Sheer ignorance and stupidity

[Gordon]

Hello...I firstly make no apologies for the Title of this thread...but I would like people views on the this article

BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Shoot UK teacher, say protesters

Many around the world will know the story already...a British teacher living and working in the Sudan, allowed her young pupils to name a teddy bear, Muhammad. She was arrested and put in prison. Tried very quickly and sentenced to 15 days. Apparantly she could have got 40 lashes.

Now....I fully aggree will if you are living in another country you abide by their rules and customs....whether you aggree with them or not. I understand the hurt that making fun on Muhammad in such a way that it offends Muslims....I like many others would like to think that we are smart enough not to offend any religion in any form.

This woman did not intentionally name the teddy bear Muhammad. But wow...what a punishment. Now there are protests on the street by Sudanese asking for her to be killed.

I know there are muslims on the this forum. I personally don't like the religion, but hey...good luck to you. This incident only fuels more mistrust and hatred toward the muslim community....which, don't get me wrong is a crying shame....there a a lot of good muslims out there.

What the views of some of the muslims here on. I think the protests and the authorities are ignorant stupid people...there I have said, Mr Moderator...for allowing this to get so far. This should never have got this far...

Are there Muslims out there who agree...I suspect not....with me?

Are there Non-Muslims out there who agree with what the authorities have done.

You now my views on the matter....a quick smack on the wrists and told don't do that again...it offends....but no...this poor woman is now in Sudanese jail. I think the British should send a task force to free both her and the teddy.

G

[Gordon]

Even the bloggers condemn it

BBC NEWS | World | Africa | Bloggers condemn Sudan for arrest

G

[openeyes]

To me such situations only serve to increase the divide between Islam and "The West". As a number of articles make clear, even most of the Sudanese feel the punishment is going overboard, but unless the moderate Islamic majority is willing to stand against Islamic fundamentalists, the actions of fundamentalists will continue to shape many people's view of Islam as a whole. The same can be said of Christian fundamentalists, if moderates let them rule, moderates will also bear the consequences.

I wouldn't have anyone send a task force into Sudan for something like this. I'd simply stop sending people there period, or have people go with the understanding that they very well may be killed for seemingly no reason. I may prefer not to venture there until I can bring along a pet pig named Mohammed (Mo or Ham for short) and be greeted with approving laughter. Irreverence is the sign of an enlightened society

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

From what I understand she allowed her 7 year old students to choose the name. Perhaps she should have known (since she chose to go teach there) that using the name of Islam's sacred prophet in this manner was forbidden. While I believe the punishment is too harsh for the crime, it's not our place to make rules for other cultures/religions. Neither is it our place to place judgement on whether another culture's/religion's rules are right or wrong. I do hope that she is released with no serious harm done to her and that the people who are protesting asking for her death will realize she was not trying to make a mockery of their religion (from what I've read at least that was not her intention at all).

The area of the world where this took place is in constant turmoil. I pray that peace and safety will come to the people there.

As to Muslims in general, I doubt the vast majority of those around the world would condemn her to death. Every religion has it's radicals. We just happen to live in a time where Islam has the most prominent place in our minds when we think of violent religious fundamentalists.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by openeyes

I wouldn't have anyone send a task force into Sudan for something like this.

I was being flippant!!

You know Christianty wasn't much better in the dark ages....it has lots of blood on its hands. Yes you will find pockets of fanatical Christians out there, usually ready to fall on there swords, right up until the point they should.

You know, if God, Mohammed or whoever were so great, I am sure they don't need lunatics with guns, knives or any other weapons defending their names.

But until the moderates rise up against the militants; their religions (what ever that is) will always be highjacked.

G

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I was being flippant!!

I wasn't sure, as it actually wouldn't surprise me to see special forces intervene in something like this, maybe not the Brits but from across the pond. The teddy might not survive though ...

[jwz]

lol
Many muslim children are named "Muhammad".
omg... Why do people have to be this way?!
Not muslims in particular, this is the mindset that causes the WARS we suffer from!

[eblight]

When others feel threatened the slightest incident that offends will incite such harsh reprisals. All fundamentalist religions are patriarchal based and while that continues both women and the men themselves will continue to suffer.

[cdn2wheeler]

Patriarchal or matriarchal makes not a whit of difference. It's the exclusivity - the "my way or the highway" mindset - that's at the root of all this strife, whether it's religious or political or economic.

I'd love to see a small band of SAS get this poor woman out of there. Probably won't happen though because the fallout could be just too costly.

