Narcissism

[Cron]

From
Welcome to Narcissism 101

Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them.
T. S. Eliot

snip...

Someone who suffers from Narcissistic Personality disorder (NPD) has at least 5 of the following characteristics:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

Here are some more signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder to look out for:

* Jealousy and possessiveness
* Excessive need to feel special, adored, loved, appreciated, or admired
* Rage attacks when you do not sufficiently meet his/her needs
* Controlling behaviors (trying to control how you spend your time, who you talk to, how you dress, etc.)
* Inflated self-esteem, or grandiosity (bragging, "fishing" for compliments)
* Dramatic, insecure behaviors
* Expecting you to take responsibility for making him/her feel better about him/herself
* Blaming you for behaviors or feelings (i.e., "YOU made me do this," or "YOU made me feel this way.")
* Not taking responsibility for angry behavior and justifying angry outbursts
* An attitude that demonstrates "the world revolves around me" and "you need to cater to my ideas, opinions, thoughts, and feelings."
* An unwillingness to reflect on his/her own behaviors


[NotesMaeve]

Hey! You're good with the function buttons! Wanna put this into context?

[Maguru]

Wow! Is 'narcissism' classed as a mental disorder? You say those 'suffering' from NPD but are they suffering or is everyone around them? I think everyone has at least five of these 'symptoms' without the need for a diagnosis. It sounds pretty normal to me.

Originally Posted by Cron

From
Welcome to Narcissism 101



snip...

[m18pak]

What are you trying to tell me?

[Parthon]

<kidding>He's trying to say you are a Narcissist m18pak. </kidding>

I myself compared myself to the list, and while I'm guilty of 1 or 2 of those sometimes, it's never been excessive. I can relax.

What I do see however is an opportunity to recognise it in yourself and others. It's definately a good signpost to narcissism, which can degrade relationships and quality of life for everyone. I looked at the list of signs, and I honestly cannot see benefit from them that's not outweighed by the negative.

In yourself you can use the list to pick up on that kind of behaviour and modify it to be more compassionate bringing peace into your life. There's definately opportunity to improve yourself based on those negative influences of the ego outlined above.

In others it's a little trickier. How to you handle a narcissist? I think a combination of acceptance and barriers is a good idea. Accept them for who they are, and all their narcissistic ways, but at the same time set up patterns where they aren't in control of you through it.

The two hidden questions are really "What's the best way to not be a narcissist?" and "What's the best way to handle them in a compassionate manner?"

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Wow! Is 'narcissism' classed as a mental disorder? You say those 'suffering' from NPD but are they suffering or is everyone around them? I think everyone has at least five of these 'symptoms' without the need for a diagnosis. It sounds pretty normal to me.

I can attest that its both the environment and the individual who suffer from this.

I've got a family member with this and she managed to separate herself and her parents from the rest of us. She managed to hurt my grandma deeply by stealing. She managed to hurt my unkle who took her in, took care of her when everyone abonded her. She managed to hurt another family member who also gave her shelter, food and even love. But most of all she hurt herself. Its funny but the more you hurt the people surrounding yourself the more it comes back to you. When I know see her, the life seems to be drained out of her. She's 17 years old but looks like a 30 year old. Her face is contracted to the point that she constantly appears to frown of misery. You can feel a dark energy emanating from her.

She's truly in hell.

You should feel compassionate for somebody in that position.

The two hidden questions are really "What's the best way to not be a narcissist?" and "What's the best way to handle them in a compassionate manner?"

Great questions, although I've got no real answer for them. Personally I've avoided all contact and told my direct relatives to do the same. They are like a void pulling in all life energy around them.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

I can attest that its both the environment and the individual who suffer from this.

I've got a family member with this and she managed to separate herself and her parents from the rest of us. She managed to hurt my grandma deeply by stealing. She managed to hurt my unkle who took her in, took care of her when everyone abonded her. She managed to hurt another family member who also gave her shelter, food and even love. But most of all she hurt herself. Its funny but the more you hurt the people surrounding yourself the more it comes back to you. When I know see her, the life seems to be drained out of her. She's 17 years old but looks like a 30 year old. Her face is contracted to the point that she constantly appears to frown of misery. You can feel a dark energy emanating from her.

