Casting out obsessive thoughts.

[The David]

If anyone else has successfully dealt with this problem, I would appreciate any advice. I am currently in a situation where I am striving towards goals that are in such conflict with the way I was raised that a part of me, the part that has not entirely abandoned those limiting mindsets, is hellbent on sabotaging it. For a better background you can read my latest blog at myspace.com/keivzac, but basically I am in a constant state of shame and fear over seeing myself on a path that I know is right but that I do not feel like I deserve at all.

This obsession will not be reasoned with. I'm just wondering if anyone knows how to deal with obsessive thoughts/inaudible voices, particularly those which tell you that you do not deserve something and are being condemned, or are going to be condemned. This is really the only thing holding me back from going where I want to go in life, and because I've been told these things from the age of five, I don't know of a time when I really felt at peace with myself, so I can't imagine it every actually happening.

It's frustrating that all of my threads are so drama-filled, but things are all hitting me at once, and now that I'm in counseling new things are being unearthed every week.

[martin]

Have you tried positive affirmations? For example saying "I earned and deserve everything in my life". Or even writing that statement down? If you do it religiously for a fair amount of time I'm sure it will help.

[The David]

Originally Posted by martin

Have you tried positive affirmations? For example saying "I earned and deserve everything in my life". Or even writing that statement down? If you do it religiously for a fair amount of time I'm sure it will help.

I've started telling myself 'I deserve this' when I start feeling guilty about something I am doing (whether it be exploring a heretical belief system or simply having ambitions in life). My counselor told me to take a time every day and act as though I were completely at peace with myself, even if it feels phony. These things have helped a little but eventually the obsessions overpower my happy self-talk.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

I'm just wondering if anyone knows how to deal with obsessive thoughts/inaudible voices

Yup, NLP submodality work. Don't deal with the words, deal with the auditory qualities.

Pay attention to those 'voices', and try out some changes while you keep the words the same.

Switch speakers eg from male to female.
Move locations eg left to right, front to back, all-around to single point
Change volumes - soft and loud
Change speed - really fst or really sllloooww can be fun :-)
Change pitch - think of Helium balloon speech.

In my work I've found that switching from left to right is often very impactful.

Then at the end, try and put it back the way it was originally. If you can't you'll know you've found some variations that work better for you.

This is not a complete change, but it is very useful as a disruptor ahead of either other changework that you mention you are going through, or to allow changes that are already 'waiting in the wings' to actually get an opportunity.

Oh, and by the way, the 'voices' are correct - but don't bother with that statement until you've done the stuff above. I just thought I'd give your unconscious the next step.

[The David]

Well, now I'm very curious how the 'voices' are correct.

[Alex2007]

NLP is everywhere.

Even a good audio book can serve as NLP, to program your mind set.

x

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by Alex2007

NLP is everywhere.

Even a good audio book can serve as NLP, to program your mind set.

x

Okay, leave out the NLP bit then. I just mentioned it because it is easier to hunt down in libraries etc if you want to explore further.

The submodality stuff is still cool though.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

Well, now I'm very curious how the 'voices' are correct.

Hindsight has 20/20 vision - you'll make sense of that statement when you get there.

So let me know when it makes sense, or if you get stuck. You can PM me if you wish.

[Lauxa]

Hi David, I am a little afraid to post this in a public forum, but here goes. I have some of the same problems as you. I also lost my faith in Christianity sometime in college, and I am now 30 years old. I often have voices that say "I hate myself" and "I want to kill myself." They come every day, often several times a day. They have gotten better over the past year; "I want to kill myself" no longer plays in my head every morning when I wake up. I am continuing to learn how to handle them, and what to do when they come up.

So, one technique I am trying is to be very accepting of the voices. If you react negatively to the negative voices, then you are just doubling the negativity. Try to accept the thoughts and just notice them and be curious about them. I think the technique The David sent is one aspect of this, where you just change the sound of the words.

