Superiority and Attachment to Excellence

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Yes, but that's all we have. If someone gets the absolute top marks, then they are not average.

They are not average as mesured with social standards.
There's a saying : "excellence is doing your best".
If someone gets the absolute top marks but is lazy, conscious people would not see this as excellence even though by average standards this would be considered as excellent.

That said I like this thread because it shows you are looking for a way to reframe your good desire for excellence in a meaningful way, without feeling superior. It's a very positive thread in my opinion.

[Mewwy]

pianoperformer, there are so many different paths in life different people walk on.

Therefore, there are many forms of excellency.

Don't just look at the situation in front of you. Think about the entire globe. Think of people who are living in restless situations like starvation and war. Think of people who work 10 hours a day to get 3.00 USD compensation each day. For people who continue to endure and survive these hardships, would you deny that they are also trying their best too? I think they possess very distinctive courage and strength. That's one form of excellency to me.

Some people really aren't born with chances where they can be exposed to forms of "lofty challenges," such as academics. Many people who are also trying hard in life could never have a chance to enjoy flashy recognitions resulted from their own hard work. People like you and I have the chances to be entitled to socially respected recognitions such as diplomas from prestigious universities or 4.0 GPA whatnot. I know you have high standards for yourself and you aren't looking for admiration from others, but grades really are just one way to manifest hard work in this universe.

Of course, it seems you've already chosen to walk the very path to perfect grades, skills, and achievements, and deep down your heart you want the BEST out of this particular path. I agree with how academic excellency opens up many chances that lead you to living a more fulfilled and distinguished life in this competitive society. That's the form of hard work you have to do in your lifetime to get you what you desire, but that doesn't mean all people have to do the same type of hard work in order to achieve things they desire. You probably are superior in some people's eyes, including from your own view. But you probably aren't that superior to some.

Let's focus on the point of view according to your ideal. I know of some college students getting straight As, double majoring, opening their own IT firm and profiting before graduating, and have lots of skills and talents like professional certifications and leadership. If they wonder why you aren't as good as they are and starts believing you aren't working hard, isn't it quite a misunderstanding to you?

So you probably want some solid advice on how to be detached from perfection or superiority that has you somewhat concerned. My actual advice is to travel as much as you can to see how other people work hard in their lives. I was similar to you before - not allowing failure in academics, always filling up my life with activities in order to hone my skills, and despising other's laziness. However, my views changed after seeing many facets of the world. I witnessed many lifestyles, races, cultural values, privileges, and disasters. I became more content and efficient with my own academic and work after much traveling. Things like GPA suddenly became a petty number to me, without decreasing the quality of my school work. I became attachment-free to other people's lower (or higher) status and found them actually equal as I am. I believe that most people on this planet are actually hard workers, not slackers.

Peace and trust you found within yourself (eg. the bliss from studying you talked about) and people (eg. knowing people have their own purposes) should benefit you longer than benefits exchanged by grades and accomplishments (such as getting extraordinary jobs.)

[pianoperformer]

Mewwy,

I can't really travel that much unfortunately.

I do see your point, but that doesn't affect my own desire for accomplishment. I mean, I know what I want to do in life, and =I want to do that to the best of my ability, which I think includes working as hard as I can work now so that I'm more likely to be in a good position to do that later on.

I just would like to find a balance, that's all. I know if I stress too much over it, I will actually not do as well from worrying. I don't think there'll ever be a day that I'm just as comfortable getting a 3.5 as a 4.0, but I don't think I want that, either. I don't want to be happy with not doing as well. I guess I just need to be confident that I'll do fine, and put in the work I need to put in. Perhaps I should just strive for complete understanding of all of the courses, for the purpose of retaining it and building on it in future courses. That will make it easier to do better in future and harder courses because I have a good foundation, and will put me in a good position when I need to use all of that which I learned. If I understand all of them completely, surely I will do excellently, just by knowing the material that well.

