The philosophy that we've grown to the point where we can love instead of fight is a little wonky by me.

I don't think your church is trying to pacify the population, but rather say that there are better ways to fight for a cause. I believe that. But sometimes, you have to throw off your gloves and stand up for yourself.

[JSB]

I think using love and solving problems "spiritually" is a wonderful ideal. it is something we should all strive for, and an intention we can all keep in mind.

That being said, it is an imperfect world we live in, and sometimes it is necessary to get down in the mud and get dirty, even if it's not what we'd prefer to do; sometimes, unfortunately, force IS the best option. I just think the decision to use force should not be taken lightly, and shouldn't be celebrated.

[TheSlave]

Okay, patriotism is nice but taking it into the church is a bit too much. It always becomes a political message and that should be done outside the church.

One thing that never stops surprising me:

...all the freedoms we enjoy in this country.

I haven't travelled a lot but I've been in 8 countries and lived in two of them and all of these countries are WAY more "free" than the US (based on what I read and what people tell me about the US after living there). Even a former communistic country where the old system is still going strong allows quite free live. Of course US is no North Korea but still I can't see how it's possible to lock up people for years just because they could be terrorists. That's not freedom, it's a police state.

"When you give up in freedom for security, you lose both" - Benjamin Franklin

From what I remember about your civil war I think the right thing was done (no matter if it was done with love or force ). But now when the Iran apparently is one of the "evil-doers" it would be a good time to test the spiritual (or diplomatic) way of doing things. Unfortunately it's not going to happen because Iran, just like Iraq, MIGHT have some WMD...


Back to the first post: using force to solve a problem is wrong (except when you want a revenge).