[Dharma]

15 days or 40 lashes? I'll take the 15 days. 40 lashes would take way more time to heal.

In the view of a lifetime, 15 days is nothing. Do your time and fly back home.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dharma

15 days or 40 lashes? I'll take the 15 days. 40 lashes would take way more time to heal.

In the view of a lifetime, 15 days is nothing. Do your time and fly back home.

Maybe, except that fundamentalists are calling for her execution, hollering that her sentence was too lenient. The religies are more than willing to carry out the sentence of death themselves, so she's been hidden away in a secret jail. How surprised will anyone be when some crazed person finds her and cuts her throat?

[Dharma]

I'd assume since this has raised to the level of politics, she has as much protection as our president does (USA). If Sudan wants to provoke the UK then they will hurt her. Right now they've just told the non-Muslim world, don't f-- with us. If everyone plays with a cool head, this will be over soon enough.

[Gordon]

Originally Posted by openeyes

I wasn't sure, as it actually wouldn't surprise me to see special forces intervene in something like this, maybe not the Brits but from across the pond. The teddy might not survive though ...

Rescue the teddy and name it George.....oh heck, that's the English offended!!

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Rescue the teddy and name it George.....oh heck, that's the English offended!!

I'm seeing some possibilities here ...

http://www.globalpov.com/images/bush-monkey.jpg

[Gordon]

Glad to see common sense prevail,...not only was she freed, but according the report pardoned as well.

BBC NEWS | UK | Teddy row teacher to be released

I wonder where the teddy bear is?

The whole sorry incident only fuel (as someone earlier said), the West mistrust of Muslim country and the extremes they go to.

I hope that we in the West don't do anything as stupid and naming any more objects. It just upsets them.

I took my son and his little pal on a Santa Train yesterday. My son's wee pal has a British mother and Muslim father...and they choose to bring the boy up a Muslim. I don't have a problem with that...and the wee boy is the most delightful wee chap. My son and him are the best of pals and I wouldn't have it any other way. But the wee boy's father was parnoid accusing his wife of trying to convert his son to catholcism, just because he was coming on the Santa train.

Again, I get on with the father, really well, he's a great guy....but how do you deal with such ignorance and paronoia? Santa isn't religious. But he couldn't see it. He said he would allow it under duress. (Then he was going Christmas shopping in the afternoon....sheesh!!)

G

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Dharma

15 days or 40 lashes? I'll take the 15 days. 40 lashes would take way more time to heal.

In the view of a lifetime, 15 days is nothing. Do your time and fly back home.

I would assume that would mean 15 days of beating and rape (given fundamentalist Islam's treatment of women) in a hellhole of a prison.

Before the pardon, I agreed with cdn. Send in the SAS. If someone wants to prevent the woman from escaping because she offended their God who should be able to take care of himself, by all means kill them in the process if needed. Less people of those sort will equal a better world for the rest of my in in my (probably seen as harsh) opinion.

[Matthew Shea]

My first thought on this matter is I'm very glad she was pardoned. At least the Sudanese powers-that-be understand the black eye this incident gave them. It seems obvious to me that those calling for this teacher to be punished in any way either don't understand or don't care that the rest of the world sees such extreme fundamentalism as ridiculous and untrustworthy.

My second thought is that, while I have respect for Islam and its beliefs, any religion that's true and doesn't have anything to hide shouldn't be so sensitive to criticism or so easily offended. I'm not saying Islam isn't true or has some hidden skeleton in its closet. I am saying that they need to accept that they're not the only religion in this world and that people of good will can follow other faiths and still know God.

Finally, I'm glad the British government saw fit to take action to get this lady released and pardoned instead of letting her be subject to the full wrath of the Sudanese judicial system. It sends the right message in my humble opinion.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

My second thought is that, while I have respect for Islam and its beliefs, any religion that's true and doesn't have anything to hide shouldn't be so sensitive to criticism or so easily offended. I'm not saying Islam isn't true or has some hidden skeleton in its closet. I am saying that they need to accept that they're not the only religion in this world and that people of good will can follow other faiths and still know God.

Kind of OT, but the very idea of this would go completely against any "fundamentalist" religion, and would likely send its' followers into a foaming at the mouth rage. The very idea that one could worship a God outside of said religion would probably have the same types ready to kill anyone who said such a thing.