Essentially that would mean switching the focus from working to get a 4.0 and hoping the understanding is retained, to instead working on learning and retaining the material, the result of which should be a very good grade. That's just my theory; I really have no idea.

I don't even know how much work to put in, especially with something like physics and math. In physics, there are pages of problems at the end of every chapter, and I'm afraid of skipping any of them, especially since doing problems is one of the most important parts of understanding the material. Again, it comes back to finding the maximum of understanding vs. work, which I wish I knew or could find.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

The only thing I have trouble with is, how is the natural talent for working hard and doing well neither a good or bad thing? I mean surely it provides an advantage in accomplishing what one wants to accomplish, so it is hard looking at it in a neutral view.

I meant that objectively it isn't good or bad. It is only useful within a certain context. If you were in Russia during the Bolshevik Revolution, being a successful capable individual probably would have just painted you as a bourgeoisie oppressor in need of extermination. Good and bad are relative terms. I'm not saying you should not think in terms of good or bad, because they are necessary basic concepts. I'm saying that it helps to recognize that all they are are concepts, not real objective truths.

[Mewwy]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Mewwy,

I can't really travel that much unfortunately.

I do see your point, but that doesn't affect my own desire for accomplishment. I mean, I know what I want to do in life, and =I want to do that to the best of my ability, which I think includes working as hard as I can work now so that I'm more likely to be in a good position to do that later on.

That's ok; traveling is just a specific example of how you can see there are plenty of hard working people out there. It will provide a sense of balance between how you see yourself and others, by not judging other's effort according to your own scale.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I just would like to find a balance, that's all. I know if I stress too much over it, I will actually not do as well from worrying. I don't think there'll ever be a day that I'm just as comfortable getting a 3.5 as a 4.0, but I don't think I want that, either. I don't want to be happy with not doing as well. I guess I just need to be confident that I'll do fine, and put in the work I need to put in. Perhaps I should just strive for complete understanding of all of the courses, for the purpose of retaining it and building on it in future courses. That will make it easier to do better in future and harder courses because I have a good foundation, and will put me in a good position when I need to use all of that which I learned. If I understand all of them completely, surely I will do excellently, just by knowing the material that well.

I don't see how this example is troubling you according to your two major issues: The feeling of superiority and the need for perfection. If a 4.0 is as essential as oxygen to you, or if understanding all the laws of physics in textbooks is required before you die, you can achieve it without attachments like superiority and perfection.

If you still find 3.5 GPA shameful, here are lists of things to do for you to achieve perfection. Memorize dictionaries of many languages. Memorize 1x1, 1x2 and so on to 99x99. Prohibit yourself from using any reference while programming and retrieve the scripts from your brain. Do all the physics problems in the back of every chapter. Why didn't you get into Ivy League. Why aren't you also good at violin. If you ever prefer, why aren't you a professional cook, a pro wrestler, a company's president like Bill Gates, all at the same time, all under the illusion that perfection leads to better future.

Since graduating with a 3.7ish isn't very exciting for you, I doubt getting a 4.0 is enough for your desire. You can never be perfect enough, period. You're going to haunt yourself for the rest of your life with perfection.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Essentially that would mean switching the focus from working to get a 4.0 and hoping the understanding is retained, to instead working on learning and retaining the material, the result of which should be a very good grade. That's just my theory; I really have no idea.

I don't even know how much work to put in, especially with something like physics and math. In physics, there are pages of problems at the end of every chapter, and I'm afraid of skipping any of them, especially since doing problems is one of the most important parts of understanding the material. Again, it comes back to finding the maximum of understanding vs. work, which I wish I knew or could find.

Again, you can fearlessly complete as much physics problems as you like. But you're attached to fear of failing. A specific suggestion for you for dispelling attachments: I think Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now is a good book that teaches you how to live your best potential without the need for more perfection. It teaches you the foundation to successfully attachment free living. (Tolle's method is mainly "living in the Now." I hope it should help you.)

