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ros · 11-10-2006, 09:19 AM

Ok has someone ever lied for the benefiting somebody ?

Scenario: Two friends name "A" and "B", A is working for a place that deals with inspirational music. So B asks A if it was possible to borrow one of the cds so as to copy it on her own (B not very well to do and finds it hard to afford it). Though it is not allowed A wants B to listen to the music so says it is allowed and that B can return to A once B has finished copying it. A then buys the cd from the owner gives B the cd (B does not know A has bought it)
so B can copy it and listen to it. Store is ok coz no loss since A has taken out the money to pay for the CD. A does not like CD piracy but still wants B to listen to it (Or even could be that B is A's friend and A does not want to dissapoint B)

So what went wrong here?

Michael Chui · 11-10-2006, 09:36 AM

What went wrong? Nothing.

While some of the steps seem to be a little mixed up, what I see is that A bought a CD from the store, and gave it to B as a gift. This is perfectly legit.

I have lied to friends before for their benefit. It is still a lie, and despite the hypocrisy of my statement, I would still recommend against doing so. I can, of course, see the benefits.

Stephen · 11-10-2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ros

Is a lie still a lie if it's for someone's benefit ?

Ask Kant

Michael Chui · 11-10-2006, 10:28 AM

I believe Stephen is referring to Kant's Categorical Imperative. I also believe Stephen is unclear when he says "Ask Kant".

Stephen · 11-10-2006, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I believe Stephen is referring to Kant's Categorical Imperative. I also believe Stephen is unclear when he says "Ask Kant".

On the former , yes you are correct. On the latter: It's called humour my friend. Chill out.

Michael Chui · 11-10-2006, 10:43 AM

What? You didn't see my tongue? *blows raspberry* Like the signature, btw.

Stephen · 11-10-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

What? You didn't see my tongue? *blows raspberry* Like the signature, btw.

OOPS, I should have added a wink. The power of misunderstanding, lol!

Matthew Shea · 11-10-2006, 04:00 PM

The truth is the truth and anything not true will always be a lie. You might argue that certain extenuating circumstances can JUSTIFY the lie, but in this case, A still lied to B. The problem with lies is that they cause harm. In this situation, B is pirating music for his/her benefit with A's complicity and the people responsible for creating that disc will not get their just compensation for B's use of it. In addition, B could suffer if s/he is caught with the pirated music (a rather unlikely scenario, I know).

ahimel · 11-10-2006, 04:58 PM

If something you say doesn't correspond to reality, then it's a lie. But what's reality? That's a bit trickier...

In They Have A Word For It, the author brings up a word that in Hebrew means "a (beautiful) bride." See, a while back, some Jews realised they had a problem: it's common courtesy to tell the bride she looks beautiful. But the wedding to which they had been invited featured a not-very-attractive woman, and to lie is a sin against God. So what were they to do?

They took the problem to the Rabbi, who took it to his friends, and they pondered long and hard. The decision at which they eventually arrived is that every bride is beautiful on her wedding day. Therefore, to tell her that she looks beautiful is not a lie, and not a sin.

Is this lawyering? Maybe, maybe not. She certainly looks beautiful to at least one person: the groom must think that she looks, in some sense, beautiful, or he wouldn't be marrying her. This might be because he values brains over a clear complexion, but he does think she's beautiful.

And pretty much everyone looks better on their wedding day. Everyone looks better smiling, if nothing else. And they've taken care to dress themselves and arrange their hair and makeup to show themselves to an advantage. So from a certain perspective, every bride is beautiful. If you're looking at her in that perspective when you say it, it's not a lie. If you're looking at her thinking, "What, she couldn't afford a facial for the big day?" when you say it, it is a lie.

Most people have done this with a friend. When a friend comes to me crying because no one has asked her to the Homecoming dance, and says, sobbing, "It's because of my big hips, isn't it?" what do I say? From one perspective, it IS because of her hips -- they're wider than is generally considered attractive in modern US society. But from another perspective, it's because no guy has had the decency and depth of character to look beyond her physical frame and get to know whether he likes her as a person. Two perfectly valid perspectives.. yet they result in two completely different answers. ("Yes" and "no", respectively)

Since I don't know of any ethical law that says, "When choosing between realities, you must choose to speak within the perspective that will hurt the other person the most", it's perfectly justifiable for me to hug her and say, "Not at all! Boys are just idiots, that's all."

In your scenario, I'd say that no lying occured, unless Alice said to Bob as she handed him the CD, "I am giving you this CD to create an illegal copy, and when you listen to these songs it will be piracy." Or said to the store owner when she bought the CD, "I am buying this for my own personal use, and not in order to share this music with a friend."

ros · 11-11-2006, 02:34 AM

Thanks a lot everyone for their answers, feels wonderful to have such a group of people around. Back to the story:

"A " bought the cd so that the people who created the cd will get their compensation even when A already had A's individual copy so that it might not be termed as pirated. A did not actually lie to B. B knows B is pirating the cd but with A's "help". A does not like to pirate cd but since wanted B to have it gave it to B and bought the cd for the compensation for the cd creator.