[WanderingOak]

There are now reports from Sudan that a disgruntled former employee of the school started this whole mess in retaliation for being fired. The school has been shut down, and it is unclear if it will reopen. As for the protesters in the streets, they were more than likely organized to serve a political purpose. For all we know, the Sudanese Gov't may have been behind the protests, hoping that their release of Gillian Gibbons will make them look lenient to the western media.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Kind of OT, but the very idea of this would go completely against any "fundamentalist" religion, and would likely send its' followers into a foaming at the mouth rage. The very idea that one could worship a God outside of said religion would probably have the same types ready to kill anyone who said such a thing.

Yes, and it's not unusual for religions to go through these fundamentalist periods in their history (remember the crusades and the inquisition?). But you should eventually grow out of that. Most of Christianity did, now it's time for Islam to follow.

I'll also point out that cases like this are why separation of church and state is necessary.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Yes, and it's not unusual for religions to go through these fundamentalist periods in their history (remember the crusades and the inquisition?). But you should eventually grow out of that. Most of Christianity did, now it's time for Islam to follow.

I'll also point out that cases like this are why separation of church and state is necessary.

Good post, I agree 100% with both.

[Rosie]

I haven't read all the posts, but that is an outrage. It was a harmless missunderstanding. I can't believe how horribly she was treated. It really makes me sad that people in this world are so quick to attack someone for something so small. I respect all religions, but I do not respect people who react in that way.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Rosie

I haven't read all the posts, but that is an outrage. It was a harmless missunderstanding. I can't believe how horribly she was treated. It really makes me sad that people in this world are so quick to attack someone for something so small. I respect all religions, but I do not respect people who react in that way.

No one has mentioned, but I'm surprised they weren't ready to flog the kids who voted on the name as well. The kids chose the name, the woman didn't. Just strange as I wouldn't put lashing a child 40 times past these types either.

I know I"ll probably get flamed for it, but I don't respect all religions at all, in fact I don't like many of them one bit. The few I would respect are the ones that genuinely leave others alone, which I don't think any of the major ones across the world do/have historically. I DON'T mean that I don't respect people who follow them or their right to do so, but find religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and etc to all have plenty of teachings at their core (many of which in Christianity seem to never, ever be taught or spoken of in church- not in my experience at least) that are despicable. If someone claimed that an apostate (someone who leaves a religion) of Thor should be stoned to death, most people would likely lock them in a loony bin where they belonged- however, when someone says the same about Islam, for some reason I should respect that they feel that way?

BTW, I don't mean this as an attack on Rosie's post in the particular in case it sounds like it, I'm just kind of rambling now anyway.

[NotesMaeve]

^^^ I'm not religious because I don't believe in following a dogma, but if your point is that religions are hateful, you might want to see if that just isn't a reflection in yourself, bucko, because your post is pretty darn hateful.

Yep, religion serves as an excuse to harm a lot, but so do politics, sex, and any number of things.

Also, as an irreligious pagan, I'm getting pretty sick of people who think it's bold and cool to say, "I don't respect religion! Religion kills!"

Religion doesn't kill.

Guns don't kill.

Drugs don't kill.

Money doesn't kill.

How we use those things falls 100% on our shoulders. If you put every person on this forum in a room with enough arms, manpower, and ammunition for a small infantry, a metric ton of cocaine and marijuana each, a billion bibles, and fifty billion dollars, you'd get vastly different results each time. The power ultimately boils down to the individual.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

The power ultimately boils down to the individual.

Yes. And no.

In the context of religion, far more than politics or gender or anything else, one sacrifices their individuality for the sake of their particular religious faith. Individuality ceases to exist.

For the devoutly faithful, there is no individual response. It's all about serving their particular deity, regardless of one's individual feelings in the matter. That's why people blow themselves up in the name of (insert angry deity's name here).

[mlc82]

Is it odd that I agree with both of you above? NotesMaeve, I'm NOT saying I don't respect people individually for following any specific religion. I'm saying that when a religion calls for killing/beating certain people for breaking laws that rationally are senseless, such as naming a stuffed bear after a prophet, I don't respect that tenet or even the entire system calling for it one bit any more, and don't understand why others would expect me to simply because some people believe in it.

Where did I say anything directly hateful in my other post? I didn't say "I hate religion!" or "I hate followers of this or that religion!" or anything of that sort.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Yes. And no.

In the context of religion, far more than politics or gender or anything else, one sacrifices their individuality for the sake of their particular religious faith. Individuality ceases to exist.

For the devoutly faithful, there is no individual response. It's all about serving their particular deity, regardless of one's individual feelings in the matter. That's why people blow themselves up in the name of (insert angry deity's name here).