Another suggestion for balance, is temporarily shifting your attention away from your goal. Don't worry, accomplishment isn't going to slip away just because you aren't doing what you think you should do right now. That's why I thought of traveling. Service as suggested, is a great way to achieve balance so you won't be the only person who will benefit from your hard work. 4.0 GPA is overrated. You're the only one who really cares. Unless you start doing something for someone.

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Mewwy

That's ok; traveling is just a specific example of how you can see there are plenty of hard working people out there. It will provide a sense of balance between how you see yourself and others, by not judging other's effort according to your own scale.

Actually, if you read my other posts in this thread, I don't think I'm that judging of others. I am if they are on the brink of failing out of college and still don't pull out the grades they need, but in general I don't bother myself with their grades. If they do worse, it doesn't bother me. If they are doing better somehow, it inspires me to work harder and do at least that well myself.

My major issue is the attachment to perfection. Not even perfection, because I know that's not possible, but, as close to it as I can get. Perfection is impossible to measure with some things, because one can always do better, but it is certainly possible to know if someone is doing excellently.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

I don't see how this example is troubling you according to your two major issues: The feeling of superiority and the need for perfection. If a 4.0 is as essential as oxygen to you, or if understanding all the laws of physics in textbooks is required before you die, you can achieve it without attachments like superiority and perfection.

OK, the 4.0 is only one measurement of excellence.

I sense sarcasm in your statement, though. I don't think a 4.0 is as essential as oxygen. I think it's an absolute, measured output that tells me if my inputs are in the proper range. If that were the only important thing, I would only do as much work as needed to secure a 4.0. That's what I do with the classes I really don't care for—just doing enough work to secure an A, and that's all.

Above the A, the upper limit is infinity. My output obviously falls in this large range somewhere. Even above 100%, the upper limit is infinity, because you could know the material inside or out, or be able to spout it out on a test, yet not care, not really understand it deeply enough for application, or just not retain it.

Therefore, perfection is logically and mathematically impossible, and I know this quite well. As far as academics are concerned, I just shift my allowable range to have the lower limit of an A, instead of something lower like other people tend to do.

I know I'm defending my position, while asking for help, but I'd like you to at least understand where I'm coming from. I'd still love to fall within this range; I don't want anything to change that, which is why I'm afraid of detaching from it.

It does go beyond grades. Now and after I earn my bachelor's degree, after I earn my masters, and after I earn my doctorate, I will continue to learn all I can about everything I can, in my field.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

If you still find 3.5 GPA shameful, here are lists of things to do for you to achieve perfection.

Perfection is impossible. I know this.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Memorize dictionaries of many languages.

I am not interested, so would be wasting my time.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Memorize 1x1, 1x2 and so on to 99x99.

Shameful waste of memory and doubtful to be of any use.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Prohibit yourself from using any reference while programming and retrieve the scripts from your brain.

A noble endeavor, should I be a programmer. But that, also, is not my field, and doesn't contribute anything towards my goals.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Do all the physics problems in the back of every chapter.

I am strongly considering it, because it actually will help.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Why didn't you get into Ivy League.

I plan to, for graduate school. I regret and am ashamed I didn't for my undergrad, but that was part of the result of messing up my sophomore and junior years in high school. Incidentally, I applied to MIT, and they cited lack of community service for the reason of my rejection. I didn't write this in my original post, but this rejection crushed me beyond belief. That's one of the reasons I think that now I am so attached to doing excellently. A B is not only a B. With it, I see the dream of one of the best schools slipping away, if I am not careful. I know very well that one B can lead to a second, and that to a third. It happened to me in high school. I've learned.

I hope to become more involved in community service and student organizations in college, both for my own enjoyment, and future benefit.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Why aren't you also good at violin.

No interest; inapplicable.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

If you ever prefer, why aren't you a professional cook, a pro wrestler, a company's president like Bill Gates, all at the same time, all under the illusion that perfection leads to better future.