Another technique I use is to visualize the aspect of myself that I am hating on and to draw it on paper if possible. Then I send love and acceptance to that aspect of myself.

Listen to self-help audio more often, especially during the times when the voices are prone to come up. This way the negative thoughts get less "airtime". Also, it will give you more positive stuff to think about which will hopefully drown out the negative voices to some extent. I think this is the primary thing that has helped me over the past year.

Anyways, I thought your mom's comment was beautiful, and I think you are lucky to have her support. Especially where she said "please, please, keep your heart soft toward God reaching out to you". There was something I read in a book that helped me over my fear of organized religion, it was something about how "you can only spend a certain amount of time investigating other philosophies; eventually you have to deepen your practice, and that requires faith." Another thing that helped me was the Doctor in Star Trek Enterprise, because he was really able to see the beauty in all religions and I wanted to be able to see it. I stood in many a Catholic service with my mother-in-law trying to understand what could be beautiful about it (my parents' fundamentalist church was too abrasive and repulsive to me to be able to even try).

I don't want to push on this point too hard because I know how hard it is to trust any church after having been burned so badly.

This is a good thread and I hope some more people post on how they deal with their "voices".

[robertanthony]

Hi David

There is a life coaching technique that deals with negative SELF-TALK.

In coaching terms this is called your gremlin or the internal sabbateur or the inner bully. When you hear the thoughts give your gremlin a name and make friends with it. It might sound crazy but it works. Visualize it and make it look funny. In the past I used to do negative self-talk but now I dont. When I hear any negative self-talk I immediatly laugh and know that it's my gremlin. I am not scared of it anymore.

Somebody mentioned NLP techniques - they do work.

There's a book by a guy called Joseph O'Connor called Extraordinary Solutions for Eveyday Problems.

[The David]

I have been listening very closely to the voices and I think they are mainly telling me this: It's not just that I feel judged, or worthless, but that I feel judged and worthless, AND that the thought that I can be free to explore and question things boldly, and not be condemned for it in the end, is too good to actually be true.

Another thing that helps me is the realization that my parents, while providing the belief system that ultimately crippled me, did not force me into it. They guilted me, maybe threatened me a little, but I was ultimately the one who broke myself. I thought I was doing the right thing and now that I know I wasn't, I'm just starting to reverse the effect.

[Christian223]

Ohhh i got just what to you need, youll love this, its called EFT at it works specifically to get rid of this problem, we all have it to some degree and i can tell you from my personal experience that it helped me to clear those obstalce to feel motivated and follow my goals, now im more free than before and becoming more and more motivated and more free to reach my goals, try the link at my sig (check the resources section, both "palace of posibilities" and the personal peace process, i guarantee that they will do what they promise, its awesome because of how FAST and efficient it works), and also visit Tapping.com - Free EFT Videos - Emotional Freedom Technique
And good luck (im a faithfull Christian, by the way(since other person said it...))

[Lauxa]

Thanks for the tip about the gremlin, robertanthony. The voices have been really bad lately and that made them retreat a bit today.

[The David]

I just had a conversation with my parents yesterday, where we all three kind of expressed our beliefs. Hearing their line of reasoning made it even more clear why I am having these experiences. They explicitly stated that my reasoning faculties, and my conscience, to the extent that they cause me to question the Bible, are literally of the devil. I have always defined faith as 'the suspension of discernment, so that a foolish idea may become not only reasonable, but divinely inscribed and therefore not to be questioned'. Well, apparently my parents also subscribe to that definition, but they still consider faith to be a virtue. Apparently using discernment and trusting your conscience will land me in hell. Having believed that from early childhood, it explains a lot as to why I am so afraid of being wrong. I can't bring myself to go against my conscience, but when I follow my conscience and trust my own experience, it stings me just the same as it would if I actually submitted myself to their ----ed up cult.

