Massive perspective shift

[Freelancer]

Nobody, I repeat NOBODY can make you feel guilty without YOUR PERMISSION.

Let me repeat that;
NOBODY can make you feel guilty without YOUR PERMISSION.

I know you've probably heard this a million times;
You are the only one who is responsible for his/her emotions.
You are the only one who controls his/her emotions, deal with it.

Well yeah I read that a million times and went, yeah perhaps thats true but this fear/guilt trips/anxiety seems to control me all the time.
I can't help it, there must be something wrong with me !

Insert Eckhart Tolle.
The master, the king of enlightenment. The chairman of the holy board.

Spend about 2 weeks listening continouesly to his teachings.

Realized I am not my thoughts.
Realized I am not my mind.
Realized I am not my emotions.

I became more centered.
I became more relaxed.
I Discovered myself.

Stopped listening to Eckhart Tolle (battering my mind away, it needed a break)

Insert Atlast Shrugged.
The queen of writing. The ultimate book on industrial philosophy. The disciplined achiever.

Before I started reading, I set out to put my mind in the perspective of the main characters.
I set out to take on there characteristics and see what happens.

Learned a ton from that experience.

Ultimately it wasn't for me.

Then something magical happened, something truly amazing.

The feeling of *BLING* Offcourse, how could I not SEE?

It clicked, nobody can make me feel guilty ever without my permission.

So I set out for another mind experiment.
Becoming guiltless.

Consciously on unconsciously everybody around you tries to make you feel guilty over something.
To control you.
To make themselves feel better.
To feel bigger then you.

Well I was fed up. No more. Its time to take charge.

I set out to stop the guilt trips.
The results have been truly mind blowing.

More open.
More relaxed.
More fun and loose.

I can ****ing TALK, truly talk without worrying about anything.

Do you have any idea how this feels if you've always had a little agent monitoring yourself?
Feeling guilty about almost everything?
Bringing yourself down?

And then suddenly stopping all that, freeing yourself from all bonds.

Freeing yourself from the environment.

My god what a change.


Guys, stop accepting the guilt trips people try to put you through.
They have no right to control your feelings.
The only power they have is the power you give them.
Take that away from them, you've suffered long enough.
Your responsible for your emotions and they are for there emotions.


Set yourself free !!

[The Cloud]

To set yourself free, you must first believe you are a slave. Instead, forget the concepts of freedom and slavery. You can always try to be something good, but by believing in good you also create evil. A concept cannot exist in a vacuum, it must always be contrasted by something else. Plus implies minus, good implies evil, yes implies no. If you truly want to rid the world of "bad," you must also forget about "good." Without definition, everything just is, without context. And that is my belief of what truly living is.

[Angela]

Hmmmm, I look at it a bit differently, The Cloud. I think boldly examining our thoughts for truth allows us to see how they run us, and the seeing, itself -- the shining of light -- is what releases us from the bondage of our habitual thoughts. We're not even aware those thoughts are enslaving us, until we examine them.

The very real experience of freeing myself from habitual thought is something I experience as freedom -- when I am vigilant enough to do it! I think what Freelancer is doing here is reminding himself to remain vigilant. And us, too.

[The Cloud]

Angela, I subscribe to the Taoist belief that creating a dichotomy automatically creates a breach in our understanding of reality, because nothing real exists separate from anything else. A tree is not separate from a rock, a planet is not separate from the sun, good is not separate from evil, except by out definition. Logical reasoning, which I consider to be the ultimate goal of thought, is limited by the fact that it is a subjective interpretation of objective reality. But no matter how good that interpretation is, it is not truly real. No matter how well meteorologists interpret the weather systems, they can never perfectly predict them. So yes, on one level, it is necessary that one examine their thoughts (oddly enough, by thinking about them) to discover the ones that are contradictory to reality, but on another level one must realize that no matter how much they think, it is impossible for reason to recreate the real. Reason is simply a tool used to root out all the thoughts that contradict reality, and once those have been discarded, one is not left with anything but true being, existence without thought or reason or definition. And if one can attain a state where one does not define things in terms of this or that, but rather exists with them as a whole, my belief is that that person is truly enlightened.

