Limited seduction

[smallstar]

Cheers,

What do you think, would it be possible to learn the art of seduction from the infamous pick-up artists without buying to their philosophy and becoming one?

In various aspects in your life, you would benefit from the increased confidence, the ability to interact with people, to win friends over and to engage in successful business partnerships.

I don't see seduction as a narrow process of getting yourself as much "resource" as possible, but rather as a wonderful way of bringing into light and promoting the best things both in yourself and the other one. Why would you ever refuse such a gift?

...and one extra question for the ones living in a committed relationship: did you choose your current relationship out of Fear? If you could master the skill of seduction while at the same time keeping the relationship (how would you do that), would you still stay in that relationship, taking into accord your new knowledge? Is a Love-based choice even possible if you don't/didn't have a real choice?

-SS

[Zukin]

Originally Posted by smallstar

What do you think, would it be possible to learn the art of seduction from the infamous pick-up artists without buying to their philosophy and becoming one? In various aspects in your life, you would benefit from the increased confidence, the ability to interact with people, to win friends over and to engage in successful business partnerships.

There's a book called "Influence: Science and Practice" which is about automatic social responses, like reciprocation, liking, social proof, etc. Mystery (the pickup guru who is on the VH1 series "The Pickup Artist") has adopted many of these social responses for use in seduction, but these practices have been used in sales and business for many years.

[Ilya]

Smallstar,
Absolutely.
I've used PUA resources as part of my social adaptation in my late teens. I never liked the philosophy, but I acknowledged that these guys know their way around women. The part that I've used is not even seduction, but the respect to girls and self-respect when dealing with girls. The way how women interpret our actions to our disadvantage.
All this information and skills helped me to improve when talking to women and that in turn improved my overall social confidence. As for attracting women...
I've used pick-up skills only once. Not to pick up really, but in order not to make the usual mistakes the guys do around girls they like.
So far this resulted in a marriage, 6 years and flying. And I'm happy I learned this PUA stuff. It helped me to be ready when I met the love of my life and not to blow it.

[smallstar]

Originally Posted by Zukin

There's a book called "Influence: Science and Practice" which is about automatic social responses, like reciprocation, liking, social proof, etc. Mystery (the pickup guru who is on the VH1 series "The Pickup Artist") has adopted many of these social responses for use in seduction, but these practices have been used in sales and business for many years.

Cheers,

It took me a while to get hold of that book, but it was well worth it. The applications seem very powerful indeed, and the only big challenge seems to be sustainability - after you successfully trick the from your boss the raise you have always wanted, you should be sure that she does not feel betrayed about it, or you are going to get fired in the next available opportunity.

I can also see the connection between marketing a product and marketing yourself. Being not very social and not very interested in people, I am still sometimes called to market my product because I have intimate knowledge and faith. I wish I had a similar faith in myself.

Originally Posted by Ilya

I've used PUA resources as part of my social adaptation in my late teens. I never liked the philosophy, but I acknowledged that these guys know their way around women.

It is still mostly about faith, isn't it? If you have a sincere faith that "of all the 100+ men in this bar, I, mr. S, would be your, miss X:s, ideal partner for tonight", what else do you need? I know that the PUA's rely heavily on autosuggestion. Does this make PUAistry a religion, with in own philosophy, rituals and "rewards in this life"?

[Wulfen]

I am a so-called "Pick-Up Artist" and I run live workshops in Madrid, Spain, with positive reviews so far.

My philosophy is that the core of seduction is to become a better person, to develop an attractive personality and to learnt to transmit it better, and quicker.

Not all of us make use of "canned game": routines and gimmicks to deceive the girls. Some of us believe that the best way to become more attractive is to develop or social skills, physical appearance, lifestyle and so on. I for one am not fond of Mystery-style pickup as seen in the book "The Game", my favourite gurus are Jugger, Vin DiCarlo aka "Woodhaven", Franco, and Tyler from Real Social Dynamics.

If you want to know more about my philosophy I've written about it before in this same forum, you can read some of my posts in the "Social & Relationships" forum here (check my post history). You might find not all of us are so deeply buried in the dark side after all

So yes, in my opinion you can apply some of the seduction advice in your life. That won't erode your soul or anything like that. It's like martial arts, you learn something that actually works, and it's up to you if you use it for the greater good or for evil purposes. And I don't consider giving girls a good time anthing evil at all

About your second question, I have had multiple, non-monogamous relationships in the past (up until two weeks ago, actually). I am in a committed relationship now. Of course, not out of fear: I don't have a fear of losing her, nor I have any jealousy at all that she might be with other men. I'm with her just because it's the one I've liked most from among all the girls I've met these past years (and being a pickup coach, that's a helluva lot of them).