I know I'm the only one who can get myself out of this, but I hate knowing that I would be better to have never known them. And I don't see how I'm going to get out of this when I have been taught to never trust myself.

[The David]

In case that came across too harshly, I wasn't really myself when I posted it. Or, maybe I was more myself and was just being brutally honest. lol

[Amandaaa]

first of all, i think it's cute that your mom commented on your myspace page.
hah. she seems like a sweet lady.


secondly,

the thought that I can be free to explore and question things boldly, and not be condemned for it in the end, is too good to actually be true.

...it's 2007.

you are absolutely free to explore and question things... i can't imagine living in a world where that wasn't true.

and you can only be "condemned" if you choose to believe in that. (just like you can only be a "sinner" if you choose to believe in "sinning.")

the world is whatever you make it.



i think the whole purpose of religion is to help us lead virtuous, pleasurable lives... to help us understand the nature of existence, and help us feel at peace with our place in the world.
religion is supposed to be a positive thing...so if a certain school of thought isn't making you feel happy, then you should drop it and explore something new.
(and yes, you do "deserve" to be happy and free. you deserve it as much as the next person. we're all equals.)

[The David]

Well, the voices still take over but their reign is becoming progressively shorter each time. The above post is an example of a 'voice attack'.

[Akashic_Librarian]

so hmm...

I am drawing a blank here.

Ditto Amandaaa insofar as you are the only hurdle you have to conquer.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

I have been listening very closely to the voices and I think they are mainly telling me this: It's not just that I feel judged, or worthless, but that I feel judged and worthless, AND that the thought that I can be free to explore and question things boldly, and not be condemned for it in the end, is too good to actually be true.

You got a part of you that doesn't want you to be disappointed. I think that's an important part to have around in some way.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

I just had a conversation with my parents yesterday, where we all three kind of expressed our beliefs. Hearing their line of reasoning made it even more clear why I am having these experiences. They explicitly stated that my reasoning faculties, and my conscience, to the extent that they cause me to question the Bible, are literally of the devil. I have always defined faith as 'the suspension of discernment, so that a foolish idea may become not only reasonable, but divinely inscribed and therefore not to be questioned'. Well, apparently my parents also subscribe to that definition, but they still consider faith to be a virtue. Apparently using discernment and trusting your conscience will land me in hell. Having believed that from early childhood, it explains a lot as to why I am so afraid of being wrong. I can't bring myself to go against my conscience, but when I follow my conscience and trust my own experience, it stings me just the same as it would if I actually submitted myself to their ----ed up cult.

I know I'm the only one who can get myself out of this, but I hate knowing that I would be better to have never known them. And I don't see how I'm going to get out of this when I have been taught to never trust myself.

As I mentioned before

> Oh, and by the way, the 'voices' are correct - but don't bother with that statement until you've done the stuff above. I just thought I'd give your unconscious the next step.

The David, you're on track.

Very few people EVER sort out how to follow their own conscience rather than other's expectations/faith/whatever. You're version is a much more stark example of the situation. Good work so far. Talking to your parents must have been an effort.

[The David]

Originally Posted by DrMartinRussell

As I mentioned before

> Oh, and by the way, the 'voices' are correct - but don't bother with that statement until you've done the stuff above. I just thought I'd give your unconscious the next step.

The David, you're on track.

Very few people EVER sort out how to follow their own conscience rather than other's expectations/faith/whatever. You're version is a much more stark example of the situation. Good work so far. Talking to your parents must have been an effort.

Ah. The reason your comment confused me is because I wasn't sure which 'voices' you thought were correct. There are actually many more voices in my head than just the one telling me that I'm doomed, that one is just more plausible because it is so much worse.

It's like this: You park your car, lock the doors, and go the the twentieth floor of a building (or somewhere really far away). Someone asks you if you remembered to lock. With confidence, you say "Yes, I did lock!" Well, then the person tells you that there is a burglar running around in the parking lot. Suddenly, the stakes are much higher. You no longer feel so confident. You have to check. You have to reach a level of absolute certainty that simply is not possible. Somehow, the prospect of being robbed has unlocked your car. I don't know why some people think like this, I just know that I'm one of them and it sucks.

