Democracy in the Home

[Akashic_Librarian]

A sense of honour and justice, and democracy and fairness should be within every human being but as I see it. People have no time for fairness, or honesty or decency or even democratic decisions!

This morning I saw the most corrupt decision I think I have witnessed under this roof. I got up early with the express reasoning of going to watch The Matrix: Reloaded, because I wanted to. So I go downstairs, I pop in the DVD and away I go. About half an hour in I go and make myself some breakfast, I come back in only to see my brother has turned off telling me “We aren't watching that Matrix crap” So I argue, and I get very angry, I rush up to my parents room in the hope that I can solve this fairly and democratically. All I get as a reply is thus “No, we aren't watching that Matrix crap!” That's what I got. From my parents who are essentially supposed to be the unbiased, democratic centre of any household correct? Well apparently not. Apparently democracy is all too inconvenient when it means the decision maker might be benefited or annoyed. Imagine such a travesty as a decision not going your way?
Well I was mad to be sure. But I tried to remain calm, I started telling them that it was unfair that my brother should have precedent over me simply because his program was more acceptable to you. Logical right? Fair, right? Yes I thought so too, but apparently not. According to my parents, and this is their own words here, “If it was something else then yeah we would have told him to put it back on, but because it was The Matrix, then we can't support that rubbish”

Who else here has a problem with this type of behaviour? Surely this is not acceptable.

I don't know about anyone else here but I would NEVER act like this towards my children, NEVER. Its obscene to think that this is acceptable....it has to be.

[Chet]

First off as you say in homes there is a 'decision maker', so they are not by nature a democracy.
Second if it was an actual democracy seems your side would have lost the vote.
What you are looking for is fairness not democracy and simple fact is; life is not fair.

[Blueskied]

Sounds pretty democratic to me.
3:1 votes against The Matrix (although the reasons might be dubious, Matrix ain't that bad after all).

[Brutha]

Maybe you have annoyed them so much with your: You aren't real after all subjective reality talk, that they dont want you to see a movie that doubts that our current reality isn't real.

[Michelle]

It is understandable that you would feel hurt because they didn't even seem to listen to you or give any sign that they understood your point of view. It also sounds like they aren't taking you seriously. Had they done that, they may have made a concrete suggestion as to when you could watch the film that is important to you. Communicating with people who choose not to listen or take their conversation partner seriously can be very frustrating indeed.

Perhaps if you would start setting an example for good communication they would follow:

Mom and Dad: Matrix is rubbish and we won't support you watching it.
You: I realize/understand/hear that you feel matrix is rubbish and that you do not wish to support me watching it. However, it is important to me for these reasons:
Mom and Dad: We don't care. We don't want to talk about it.
You: I realize/understand/hear you don't care and that you don't want to talk about it. However it makes me feel (sad, angry, frustrated) when ...

By mirroring what they say you make it clear that you have heard and understood them. Most people just want to be heard, and when they are there can be surprising results.

[Dharma]

Kinda what Michelle is saying with the mirroring is you're not accepting the moment at all. You're fighting it tooth and nail. Doing what she said can bring you to more acceptance of what is (you're not watching the matrix now).

From a point of reception/acceptance of the moment, your intention can begin to flow again. Maybe if you ate your breakfast watching whatever your brother wanted to, he would soon leave the TV and do something else.

That possibility can never come up if you're fighting the whole situation and focusing on how unfair it is.

[Jill]

Slightly off-topic, but I have to say that it was refreshing to see that even with all his amazing insights and intelligence, Akashic_Librarian IS still a kid underneath it all.

That said, personally, I don't think it was appropriate for you to even get your parents involved in a squabble between you and your brother. I don't know how old your brother is, but going up to "tell" on him seems more like the behavior of a younger child.

That doesn't excuse your parent's answer either, though. If I were your parent and you came to me with the problem at hand, I would have told you that it wasn't my business and was between you and your brother to solve. And if you couldn't resolve it peacefully, then neither of you would be watching TV that day.

[munish]

The older generations have produced this world and you have to change it .

[Akashic_Librarian]

OK thanks everyone. @Jill...you think I have amazing insights... or is it just...sarcasm?