She's truly in hell.

You should feel compassionate for somebody in that position.

That's so true. Compassion and pity. Pity because they have a bad life circumstance brought on by themself, and compassion because they couldn't do otherwise.

Great questions, although I've got no real answer for them. Personally I've avoided all contact and told my direct relatives to do the same. They are like a void pulling in all life energy around them.

They are more Socratic questions, asked to provoke your own answers and to discover your own truth in the matter. I know what you mean about the people that suck your life though, I've actually told my mum that I didn't want to visit her family, and my extended family, anymore because they were so petty, negative, and draining. Sometimes you have to cut your losses, people can only be helped if they want to be helped, otherwise you are expending energy for no reason.

In the end, I do look forward to a day where there are less narcissistic tendencies in people, and that day is now.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Parthon

That's so true. Compassion and pity. Pity because they have a bad life circumstance brought on by themself, and compassion because they couldn't do otherwise.

They are more Socratic questions, asked to provoke your own answers and to discover your own truth in the matter. I know what you mean about the people that suck your life though, I've actually told my mum that I didn't want to visit her family, and my extended family, anymore because they were so petty, negative, and draining. Sometimes you have to cut your losses, people can only be helped if they want to be helped, otherwise you are expending energy for no reason.

In the end, I do look forward to a day where there are less narcissistic tendencies in people, and that day is now.

I get it.

This moment is now.

[m18pak]

Cron, why did you post this thread?

I don't understand what this synchronicity means.

[Old Soul]

Yep.... my fahter in law in a nut shell

[Cron]

Originally Posted by m18pak

Cron, why did you post this thread?

To stimulate thought

[Cron]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Wow! Is 'narcissism' classed as a mental disorder? You say those 'suffering' from NPD but are they suffering or is everyone around them? I think everyone has at least five of these 'symptoms' without the need for a diagnosis. It sounds pretty normal to me.

If everyone in a society becomes obese such that being obese looks "normal" does that mean that the individual who achieves a healthy weight will no longer experience health benefits and happiness as a result? Will that individual not know joy by not having diabetes, aching joints, sleep apnea, NASH etc?

Narcissistic traits are becoming more common and common in our society.

At least to me this seems to be even more the case in the personal development community.

Everybody is special .... in both bad and good ways and insists on being special. Nobody wants to be ordinary.

The thing is, ordinary people achieve most of the things that the "special" people in the personal development community desperately want and pursue.

Ordinary people lose weight, get dates, manage their time, find jobs they love, get excellent grades, and make good money everyday in ordinary ways.

However the belief or desire to be "special" in the personal development community also means that some people believe that they are "special" in a bad way. There is something about them, something "special" that will not allow them to have those ordinary achievements using ordinary methods.

They need "special" methods, whether it is a book, a CD set, a mystical belief, or a special diet.

These methods are advertised not only to get these ordinary results but to get them to a ridiculously, better, faster idea and that sells. It isn't enough to get those things at ordinary levels to people who believe themselves to be "special" in bad and good ways. They have to get those things faster, more, and better than everyone else. They need to special not only in being deficient compared to ordinary people but also in conquering ordinary people when they achieve ordinary goals.

If a person can accept the idea that they are not special I believe they become free. If they are not special they are not special in a good way, but they also not special in a bad either. They are not deficient.

If they can accept that they are ordinary then they can believe that methods to achieve ordinary goals that worked for other ordinary people will also work for them.....since they are ordinary people too.

They will no longer need to buy expensive books, and CDs to show them how to become "good special", supermen, superwomen.

They can achieve what they want, without being "sold something" and they will be mostly happier with themselves.

[Alex2007]

Originally Posted by Maguru

.....I think everyone has at least five of these 'symptoms' without the need for a diagnosis. It sounds pretty normal to me.

Yes I double Maguru's opinion!

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Cron

If everyone in a society becomes obese such that being obese looks "normal" does that mean that the individual who achieves a healthy weight will no longer experience health benefits and happiness as a result? Will that individual not know joy by not having diabetes, aching joints, sleep apnea, NASH etc?

Narcissistic traits are becoming more common and common in our society.