It's a choice made by an individual to be a mindless sheep. My parents joined an EXTREME religion when I was a teenager. They forced me into attending. I was interrogated and treated like a whore by the church people. These people were making a conscious decision to treat a teenage girl this way, just as I was making a choice to say to myself, "I don't accept this. I'm not evil, and when I'm 18, I'm SO out of here."

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by mlc82

The few I would respect are the ones that genuinely leave others alone, which I don't think any of the major ones across the world do/have historically. I DON'T mean that I don't respect people who follow them or their right to do so, but find religions like Islam, Christianity, Judaism, and etc to all have plenty of teachings at their core (many of which in Christianity seem to never, ever be taught or spoken of in church- not in my experience at least) that are despicable.

Originally Posted by mlc82

Is it odd that I agree with both of you above? NotesMaeve, I'm NOT saying I don't respect people individually for following any specific religion. I'm saying that when a religion calls for killing/beating certain people for breaking laws that rationally are senseless, such as naming a stuffed bear after a prophet, I don't respect that tenet or even the entire system calling for it one bit any more, and don't understand why others would expect me to simply because some people believe in it.

Where did I say anything directly hateful in my other post? I didn't say "I hate religion!" or "I hate followers of this or that religion!" or anything of that sort.

Saying you don't respect someone's religion is just plain bitchy. If someone doesn't respect the beliefs that are most important to me, the fact is, they don't respect me. I'm a huge proponent of gay marriage, but if someone says to me, "Maeve, I respect you! I just don't respect your belief about gay marriage," they're saying, well, they don't respect something that strikes me through to my core. If I was a religious person, it would irk me if someone said that, because yeah, it boils down to not respecting the individual.

My guess is that your beef with the major organized religions is that they support violence. Arguably, they're in favor of violence in the name of furthering X's Holy Kingdom of Whatever, which is peaceful. Usually, the core thing they're going for is happiness and peace and heaven on Earth. Ways of trying to attain peace can be despicable, but yeah, it's hateful IMO to call someone's religion despicable because some extremists did some unsavory things.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

Saying you don't respect someone's religion is just plain bitchy. If someone doesn't respect the beliefs that are most important to me, the fact is, they don't respect me. I'm a huge proponent of gay marriage, but if someone says to me, "Maeve, I respect you! I just don't respect your belief about gay marriage," they're saying, well, they don't respect something that strikes me through to my core. If I was a religious person, it would irk me if someone said that, because yeah, it boils down to not respecting the individual.

My guess is that your beef with the major organized religions is that they support violence. Arguably, they're in favor of violence in the name of furthering X's Holy Kingdom of Whatever, which is peaceful. Usually, the core thing they're going for is happiness and peace and heaven on Earth. Ways of trying to attain peace can be despicable, but yeah, it's hateful IMO to call someone's religion despicable because some extremists did some unsavory things.

Well, gay marriage is a good example as well. Personally, I cannot fathom why any issue is made over it at all- I don't get why the idea of two people of the same gender loving each other is seen as such as horrible threat to some people. I cannot count how many times I've heard people claim to not support gay marriage, or even to dislike homosexuals, because "it says so in the Bible", which it certainly does (IIRC it says to kill them as well, unless I'm mixing it up with the Quaran). Why, then, should I kindly respect this belief, when I find it both abhorrent and irrational? How am I hating the person who says this (I would assume "hate" meaning HATE, not something like avoiding them but more actively trying to harm them in some fashion)?

Maybe we just have a different idea of respect here as well. When someone says something like the above to me, I understand that it's their right to feel that way and I respect THAT RIGHT, because it's the same right that would prevent me from being legally killed in the name of this or that belief if I were a homosexual. I cannot however give any sort of respect to someone elses' predjudice that usually isn't even based out of their own experience. If I were to come on the board and say "I don't like black people (or any other ethnicity) because my holy book of choice tells me not to, and so I think they shouldn't be allowed to marry and will fight to make this an official law!" would you respect that in any way, besides my having the right to say it if I wanted to?


Personally, I dont think organized religion has historically behaved any differently than any other institution (or even individual) vying to gain more power and wealth at the expense of others. The Catholic Chuch over the last thousand years is a great example, sometimes supporting wanton violence while at others time both supporting and working to maintain peace. I don't think it's some outstanding, great evil or anything of that sort, simply no different than any other ideology used for control of a population.

[wolfgang]

opium for the masses...

It's a matter that they are using their religion to further their agenda. Many of the extremists are not really religious, they are pretending to believe such and such because they see that they can get away with whatever they want - and brain wash the youth into it all.

I think the bear should be renamed "Jesus" and see what happens in the US.