Of course, for any of this to be valid you must subscribe to the belief that subjective reality is merely an artifact of objective reality, but I'll hardly be able to convince anybody willing to argue against me on that issue since I have no proof. I hope that you are not one of them, since the idea of subjective realism to me is an attempt to further separate one's self from the universal whole, and to define one's self as a singular unit around which the universe revolves. Basically, it's an egotistical idea that you are somehow special or unique from the world you live it, and I can only imagine it to be based on an insecurity that one must feel special and unique and separate and in control. But I digress, and I will cut myself off before I do so further.

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

the idea of subjective realism to me is an attempt to further separate one's self from the universal whole, and to define one's self as a singular unit around which the universe revolves. Basically, it's an egotistical idea

The Universal whole is all there is in subjective reality. How could one feel separated from it ?
SR is a belief where you can lose your ego self and melt it in the Universe. You lose your ego and get the Universe in return. Of course it requires a great deal of humility not to get misleaded and take the greatness of the Universe for yours (from the point of view of your ego). Human self is such an insignificant part of the Universe (which is true Self), so that is the opposite of an egotistical view. People who truly believe in SR would happily give their ego-life away if it is for the greater good of the whole universe.

Mind is not Cousciousness but just an insignificant part of it.
And yet there is such greatness given by the Universe in humans. That feels almost too much of a responsibility, and requires a great deal of humility, in order to shift perspective.
In SR you don't say "I am a human, and what I think is truth", you say :
"I am the Universe, and this human (referring to your human self) is a cool guy that is going to work for Me".

Originally Posted by The Cloud

And if one can attain a state where one does not define things in terms of this or that, but rather exists with them as a whole, my belief is that that person is truly enlightened.

To me you just described a state where one live in Subjective Reality here.

[Trezker]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

the idea of subjective realism to me is an attempt to further separate one's self from the universal whole, and to define one's self as a singular unit around which the universe revolves.

To me, SR is the opposite of what you describe. What you describe is what I call objective reality.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Of course, for any of this to be valid you must subscribe to the belief that subjective reality is merely an artifact of objective reality, but I'll hardly be able to convince anybody willing to argue against me on that issue since I have no proof. I hope that you are not one of them, since the idea of subjective realism to me is an attempt to further separate one's self from the universal whole, and to define one's self as a singular unit around which the universe revolves.

I don't know if I'm one of them, because I don't understand what you said. But I am with you on the wholeness issue. I don't have any strong feelings or beliefs about objective or subjective reality. I just want to live like a dog.

[The Cloud]

Haha, well, I can see that bringing up the subject of subjectivity/objectivity was bound to generate responses. My question, if it is ok with the owner of this thread, is this; how can consciousness be an ultimate? If something does not operate based upon some rules, then it by definition is chaos. So it follows that, if this consciousness is not bound by any rules, then it will inherently do anything with no reason whatsoever. But, if it operates upon some basic rules to govern its behavior, then we are in agreeance and are simply arguing semantics. My belief in objectivity is that there are basic rules that govern everything, ultimate arbitrary rules to the universe that dictate everything that exists within it and are not susceptible to alteration. An example of such a rule would be the speed of light. No matter how fast you are moving relative to something else, the speed of light will appear to be the same to you and them. So even if you are moving at 99% the speed of light, light will still appear to be moving at the speed of light to you. There is no reason for this rule, it is simply there, an objective truth (at least as far as we know, although the romantic in me hopes for a loophole ).

[munish]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't have any strong feelings or beliefs about objective or subjective reality. I just want to live like a dog.

But ,I just want to live like a rat .

[Christian223]

Do you have any idea how this feels if you've always had a little agent monitoring yourself?
Feeling guilty about almost everything?
Bringing yourself down?