Is the story still unclear?

Brutha · 11-13-2006, 05:38 PM

B might go again to the shop where you can borrow CDs. That could lead to B hating A because A has lied to him.
That would be a Kantian argumentation.

You can weigh pros against cons, but at the end it is your choice how to act.

ReallyGoodIdeas · 11-19-2006, 10:11 AM

I've recently been through a situation where through omission, a friend was dishonest to me (see post - Trust, under Emotional Mastery), I'm going for the honesty at all costs answer. I believe honesty is vital to allow everyone to understand their reality properly. As it stands, B thinks B has a pirate copy, B thinks A condones pirating, both of which are incorrect.

How about A saying to B, "I know you can't afford it, I don't agree with pirating, so I'm giving it to you as a present"?

ros · 11-20-2006, 10:06 AM

Thanks a lot for your replies. Yeah it's true honesty is really the best policy. That will teach A not to lie. Coz it takes a lie to cover up another lie. And so it goes on....

Ali · 11-20-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen

Ask Kant

LOOL Stephen, I recently studied the Kantian theory .. according Kant you can not LIE at all what ever the reason is. I personally disagree with that as I think any rule can be broken to save humans life. Am not discussing the original story of the thread am just talking about the rule of No lying in general.

Don't you guys think that for something to be immoral or bad is to inflict harm? I mean for example looking at the good old story of an innocent person running away from a gang that wants to kill him. If he runs pass you and you see him going to wards your right and then the gang miss him and they come and ask you where is that person gone !! am sure you are going to say left not right to save that persons life.

Thanks

Ali

Wanderer · 11-21-2006, 05:31 PM

I think the above scenario is still a lie
A lie is an untruth
Can it be a kindness to lie? Yes
Can lying be the right thing to do? Probably
Would I lie? Yes, although I wouldnt feel good about it...

Milo Riano · 11-26-2006, 02:48 AM

Is killing a person considered as "killing" when you know you are preventing the person from doing something bad?

A lie is a lie and values can't be compromised. You would rather say nothing and ask the person to leave it at that.

Matthew Shea · 11-28-2006, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I think the above scenario is still a lie
A lie is an untruth
Can it be a kindness to lie? Yes
Can lying be the right thing to do? Probably
Would I lie? Yes, although I wouldnt feel good about it...

Again, yes the person mentioned in the gang scenario is still lying, but his lie would be JUSTIFIED. The whole idea of justification is that, due to some extenuating circumstance, something normally considered wrong is rendered morally acceptable.

Regarding Milo's post, I think a clarification is in order:

"Is killing a person considered as "MURDER" when you know you are preventing the person from doing something bad?"

Killing is the simple act of taking a life and is not necessarily either right or wrong. Murder is the taking of a life for immoral purposes and is, by definition, wrong. All murder is killing, but not vice versa.

Vivacious Woman · 09-23-2010, 06:58 AM

Sometimes it is better to hide something so that you can never hurt somebody. Just embed it as past is past and everything will be alright!

11-10-2006, 09:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
ros Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3	Is a lie still a lie if it's for someone's benefit ? Ok has someone ever lied for the benefiting somebody ? Scenario: Two friends name "A" and "B", A is working for a place that deals with inspirational music. So B asks A if it was possible to borrow one of the cds so as to copy it on her own (B not very well to do and finds it hard to afford it). Though it is not allowed A wants B to listen to the music so says it is allowed and that B can return to A once B has finished copying it. A then buys the cd from the owner gives B the cd (B does not know A has bought it) so B can copy it and listen to it. Store is ok coz no loss since A has taken out the money to pay for the CD. A does not like CD piracy but still wants B to listen to it (Or even could be that B is A's friend and A does not want to dissapoint B) So what went wrong here?

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11-10-2006, 09:36 AM	#2 (permalink)
Michael Chui Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 3,977	What went wrong? Nothing. While some of the steps seem to be a little mixed up, what I see is that A bought a CD from the store, and gave it to B as a gift. This is perfectly legit. I have lied to friends before for their benefit. It is still a lie, and despite the hypocrisy of my statement, I would still recommend against doing so. I can, of course, see the benefits.

11-10-2006, 10:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
Michael Chui Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 3,977	I believe Stephen is referring to Kant's Categorical Imperative. I also believe Stephen is unclear when he says "Ask Kant".

11-10-2006, 10:43 AM	#6 (permalink)
Michael Chui Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 3,977	What? You didn't see my tongue? blows raspberry Like the signature, btw.