Because none of them interest me. You can be assured that if they did, I would be just as passionate about excelling in them, as well.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Since graduating with a 3.7ish isn't very exciting for you, I doubt getting a 4.0 is enough for your desire. You can never be perfect enough, period. You're going to haunt yourself for the rest of your life with perfection.

That is my fear. It can either consume me with worry and stress, or inspire me to do better and better. It is a fine line. I want to learn to do the latter.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Again, you can fearlessly complete as much physics problems as you like. But you're attached to fear of failing. A specific suggestion for you for dispelling attachments: I think Eckhart Tolle's The Power of Now is a good book that teaches you how to live your best potential without the need for more perfection. It teaches you the foundation to successfully attachment free living. (Tolle's method is mainly "living in the Now." I hope it should help you.)

I have the book, but haven't gotten around to completing it yet. Again, I'm just afraid of detaching. I know all of this about being in the present, but it is my future dreams that inspire me onward.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Another suggestion for balance, is temporarily shifting your attention away from your goal. Don't worry, accomplishment isn't going to slip away just because you aren't doing what you think you should do right now. That's why I thought of traveling. Service as suggested, is a great way to achieve balance so you won't be the only person who will benefit from your hard work. 4.0 GPA is overrated. You're the only one who really cares. Unless you start doing something for someone.

Maybe. I don't know what to do. However, right now I'm not studying merely because I want a 4.0. I am studying because my insatiable desire for knowledge won't allow me to do anything else. That's why I'm so annoyed that I can't find other easily accessible resources from which to learn, because I know that if I did find such a resource, my knowledge would snowball until I found everything I possibly could, understood it thoroughly, and knew how to apply it. I know I would quickly get far ahead of my classes. I feel bound right now, with a burning desire, yet nothing to feed it.

[ZHereford]

Hey Pianoperformer,

The only way you can 'detach' yourself from the pursuit of perfection is to consciously do so. Practice it. Continue to do your best but don't focus on the grade you receive. Grades are merely gauges, not absolutes.

Perfection, in and of itself, is not a worthy goal. What you do with the knowledge you have, should be the measure of your accomplishment. Can you invent something new, take the current research several steps further? You will not have left your mark by merely regurgitating what you know and getting 4.0 because of it. That will not make you great. Coming up with new and innovative ideas might.

Those who have earned the right to be called 'great' have actually had many failures. Their failures taught them much and eventually led to success.

The ability to retain information and succeed at various activities is not a measure of perfection or greatness. Pursue something you know you won't succeed at right away. Allow yourself to falter. You can't be great at everything. No one is.

[pianoperformer]

ZHereford,

I appreciate your reply.

Of course I know that I will have to be able to further the research and current knowledge, but that's why I want to learn the current knowledge as thoroughly as possible.

I will try to practice detaching, but I'm not sure how to without the risk of doing worse. Perhaps like what I said before, I can focus on knowing and thoroughly understanding the material. that seems the only logical way. Certainly I want to try to detach, but I also don't want to risk my dream as I mentioned in my last post. See what I mean? I failed once, and I'm scared to death of letting it happen again.

[Mewwy]

I read all your posts, pianoperformer. I had to use exaggeration bust your attachments at this point.

If you didn't judge others, there would be no scale to compare yourself to others, and you wouldn't be attached superiority as suggested by your thread title and posts.

I feel that you are getting somewhat detached. Because in your first post you stated low GPA may become a source of shame, but now you said you aren't obsessing on a 4.0. I hope you feel some difference in these statements.

Again, it really doesn't matter if you like piano or violin, physics or chemistry. Every field has it ways to prove excellency. You might as well surpass Albert Einstein if you ever wanted to.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Perfection is impossible. I know this.

Tada. I'm going to see this statement as a way of detachment. Then you have nothing to fear. Isn't this one of the desired effect you want from this thread? Plus, you weren't an average student from the credentials you told us. Your learning attitude also isn't average. Existing facts are supporting you! Your only enemy is your own thoughts.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

I know I'm defending my position, while asking for help, but I'd like you to at least understand where I'm coming from. I'd still love to fall within this range; I don't want anything to change that, which is why I'm afraid of detaching from it.