At least to me this seems to be even more the case in the personal development community.

Everybody is special .... in both bad and good ways and insists on being special. Nobody wants to be ordinary.

The thing is, ordinary people achieve most of the things that the "special" people in the personal development community desperately want and pursue.

Ordinary people lose weight, get dates, manage their time, find jobs they love, get excellent grades, and make good money everyday in ordinary ways.

However the belief or desire to be "special" in the personal development community also means that some people believe that they are "special" in a bad way. There is something about them, something "special" that will not allow them to have those ordinary achievements using ordinary methods.

They need "special" methods, whether it is a book, a CD set, a mystical belief, or a special diet.

These methods are advertised not only to get these ordinary results but to get them to a ridiculously, better, faster idea and that sells. It isn't enough to get those things at ordinary levels to people who believe themselves to be "special" in bad and good ways. They have to get those things faster, more, and better than everyone else. They need to special not only in being deficient compared to ordinary people but also in conquering ordinary people when they achieve ordinary goals.

If a person can accept the idea that they are not special I believe they become free. If they are not special they are not special in a good way, but they also not special in a bad either. They are not deficient.

If they can accept that they are ordinary then they can believe that methods to achieve ordinary goals that worked for other ordinary people will also work for them.....since they are ordinary people too.

They will no longer need to buy expensive books, and CDs to show them how to become "good special", supermen, superwomen.

They can achieve what they want, without being "sold something" and they will be mostly happier with themselves.

Ah so thats why you started this thread.

[Parthon]

Cron's post just reminds me of the phrase "Remember, you are unique, just like everyone else!"

I'm not quite sure that I got what he was talking about though. Talking about ordinary people trying to be special and buying the get special quick offers in order to conquer ordinary goals .... umm what?

I agree with the part about being just like everyone else. We are all human, and while each of us are unique, we are no better or special than anyone else, just different. There are more similarities between people of this world than there are differences. Embracing your common humanity allows you to connect with people, anywhere, anytime with anyone. It's a peaceful freedom that allows you to be yourself, and to stop being scared of other people.

The special methods though, I think they are needed, or at least some of them. More than 90% of people out there aren't living lives full of love, joy, compassion and success. There may be fleeting moments of it, but it's not a common state for everyone. There are people that achieve worldly success, but those people are a minority, and they still aren't all happy. The realm of Personal Development really does spread all the methods of being able achieve even ordinary goals to more and more of the ordinary people that can't achieve them on their own. It's not the 5-10% of people that can achieve goals that I worry about, it's the 90% that can't. It's the kind of new education that you find in all the "special" books that will open the door for everyone to live a better life, so we can improve the overall ordinary. Is it self centered and narcissistic? Maybe, but I know that not being happy makes other people less happy, not improving means nothing will get better, so not trying to be a better person definately is selfish.

As a side note for Cron: Underneath it all, I get the impression that you don't like people that follow Personal Development. You think they are self centred people. I could just be reading too far into it though. Did anyone else get that impression?

[ZHereford]

There is a vast difference between being narcissistic and unique, special, original etc.

Everyone is unique or original. That doesn't mean they're a god or better than anyone else. It means we all bring something different to contribute to each other. I wrote an article on this recently:
Dare To Be An Original

I would encourage, not discourage everyone to be unique. Pursuing personal development and striving to reach your potential is a desirable thing, not a vehicle to promote narcissism.

[Angela]

I don't know about the "personal development community" (what a funny image that brings to mind!), but the traits you listed all strike me as things that, when we post while being any of those things, the rest of our little community will put up the mirror, so that everyone can get some insight and growth out of it. Whether the poster chooses to hold onto the characteristic or choose something that works better, we all get to see ourselves in him, to be connected, and to make a similar choice for ourselves. We're all gonna have some of those traits at one point or other, so why not commit to seeing what we can and inspiring ourselves and others, and making choices that work well in generating a loving, free, joyful life?

Why not?

[Old Soul]

Wow! Is 'narcissism' classed as a mental disorder? You say those 'suffering' from NPD but are they suffering or is everyone around them? I think everyone has at least five of these 'symptoms' without the need for a diagnosis. It sounds pretty normal to me.