11-10-2006, 04:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Matthew Shea Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Detroit Posts: 772	The truth is the truth and anything not true will always be a lie. You might argue that certain extenuating circumstances can JUSTIFY the lie, but in this case, A still lied to B. The problem with lies is that they cause harm. In this situation, B is pirating music for his/her benefit with A's complicity and the people responsible for creating that disc will not get their just compensation for B's use of it. In addition, B could suffer if s/he is caught with the pirated music (a rather unlikely scenario, I know).

11-10-2006, 04:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
ahimel Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boulder, Colorado Posts: 398	If something you say doesn't correspond to reality, then it's a lie. But what's reality? That's a bit trickier... In They Have A Word For It, the author brings up a word that in Hebrew means "a (beautiful) bride." See, a while back, some Jews realised they had a problem: it's common courtesy to tell the bride she looks beautiful. But the wedding to which they had been invited featured a not-very-attractive woman, and to lie is a sin against God. So what were they to do? They took the problem to the Rabbi, who took it to his friends, and they pondered long and hard. The decision at which they eventually arrived is that every bride is beautiful on her wedding day. Therefore, to tell her that she looks beautiful is not a lie, and not a sin. Is this lawyering? Maybe, maybe not. She certainly looks beautiful to at least one person: the groom must think that she looks, in some sense, beautiful, or he wouldn't be marrying her. This might be because he values brains over a clear complexion, but he does think she's beautiful. And pretty much everyone looks better on their wedding day. Everyone looks better smiling, if nothing else. And they've taken care to dress themselves and arrange their hair and makeup to show themselves to an advantage. So from a certain perspective, every bride is beautiful. If you're looking at her in that perspective when you say it, it's not a lie. If you're looking at her thinking, "What, she couldn't afford a facial for the big day?" when you say it, it is a lie. Most people have done this with a friend. When a friend comes to me crying because no one has asked her to the Homecoming dance, and says, sobbing, "It's because of my big hips, isn't it?" what do I say? From one perspective, it IS because of her hips -- they're wider than is generally considered attractive in modern US society. But from another perspective, it's because no guy has had the decency and depth of character to look beyond her physical frame and get to know whether he likes her as a person. Two perfectly valid perspectives.. yet they result in two completely different answers. ("Yes" and "no", respectively) Since I don't know of any ethical law that says, "When choosing between realities, you must choose to speak within the perspective that will hurt the other person the most", it's perfectly justifiable for me to hug her and say, "Not at all! Boys are just idiots, that's all." In your scenario, I'd say that no lying occured, unless Alice said to Bob as she handed him the CD, "I am giving you this CD to create an illegal copy, and when you listen to these songs it will be piracy." Or said to the store owner when she bought the CD, "I am buying this for my own personal use, and not in order to share this music with a friend."

11-11-2006, 02:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
ros Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3	Thanks a lot everyone for their answers, feels wonderful to have such a group of people around. Back to the story: "A " bought the cd so that the people who created the cd will get their compensation even when A already had A's individual copy so that it might not be termed as pirated. A did not actually lie to B. B knows B is pirating the cd but with A's "help". A does not like to pirate cd but since wanted B to have it gave it to B and bought the cd for the compensation for the cd creator. Is the story still unclear?

11-13-2006, 05:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
Brutha Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany Posts: 8,749	B might go again to the shop where you can borrow CDs. That could lead to B hating A because A has lied to him. That would be a Kantian argumentation. You can weigh pros against cons, but at the end it is your choice how to act.

11-19-2006, 10:11 AM	#12 (permalink)
ReallyGoodIdeas Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 320	I've recently been through a situation where through omission, a friend was dishonest to me (see post - Trust, under Emotional Mastery), I'm going for the honesty at all costs answer. I believe honesty is vital to allow everyone to understand their reality properly. As it stands, B thinks B has a pirate copy, B thinks A condones pirating, both of which are incorrect. How about A saying to B, "I know you can't afford it, I don't agree with pirating, so I'm giving it to you as a present"?

11-20-2006, 10:06 AM	#13 (permalink)
ros Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3	Thanks a lot for your replies. Yeah it's true honesty is really the best policy. That will teach A not to lie. Coz it takes a lie to cover up another lie. And so it goes on....

11-21-2006, 05:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
Wanderer Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sheffield, United Kingdom Posts: 202	I think the above scenario is still a lie A lie is an untruth Can it be a kindness to lie? Yes Can lying be the right thing to do? Probably Would I lie? Yes, although I wouldnt feel good about it...

11-26-2006, 02:48 AM	#16 (permalink)
Milo Riano Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 111	Is killing a person considered as "killing" when you know you are preventing the person from doing something bad? A lie is a lie and values can't be compromised. You would rather say nothing and ask the person to leave it at that.

09-23-2010, 06:58 AM	#18 (permalink)
Vivacious Woman Banned Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 81	Sometimes it is better to hide something so that you can never hurt somebody. Just embed it as past is past and everything will be alright!

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