There are ways to detach without changing the quality of your work towards your goal.

Mr. Steve Pavlina for example graduated with two degrees in three semesters in college and got pretty much the same grade as you did. That's a way to have your effort fall within the very excellent range where 4.0 GPA cannot measure. I don't see him attached to the need of perfection or superiority from his blogs.

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Shameful waste of memory and doubtful to be of any use.

Sorry, had to defend this one. This method is used by some Indian students. Can't fail to acknowledge many of their excellency in the realm of math. Being an East Asian student myself I have memorized dictionaries, big or small ones, from word to word in school in Asia and it's a common "shameful waste of memory and doubtful to be any use" way to learn there. It would have felt like mental masturbation if I took pride in using extreme methods to learn just to secure my perfection.

To be honest, there is beauty within the lesson of failure. The thought of "I should never fail again" itself is a sign of imperfection. We all live to fail. Success teaches you very little. Successful people by any standards had failed.

The rejection from MIT example is great. I hope you can enjoy community service not for the sake of exceling. There are so many important reasons to carry out changes in the world.

Regarding the need to feed the desire to learn and excel,
Desire

I think the article is highly relevant for you even it doesn't talk about learning physics.

Best of Luck,
Mewwy

[pianoperformer]

Originally Posted by Mewwy

I read all your posts, pianoperformer. I had to use exaggeration bust your attachments at this point.

Lol, I understand.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

If you didn't judge others, there would be no scale to compare yourself to others, and you wouldn't be attached superiority as suggested by your thread title and posts.

I think what I'm feeling right now is, I use those scales to tell me I'm on the right path. My ultimate desire is to really master all of this and be able to do my own research to extend the current knowledge. My 4.0 is kind of like someone heading north with a compass. As long as it always points north, they know that they are on track. If it moves even the slightest, they know they are off track and need to take some corrective measures. I like to make sure it is always exactly on north, while others might wait until they are actually heading east before slowly correcting their course, while being distracted by other things and maybe never getting there, or else it takes longer.

I guess the shortcoming for me is focusing too much on the compass, and then falling off of a cliff. It kept me going the right direction, but I didn't pay enough attention to the path itself.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

I feel that you are getting somewhat detached. Because in your first post you stated low GPA may become a source of shame, but now you said you aren't obsessing on a 4.0. I hope you feel some difference in these statements.

Sort of. I'd still probably hide under a rock if I got a 3.5. More correctly, though, I'd never allow myself to fall to that point.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Again, it really doesn't matter if you like piano or violin, physics or chemistry. Every field has it ways to prove excellency. You might as well surpass Albert Einstein if you ever wanted to.

Hey why not try? That's honestly how I feel. The sky's the limit. But with such freedom can be stress if I'm not careful, so that was my major problem here.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Tada. I'm going to see this statement as a way of detachment. Then you have nothing to fear. Isn't this one of the desired effect you want from this thread? Plus, you weren't an average student from the credentials you told us. Your learning attitude also isn't average. Existing facts are supporting you! Your only enemy is your own thoughts.

Thanks. Yeah I suppose.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

There are ways to detach without changing the quality of your work towards your goal.

Mr. Steve Pavlina for example graduated with two degrees in three semesters in college and got pretty much the same grade as you did. That's a way to have your effort fall within the very excellent range where 4.0 GPA cannot measure. I don't see him attached to the need of perfection or superiority from his blogs.

Indeed. I wonder how he did it?

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Sorry, had to defend this one. This method is used by some Indian students. Can't fail to acknowledge many of their excellency in the realm of math. Being an East Asian student myself I have memorized dictionaries, big or small ones, from word to word in school in Asia and it's a common "shameful waste of memory and doubtful to be any use" way to learn there. It would have felt like mental masturbation if I took pride in using extreme methods to learn just to secure my perfection.