I went to counseling again today and we sorted this out a little more. However, we aren't making much progress emotionally because my rational mind has shut down, and that's the only part of me that has true courage. The only thing keeping me going is willpower, not a genuine interest in what I'm doing or confidence that I'm okay.

Because there has never been a point in my life where I've experienced true peace, I am thinking that temporary medication might be the best route. I just need something to make me 'feel' better. Have that new experience might make it possible for me to have it without medication sometime in the future. Right now, I just want to get through the semester.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

Ah. The reason your comment confused me is because I wasn't sure which 'voices' you thought were correct. There are actually many more voices in my head than just the one telling me that I'm doomed, that one is just more plausible because it is so much worse.

It's like this: You park your car, lock the doors, and go the the twentieth floor of a building (or somewhere really far away). Someone asks you if you remembered to lock. With confidence, you say "Yes, I did lock!" Well, then the person tells you that there is a burglar running around in the parking lot. Suddenly, the stakes are much higher. You no longer feel so confident. You have to check. You have to reach a level of absolute certainty that simply is not possible. Somehow, the prospect of being robbed has unlocked your car. I don't know why some people think like this, I just know that I'm one of them and it sucks.

Well I was cheating. They are ALL correct, in their own quirky way. I'm not saying this is "truth", but it's a very useful assumption to use.

As for the car, here is the change you need if you want to have the calmness other people seem to have about the situation. You can plan for a burglar, back when you first leave the car eg as you go ask yourself, "There is probably a thief around here. Have I made the car secure enough?". Raise the stakes back then and that way you are already covered.

It's a bit like finding your car in a parking lot. The way to do this successfully is to plan for the route BACK, ie turn around and look back at the car the way you will when you come back to it later on. It's a neat trick.

[The David]

Originally Posted by DrMartinRussell

Well I was cheating. They are ALL correct, in their own quirky way. I'm not saying this is "truth", but it's a very useful assumption to use.

As for the car, here is the change you need if you want to have the calmness other people seem to have about the situation. You can plan for a burglar, back when you first leave the car eg as you go ask yourself, "There is probably a thief around here. Have I made the car secure enough?". Raise the stakes back then and that way you are already covered.

It's a bit like finding your car in a parking lot. The way to do this successfully is to plan for the route BACK, ie turn around and look back at the car the way you will when you come back to it later on. It's a neat trick.

I'm not sure how I could apply that to my obsessions. The car thing was just an analogy of something I've seen other OCs go through

I have actually found meditation to be extremely helpful. It would be a lot more helpful if I were better at it. Sitting still for 10-15 minutes quiets the obsession and gives my rational brain a chance to get a word in. By analyzing and fantasizing about death, I can restore the mystery to it that my parent's jaded me to with their disgusting horror stories.

[DrMartinRussell]

Originally Posted by The David

It's like this: You park your car, lock the doors, and go the the twentieth floor of a building (or somewhere really far away). Someone asks you if you remembered to lock. With confidence, you say "Yes, I did lock!" Well, then the person tells you that there is a burglar running around in the parking lot. Suddenly, the stakes are much higher. You no longer feel so confident. You have to check. You have to reach a level of absolute certainty that simply is not possible. Somehow, the prospect of being robbed has unlocked your car. I don't know why some people think like this, I just know that I'm one of them and it sucks.

If you recognize this as a pattern you can check it back when you "park the car". Your obsessions have patterns too, and in my experience, obsessions are often correct, but not timely. Trying to keep them quiet makes them miss the time when then are spot on with their advice, and makes them wait until a less appropriate time based on their sense of urgency of a situation.

Ever have the line in an argument, "Well why didn't you tell me that, back when I could do something about it!" ;-)