If I understand it , in a nutshell the N" is in love with his image of self, and this image is a "false self" not himself as a whole independant person, the N see's others as nothing but a source of Narsasistic "supply",/ extensions of him or herself, for a complete mirror picture ........ where as healthy Narscissim does love self, but sees others as full independant individuals, not objects of a supply, we , meaning all of us have some N traits but not a true disorder ( cluster ) we see from our true self not image , a narsasist has no empathy , they are unable to empathise, not because they dont want to but because they are incapable of it


Having a discussion with a true N, is hell, because they can not see you as independant individual with your own likes and dislikes, your own ability's , so in dealing with them in a relationship , you are never really acknowledged not because the N doesn't want to but it is impossible

ie) lets say you have had a huge event in your life and you want to share it
The N sees this as an opportunity for "narsasistic supply", it is NEVER going to be about you...... but them it has to be because you are just the narscastic supply....



Psychopaths really do not need other people while narcissists are addicted to narcissistic supply (the admiration, attention, and envy of others).

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Cron

From
Welcome to Narcissism 101

snip...

Sounds like the manic phase in bipolar disorder to me...

[Old Soul]

Sounds like the manic phase in bipolar disorder to me...

Misdiagnosing Narcissism - The Bipolar I Disorder


Misdiagnosing Narcissism - The Bipolar I Disorder



The manic phase of Bipolar I Disorder is often misdiagnosed as Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

Bipolar patients in the manic phase exhibit many of the signs and symptoms of pathological narcissism - hyperactivity, self-centeredness, lack of empathy, and control freakery. During this recurring chapter of the disease, the patient is euphoric, has grandiose fantasies, spins unrealistic schemes, and has frequent rage attacks (is irritable) if her or his wishes and plans are (inevitably) frustrated.

The manic phases of the bipolar disorder, however, are limited in time - NPD is not. Furthermore, the mania is followed by - usually protracted - depressive episodes. The narcissist is also frequently dysphoric. But whereas the bipolar sinks into deep self-deprecation, self-devaluation, unbounded pessimism, all-pervasive guilt and anhedonia - the narcissist, even when depressed, never forgoes his narcissism: his grandiosity, sense of entitlement, haughtiness, and lack of empathy.

Narcissistic dysphorias are much shorter and reactive - they constitute a response to the Grandiosity Gap. In plain words, the narcissist is dejected when confronted with the abyss between his inflated self-image and grandiose fantasies - and the drab reality of his life: his failures, lack of accomplishments, disintegrating interpersonal relationships, and low status. Yet, one dose of Narcissistic Supply is enough to elevate the narcissists from the depth of misery to the heights of manic euphoria.



Not so with the bipolar. The source of her or his mood swings is assumed to be brain biochemistry - not the availability of Narcissistic Supply. Whereas the narcissist is in full control of his faculties, even when maximally agitated, the bipolar often feels that s/he has lost control of his/her brain ("flight of ideas"), his/her speech, his/her attention span (distractibility), and his/her motor functions.

The bipolar is prone to reckless behaviors and substance abuse only during the manic phase. The narcissist does drugs, drinks, gambles, shops on credit, indulges in unsafe sex or in other compulsive behaviors both when elated and when deflated.

As a rule, the bipolar's manic phase interferes with his/her social and occupational functioning. Many narcissists, in contrast, reach the highest rungs of their community, church, firm, or voluntary organization. Most of the time, they function flawlessly - though the inevitable blowups and the grating extortion of Narcissistic Supply usually put an end to the narcissist's career and social liaisons.

The manic phase of bipolar sometimes requires hospitalization and - more frequently than admitted - involves psychotic features. Narcissists are never hospitalized as the risk for self-harm is minute. Moreover, psychotic microepisodes in narcissism are decompensatory in nature and appear only under unendurable stress (e.g., in intensive therapy).

[fellowtraveler]

Still...I think they have reached the limits in "diagnosing" such. Putting too fine a point on it takes away focus on remediation. All such conditions are on a continuum...as symptoms appear and receed, diagnosis morphs to fit them...and to what end?

Not to mention the ever-elusive blurred line between character flaw and illness; brain chemistry as cause, or effect.