Being with her does not prevent me from going on learning and practicing seduction. She's well aware of what I do in this coach thing of mine, so while in clubs I approach and chat up girls (and everyone, actually) whether I am with her or not at that time. Frankly, can anything be more attractive to a woman than seeing other women become attracted to his man, but knowing that he's with her in the end?

[smallstar]

Cheers,

And thank you Wulfen for your insights.

Originally Posted by Wulfen

My philosophy is that the core of seduction is to become a better person, to develop an attractive personality and to learnt to transmit it better, and quicker.

I can agree with that, and additionally, you can use this skill in the business world.

Originally Posted by Wulfen

If you want to know more about my philosophy I've written about it before in this same forum, you can read some of my posts in the "Social & Relationships" forum here (check my post history). You might find not all of us are so deeply buried in the dark side after all

You seem to have some very good points, I think I'll learn some more (well, I've never figured myself as an "alpha male" since the word automatically connotates to the school bully with a loud voice and big fists, or the Spanish "manly man" which is held as some kind of a joke here in the liberal North - but the qualities are pretty much what I'd expect a successful man to have.)

Originally Posted by Wulfen

So yes, in my opinion you can apply some of the seduction advice in your life. That won't erode your soul or anything like that. It's like martial arts, you learn something that actually works, and it's up to you if you use it for the greater good or for evil purposes. And I don't consider giving girls a good time anthing evil at all

Muahahaha... I will use seduction to dominate the world! Well, I have no fear for my soul, my biggest worry is that engaging in heavy auto-suggestion will lead to self-deceit and can damage my honest and critical view of things.

Originally Posted by Wulfen

Being with her does not prevent me from going on learning and practicing seduction. She's well aware of what I do in this coach thing of mine, so while in clubs I approach and chat up girls (and everyone, actually) whether I am with her or not at that time. Frankly, can anything be more attractive to a woman than seeing other women become attracted to his man, but knowing that he's with her in the end?

Having discussed this with my wife, I think she would still need some "adjustment" in order to agree with this... of course it is easier in the beginning of a relationship, but I didn't think it as important then. Hopefully, the worst I'll be getting now is reciprocity, which would be actually interesting...

[Wulfen]

Hi there smallstar, glad to hear we're in the same wavelength.

Originally Posted by smallstar

Having discussed this with my wife, I think she would still need some "adjustment" in order to agree with this... of course it is easier in the beginning of a relationship, but I didn't think it as important then. Hopefully, the worst I'll be getting now is reciprocity, which would be actually interesting...

It's dangerous grounds to "become alpha" while in a relationship, because your partner will always oppose the change. It's not specifical to girlfriends or wives, it's just because people have expectations from other people and they don't want to change that perception. For instance when you start becoming more alpha even your guy friends will try to "put you back in your place", simply because you're challenging the status quo.

So expect a lot of Congruence Tests from your wife on this. It's normal situation. And I wouldn't start radically by approaching random women on bars and clubs, you could for instance start seducing your wife again: bust her playfully, play push/pull, learn to elicit her values, learn to communicate at an emotional level, to feed her rich descriptions, play with her some psychological games, dress better, learn new moves in bed and so on.

Once you get a feeling at what works and what doesn't with your wife, you can start playfully pushpulling other women in semi-public places. For instance if I'm in a restaurant with my gf I always flirt with the waitresses. I'm not actively picking them up, just busting their balls a little, and making them giggle. Basically every girl that has a job where she has to deal with clients will welcome a light-hearted ballbusting, since the majority of her clients usually will be boring or worse, rude, so you're a welcome change. Much easier than girls in clubs who are expecting lots of guys to compliment and entertain them. And since you're with your wife, you don't activate their "OMG he's trying to pick me up" radar.

At some point much later if your wife is *very* open-minded you might try to actively seduce other women. But that will of course depend on the nature of your relationship. She might perceive this as an attack on her value as a woman. So you must tread carefully here. She being sexually interested in other women helps a lot, but finding a woman interested in these kind of sexual experimentation is rare (though not impossible), and even then a lot of feelings come into play and you might hurt her feelings still. You have to frame it like you're both experimenting something new together, or else she will feel left behind.