Guys, stop accepting the guilt trips people try to put you through.
They have no right to control your feelings.
The only power they have is the power you give them.
Take that away from them, you've suffered long enough.
Your responsible for your emotions and they are for there emotions.

It clicked, nobody can make me feel guilty ever without my permission.

So I set out for another mind experiment.
Becoming guiltless.

I think that becoming guiltless is an extreme step, imagine this, a guy rapes lots of children and he says "hey, society tells me this is bad, and i feel so guilty, why do i have to bring me down?, i know, from now on i wont take any judgement from society, ill make my own rules, im guiltless".

The problem is not guilt, the problem is the integrity of an individual, what do you really think?, What does your consciense tell you?, if you think you are not guilty, your attitude is the same than a rapist or any delinquent who is guiltless in his own sight.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Christian223

I think that becoming guiltless is an extreme step, imagine this, a guy rapes lots of children and he says "hey, society tells me this is bad, and i feel so guilty, why do i have to bring me down?, i know, from now on i wont take any judgement from society, ill make my own rules, im guiltless".

The problem is not guilt, the problem is the integrity of an individual, what do you really think?, What does your consciense tell you?, if you think you are not guilty, your attitude is the same than a rapist or any delinquent who is guiltless in his own sight.

Well I'm still human and I pride myself on my integrity.

However my integrity often tells me to do things some people dissaprove off (think stuff like changing education -parents-) so guilt is in that case very counterproductive.

Nice to bring it up though.

if it is ok with the owner of this thread

OMG I will NEVER survive A thread HYJACK. OMG Where the **** do you Live I'll Come and ****INg kIll you. HASKJHAKSHEDITAREEGFGGG




Anyway now I've released my rage I'm completely cool with it. I don't OWN the thread so.

Besides I agree with you to a large extend. Its only so freakin difficult to communicate if your going to nitpick it all the time.

[The Cloud]

Lol I'm glad I have such a benevolent host. I agree with you for the most part, as well, I simply couldn't help but to elaborate on my opinion. I dislike ambiguity, so I tend to be verbose, as well as nitpick In light of that, I will try to keep this concise.

I disagree with Christian223. Guilt is a negative emotion, non-withstanding its source. And negative emotions indicate conflict of desires. Are you any better of a person, fundamentally, if you want to do something bad but don't for fear of guilt, than if you actually do it? Guilt is external; you don't feel guilt because of your judgment, you feel it because of a perceived judgment from an external source. So, if guilt is the only thing stopping you from raping children, then in the absence of a source of judgment you will act no differently than somebody who does it despite the guilt (because child rapists do feel guilt, unless they have a profound psychological disorder).

I would assert that reason is what ultimately should dictate your actions and desires, because then there would be no reason for guilt because all of your desires, and the actions proceeding from them, would be reasonable. Isn't a world where people act out of reasonable self-interest much better sounding than one where people act out of the fear of their neighbor's judgment?

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Lol I'm glad I have such a benevolent host. I agree with you for the most part, as well, I simply couldn't help but to elaborate on my opinion. I dislike ambiguity, so I tend to be verbose, as well as nitpick In light of that, I will try to keep this concise.

I disagree with Christian223. Guilt is a negative emotion, non-withstanding its source. And negative emotions indicate conflict of desires. Are you any better of a person, fundamentally, if you want to do something bad but don't for fear of guilt, than if you actually do it? Guilt is external; you don't feel guilt because of your judgment, you feel it because of a perceived judgment from an external source. So, if guilt is the only thing stopping you from raping children, then in the absence of a source of judgment you will act no differently than somebody who does it despite the guilt (because child rapists do feel guilt, unless they have a profound psychological disorder).

I would assert that reason is what ultimately should dictate your actions and desires, because then there would be no reason for guilt because all of your desires, and the actions proceeding from them, would be reasonable. Isn't a world where people act out of reasonable self-interest much better sounding than one where people act out of the fear of their neighbor's judgment?

I couldn't have said it better (in fact I didn't say it better lol).