I Don't Believe In Karma!

[172]

Forgive my obvious inexperience with this forum and most of the topics discussed herein. I'm indeed a newbie in every sense of the word.

With that said....I've noticed that I set myself apart from most of my peers in that I simply don't believe that the principle of karma (good and bad) is its own universal concept. I believe it's merely an offshoot or consequence of LOA.

What goes around only comes around (good or bad) when you expect it to; however it is not an independent phenomenon that is above conscious control.

The day I realized this was a day I witnessed a cashier being threatened by a customer at the grocery store. The customer desperately needed help with something seemingly small but it was against store policy and the cashier refused. The customer responded by informing the cashier that "karma is a b*tch" and then walked out. I realized then that only by virtue of whether that cashier believed in those words would the customer's admonition actually come to pass....and, so it is....I don't believe in karma! THOUGHTS?

[palimpsest]

Ugh, I so loathe what popular culture has turned karma into. I don't believe in the cosmic intelligence lining up events to make you suffer either, because people I've met seem to completely miss the point -- they moan on and on about their bad karma, they're being punished, they're bad people, they'll never deserve forgiveness, and they can't undo the bad thing that so very indirectly made this bad thing happen (convenient, eh?) ... Come on! It's a learning process, not an excuse for a self-pity party! And if they wallow instead of acting like they don't deserve this bad thing and stopping it happening, then it seems they're not learning a thing except maybe that pity is a cushy thing to have from everyone and self-destruction is an acceptable lifestyle.

Oh, and announcing, "Karma will get you back," as if they have that kind of authority? Is worse. It's like Karma is their buddy who is built like a brick wall but isn't very bright and will pound anyone down who his friend asks to... not the holy universal algorithm that ought to be respected for its impartial process and won't be called up to satisfy a petty vengeance.

I ought to feel compassion for the people around me who are so lost they need to do either of the above, but... I'm getting a lowered vibration myself... I just get annoyed.

[Scin]

Let me give you a good example of why karma exists, but isn't necessarily a supernatural phenomenon:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, knocking him down. That person gets up and punches HIM in the face.

Karma.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Scin

Let me give you a good example of why karma exists, but isn't necessarily a supernatural phenomenon:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, knocking him down. That person gets up and punches HIM in the face.

Karma.

That type is much more reasonable than:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, and three weeks later stubs his toe, or:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, and in his next incarnation gets a tax audit

[172]

Originally Posted by openeyes

That type is much more reasonable than:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, and three weeks later stubs his toe, or:

Bob Jones punches someone in the face, and in his next incarnation gets a tax audit

ITA! What's more, trial and obstacles shouldn't only be attributable to karma....those things are evolutionary mechanisms. The Karma concept is contingent upon a certain set of personal beliefs in order to be valid.

What if I'm a polygamist? Will karma deliver pain and betrayal on me for committing adultery? Only according to a monogamist.

[172]

Originally Posted by palimpsest

Ugh, I so loathe what popular culture has turned karma into. I don't believe in the cosmic intelligence lining up events to make you suffer either, because people I've met seem to completely miss the point -- they moan on and on about their bad karma, they're being punished, they're bad people, they'll never deserve forgiveness, and they can't undo the bad thing that so very indirectly made this bad thing happen (convenient, eh?) ... Come on! It's a learning process, not an excuse for a self-pity party! And if they wallow instead of acting like they don't deserve this bad thing and stopping it happening, then it seems they're not learning a thing except maybe that pity is a cushy thing to have from everyone and self-destruction is an acceptable lifestyle.

This is the part about karma I don't "get". Many, MANY an "evil" or selfish, or inconsiderate people have not reaped their just desserts for their actions when those actions have affected others or been unjust in some way. How do we explain that? If they don't consider their actions to be "evil" or selfish or inconsiderate or damaging to others, then, what happens to the law of karma in the vacuum of the absence of consicous guilt/responsibility? If you don't BELIEVE you've been offensive....karma seems to lose it's power.....which brings me back to the original point....that karma, if believed in, manifests, but if not subscribed to, not expected, not believed in....never seems to materialize. ALSO....which set of mores, values, belief-systems, etc. does karma function through? If you are a Chrisitian, funtioning through that belief system, does karma become that and judge you based on that framework? What if karma is Hindu? And, I'm not? Do I get punished for having a steak? It's all too subjective.

Originally Posted by palimpsest

Oh, and announcing, "Karma will get you back," as if they have that kind of authority? Is worse. It's like Karma is their buddy who is built like a brick wall but isn't very bright and will pound anyone down who his friend asks to... not the holy universal algorithm that ought to be respected for its impartial process and won't be called up to satisfy a petty vengeance.

I ought to feel compassion for the people around me who are so lost they need to do either of the above, but... I'm getting a lowered vibration myself... I just get annoyed.

This is the part that really got me suspicious about karma in the first place. Too many people wield it like a weapon....especially when they are the wounded party. But, they are really ill-equipped to determine if consequences are even in order. It's all too sticky.

[Freelancer]

Before I dismiss karma can somebody give me a clear and precise description we all agree on?

[172]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Before I dismiss karma can somebody give me a clear and precise description we all agree on?

How about the oft-repeated and ever-simplistic, "what goes around, comes around"?

Or, maybe that karma is a kind of cause and effect principle? My actions, good or bad, reap subsequent actions in-kind?

Or even, "you reap what you sow"?