[LifeFirst]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Smallstar,


I've used pick-up skills only once. Not to pick up really, but in order not to make the usual mistakes the guys do around girls they like.
So far this resulted in a marriage, 6 years and flying. And I'm happy I learned this PUA stuff. It helped me to be ready when I met the love of my life and not to blow it.

What did you do?? Do you remember?


I don't think you need to be a pick-up artist to seduce people. That's ridiculous. I can seduce people easily (at least I think I can) and I'm not a pick-up artist.

[xyz]

Originally Posted by smallstar :
Having discussed this with my wife, I think she would still need some "adjustment" in order to agree with this... of course it is easier in the beginning of a relationship, but I didn't think it as important then.
>>>
I think it will be easier for you if you encourage your wife to practice art of seduction herself first. Coax her to spread her wings and fly.This way she will be able to enjoy the benefits of seduction herself and will become an advocate of this art. In future she will not require any "adjustments" in this regard.

[smallstar]

Cheers,

Originally Posted by Wulfen

It's dangerous grounds to "become alpha" while in a relationship, because your partner will always oppose the change. It's not specifical to girlfriends or wives, it's just because people have expectations from other people and they don't want to change that perception. For instance when you start becoming more alpha even your guy friends will try to "put you back in your place", simply because you're challenging the status quo.

Yes, this is why we move out of our childhood homes, for example. I seem to grow so fast that I have trouble staying in one circle of friends too long - in ten years, I've built from scratch and later abandoned two successive circles of friends. So I understand that extreme care that is needed.

Originally Posted by xyz

I think it will be easier for you if you encourage your wife to practice art of seduction herself first. Coax her to spread her wings and fly.This way she will be able to enjoy the benefits of seduction herself and will become an advocate of this art. In future she will not require any "adjustments" in this regard.

Yes, this would be absolutely true.

Originally Posted by Wulfen

you could for instance start seducing your wife again

I have already had a related 30-day trial...

Originally Posted by Wulfen

you can start playfully pushpulling other women in semi-public places

This would be the big step. I feel very uncomfortable about initiating a conversion with a stranger, and many times worse still when I have a "hidden agenda". I have worked as a professional lecturer, which is easy: just have enough knowledge of your subject, have enough motivation, and stick to the point, but I've never been very good in approaching strangers.

What I have learned in body-building is this: the most important thing is that you go to gym regularly. The second most important thing is that you avoid over-extending yourself, since if you are injured, you will miss a lot of training sessions, and lose your rhythm and motivation in the process. If you do 1) and 2) right, time is your ally, and you will grow stronger every month and every year.

Since I have the advantage of not being single and desperate, I can use time as an ally. Therefore: what would be the _smallest_ thing for me to do that, repeated regularly enough (once a day for 30 days, for example) would be an improvement, such that after said 30 days, I would not feel anxiety and could install it as a habit?

-SS

[smallstar]

Cheers,

In addition to the previous: small talk is a cultural thing, and the Nordic culture is one of the hardest - if I go to talk to people, they generally expect that I have something serious to say (like: "what time is it"?) and after the serious business, they expect me to shut up and go away. There are some exceptions, like when being drunk, but generally, the biggest problem is how to initiate a conversation. Hopefully, there is a way to circumvent the problem, but at least I haven't found out it yet. Ideas, anyone?

[Phil Parkinson]

the problem with seduction is that so much of it is absolute rubbish...

I used to be heavily involved in this... I was arguably one of the most well respected PU coaches in the UK.

Some of the advice given on Pick-up forums is absolute rubbish... some of the information peddled is destructive of people's lives... that is what I had an issue with.

Not everyone can become a "player"... no matter what they tell you.

Everyone can improve though... IMO, The best and most healthy ways are to improve aesthetics and lifestyle while being as sociable as possible.

[jaydeschizo]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Smallstar,
Absolutely.
I've used PUA resources as part of my social adaptation in my late teens. I never liked the philosophy, but I acknowledged that these guys know their way around women. The part that I've used is not even seduction, but the respect to girls and self-respect when dealing with girls. The way how women interpret our actions to our disadvantage.
All this information and skills helped me to improve when talking to women and that in turn improved my overall social confidence. As for attracting women...
I've used pick-up skills only once. Not to pick up really, but in order not to make the usual mistakes the guys do around girls they like.
So far this resulted in a marriage, 6 years and flying. And I'm happy I learned this PUA stuff. It helped me to be ready when I met the love of my life and not to blow it.

Exactly the same here. Though I do not have any particular problem with their filosophy.