Interesting. Forgive me for asking some questions about this.

What is the motive or intention in doing this?

What does the memorization of the dictionary have to do with math, or are you just citing examples?

What do you mean dictionaries, big or small? I thought there was only one dictionary containing all words.

Do you feel it paid off for you?

I also am memorizing some things that others would consider wasteful. For instance, I am memorizing as much as I can about each element of the periodic table. My motive though is because I can't refer to a print periodic table since I'm blind, so memory is the next best thing, if not the best.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

To be honest, there is beauty within the lesson of failure. The thought of "I should never fail again" itself is a sign of imperfection. We all live to fail. Success teaches you very little. Successful people by any standards had failed.

I do have to agree here. If I hadn't failed before in what I mentioned, I probably would not be as inspired now. I think I started to take it all for granted, and so it slipped away. That's one mistake I will do everything in my power to not repeat again.

It is stressful, though, because the margin of error is rather small if I really want to get into one of the top schools. I know I can do it, but I have to proceed with caution and make sure not to take it for granted.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

The rejection from MIT example is great. I hope you can enjoy community service not for the sake of exceling. There are so many important reasons to carry out changes in the world.

Yes, I hope to. That is just one of my motives.

I did a limited amount last year, just doing a fundraiser along with IHS (Integrated Honor College), of which I am a member, to raise money for breast cancer research. I hope to do more this year, though.

Originally Posted by Mewwy

Regarding the need to feed the desire to learn and excel,
Desire

I think the article is highly relevant for you even it doesn't talk about learning physics.

Best of Luck,
Mewwy

Thanks. It is an excellent article, even if I'm not so keen on the goddess thing.

Thank you for your thoughtful replies and advice.

[magi13]

To excel is more of an addiction which gives the added effect of superiority.

To be able to perform well does add to one's self esteem and if you're used to that you will definitely be humbled if you constantly perform bad.

Just keep on trying to improve yourself. It's not a bad thing to have a mindset of being a college graduate or not, it's a good back up in case your business goes down or what not.

P.s. In my law studies I find it frustrating if I cannot perform well too. You just have to work harder or smarter the next time. ^^ it's all about concentration.

Perfection is possible. That should be your mindset. You have to believe that it is achievable. ^^,

[sbdiane]

Originally Posted by pianoperformer

Does anyone else have any suggestions about this? It is really aggrevating.

There are essentially two issues here:

• The feeling of superiority
• The need for perfection

I didn't read all the posts on this, so forgive me for that.

You're a praise junkie. I mean that with respect. I know how it feels.

You feel ok whenever you get the A, but it wears off almost immediately. Anything less than an A is equivalent to failure. You must be the best or else you aren't good enough. And your definition of the best comes from outside yourself, as a measurement bestowed upon you from someone else. Worse, it's also a comparative measurement. You win the talent show because you're not only good but you're better than everybody else.

It's not so much that you feel superior to everyone else. You probably do not feel superior deep down inside. It's that unless someone tells you that you are superior, you feel completely unworthy. So you keep proving it over and over just so you'll feel ok.

Eventually, despite all your As and talent show wins, you will no longer be the best. You may even find that you are run-of-the-mill average or below average. You could even end up like me as an underachiever, afraid to take risks or learn things beyond what's comfortable, beyond what you already know you'll succeed at. It will be a huge blow to your self-esteem. You'll have to find a way to feel valuable internally without comparison or external measurement.

It may be a struggle you have for all your life. Growing up in such a high-pressure, get good grades life can do this to you. You may overcome it, too. Or you may just continue on and find huge success by chasing perfection forever. People do all the time.

Anyway, I do understand how you feel. It's been much the same for me, but thankfully I'm no longer within the educational system so I don't have that stimulus of grades. In fact, whenever I return to a college course I either take my courses pass/no-pass or else I never look at the final grade. I know internally whether I learned the information or not. The external measurement is not important.