Under the latter, wouldn't it still require BELIEF that you reap what you sow to enact karmic law?

[Shamou]

I believe that karma is simply a tool that can be used to make someone who has been wronged feel better about the situation thinking that eventually the wrongdoer will get what he deserves…

Or, something that can be used to influence people toward leading a more virtuous life…

However, I don’t think that there are any validity to the concept… if anyone wants to believe in it fine… but, don’t count me in… I’m a pure skeptic on that notion…

.

[172]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I believe that karma is simply a tool that can be used to make someone who has been wronged feel better about the situation thinking that eventually the wrongdoer will get what he deserves…

Or, something that can be used to influence people toward leading a more virtuous life…

However, I don’t think that there are any validity to the concept… if anyone wants to believe in it fine… but, don’t count me in… I’m a pure skeptic on that notion…

.

***shaking Shamou's hand*** Pleased to make your acquaintance Shamou! You are THE only and FIRST person I've ever met who felt that way (as I feel that way as well). ITA with everything you said above, and a double-nod to the bolded. That is so refreshing!

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by 172

***shaking Shamou's hand*** Pleased to make your acquaintance Shamou! You are THE only and FIRST person I've ever met who felt that way (as I feel that way as well). ITA with everything you said above, and a double-nod to the bolded. That is so refreshing!

Glad to make your acquaintance and shake your hand 172...

My guess is that quite a few people feel the way we do however would rather not express their views on the subject so as not to ruffle anyone...

But, I have personally read a great many biographies of successful people... and I have yet to find anyone who expressed any belief in Karma... at least not in modern times... Maybe it's simply because those guys are too busy succeeding to ponder on the Zen stuff...

I'm not being facetious here... I do personally use that Zen "stuff" everyday... but it's Americanized Zen... huge difference...

.

[Nathan]

I agree with all the points made in this thread. I also find it to be an absolutley beneficial concept regardless of whether it is true or false. Similarly to subjective reality concepts, it forces you to live from within and treat others as you would like to be treated... which is generally a good thing.

+karma!

[172]

Originally Posted by Nathan

I agree with all the points made in this thread. I also find it to be an absolutley beneficial concept regardless of whether it is true or false. Similarly to subjective reality concepts, it forces you to live from within and treat others as you would like to be treated... which is generally a good thing.

+karma!

I actually don't have a problem with this at all. EXCEPT....for some reason I do feel that we should do good for goodness sake and not because we want protection from bad. However, "treating others as you want to be treated" is always an excellent gauge for how to do it when you aren't sure...or what to do when you are facing some kind of challenge. But, I agree it's beneficial for the good it can inspire. But, it should never be used to assuage one's own feelings of being wronged...or to control another person's actions...

[172]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Glad to make your acquaintance and shake your hand 172...

My guess is that quite a few people feel the way we do however would rather not express their views on the subject so as not to ruffle anyone...
But, I have personally read a great many biographies of successful people... and I have yet to find anyone who expressed any belief in Karma... at least not in modern times... Maybe it's simply because those guys are too busy succeeding to ponder on the Zen stuff...

I'm not being facetious here... I do personally use that Zen "stuff" everyday... but it's Americanized Zen... huge difference...

.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here. This is my first thread and I am new. *hiding behind ignorance* That was never my intention. Just constructive dialogue. And, I also am very fond of Eastern spiritual concepts....it's just Karma....that's one that never made sense, particularly with more understanding of LOA.

[absvan]

Karma is nothing but the law of cause-effect or what goes around comes around. It is a universal law and it exists whether you believe in it or not.

This is how I understand it works. Everything in the universe is energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed but can be converted from one form to another.

So any action involves using energy. When you use energy it has to be balanced somehow by expending it. In the above scenario, the cashier and the customer has used some energy and it will be balanced somehow by the law of karma....and it also depends on the type of energy used - positive or negative.

My 2 cents...

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by absvan

Karma is nothing but the law of cause-effect or what goes around comes around. It is a universal law and it exists whether you believe in it or not.

This is how I understand it works. Everything in the universe is energy. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed but can be converted from one form to another.

So any action involves using energy. When you use energy it has to be balanced somehow by expending it. In the above scenario, the cashier and the customer has used some energy and it will be balanced somehow by the law of karma....and it also depends on the type of energy used - positive or negative.

My 2 cents...

If that were the case, how would you explain the following hypothetical situation...

Two nations are at war with each others... each of the opposing factions are absolutely certain of the validity of their cause... each are willing to kill or die for that cause...

Now, whose side will that karma be on...??? There are no absolute right or wrong here... yet a lot of hurtful actions will be done... in that case, who gets the shaft...???

.

.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Now, whose side will that karma be on...???

I am not trying to say what is right or wrong. I have mentioned in my post that both the cashier and the customer have used energy....how the energy will be balanced will be done by karma.

If you want my opinion, then I would say that if the cashier really cheated the customer, then he will experience something similar elsewhere and the customer on the other hand used negative energy of anger and that will be balanced in some other way.

Originally Posted by Shamou

There are no absolute right or wrong here... yet a lot of hurtful actions will be done..

Exactly. I am not trying to say who is right or wrong. Universe does not say that this is bad or good. Karma is not a person/cop or an object sitting somewhere observing your actions. Its the way energy flows and operates in this universe.

In your context, both the nations are at war and the energies used will be balanced someway. Both the nations loose soldiers and lives.