[Gordon]

What did your brother want to watch?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ermm I don't know really. At this point it is irrelevant. All that matters is the injustice of this. It was almost like looking at a microcosm of my LIFE. Basically because I believe / want to watch / act something different, then I get put into the minority, I get pushed the back, my needs are second to the ones the Authority decides is right.

Pfft...

[Brutha]

Basically because I believe / want to watch / act something different, then I get put into the minority, I get pushed the back,

That is a pretty good and insightful description of democracy .

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

OK thanks everyone. @Jill...you think I have amazing insights... or is it just...sarcasm?

Not sarcasm. I haven't read all of your posts, but many that I have, have knocked my socks off. You seem to understand very complicated issues that people 3 times your age wouldn't get.

No need for you to worry about silly things like democracy in your home!

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by Brutha

That is a pretty good and insightful description of democracy .

Actually a sign of a good democracy is that it takes care of its minorities.

[Akashic_Librarian]

@Jill



Thanks!

[Michael Chui]

I still remember a fight I had with my dad that ended with him shouting, "I'm the master of the house."

So, naturally, I still remember that when I play Les Miserables - Master of the House.

I'm not sure where you get your idea that families are supposed to be democratic. That's such a... strange concept. Next you're going to tell me that your grades are democratically agreed upon and the corporation that decided not to hire you was unjust.

I mean, really. How many times did Morpheus take a vote?

[Ree]

I feel that way about violent movies. I detest them.

And I forbid anyone to watch them in my house in the family room. If someone wants to watch a violent movie, it must be done in the privacy of their own room with the door closed and the volume adjusted so that I don't have to listen to it. And I am the final decision-maker as to what is too violent.

I'm not saying The Matrix is a violent movie, but I can relate to your parents who just object to the Matrix. They have their reasons. They're entitled to their opinions. I'm entitled to object to gratuitous violence and profanity and I do object and everyone in my household just lives with it, because I'm the mama and you know what they say: When mama's not happy, nobody's happy.

I'll tell you, AL, what I tell my sons: Have patience. You'll be on your own soon enough and then you can make your own decisions about things such as this. When my sons have their own homes, I wouldn't dream of opposing their decisions. But in the meantime, this is my house and my decision and I expect the same respect that I will offer to you when you have your own place. So my youngest son watches The Godfather on his laptop and uses earphones out of respect for me and I treasure that

Now, let me add that I do not lay down the law often... hardly ever actually. But this is something I feel strongly about and something I cannot abide. Frankly, I think violence in movies is a large part of what's wrong with the world today. It's my small way of refusing to say it's okay.

[ticktockclok]

Originally Posted by Ree

I'll tell you, AL, what I tell my sons: Have patience. You'll be on your own soon enough and then you can make your own decisions about things such as this.

I hate it when adults say that. There are many minorities in the United States; the single most oppressed one are youth. Its one of the problems with school too; school teaches you that life is just one big waiting game, waiting for college, waiting for a job, waiting for retirement. Some people say that it will make kids more thirsty for independence and democracy. Not true. How are you supposed to learn how to be a responsible citizen of a democracy when you've spent your entire life in a dictatorship? School makes you believe that independence is some far-off concept; its unattainable.

[Rin]

In my home, the Golden Rule is: the one who makes the gold, makes the rules! And that's me!

Not to make light of your plight, Akashic Librarian. You're a resourceful person, and I know that you'll figure out a way to get this stuff done, without having to go through your folks first. Hope you feel better now, anyway!

[Lychee]

If you don't like it, move out.

[reflections]

Move out if it's that bad, otherwise democracy is a myth in the household. Wait until you move in with your GF or SO, that's when the real battle begins.

[Michelle]

That sounds very cynical. Democracy is not a myth if that is what the members of a household want. I can tell you that having grown up in an abusive dictatorship did nothing to help me on my journey into adulthood. It did make me resentful of and angry toward my parents with whom I have no contact today, and it has made me consider very carefully how I will parent.

The most important things in a home are love and mutual respect. Why bother having a family if you all you want is to sit on your throne and proclaim "I am the king because I have the money". Would you be happy if someone said that to you?

I agree completely that there must be rules made for the benefit of children. However, rules are often made arbitrarily and not open to discussion which I think is detrimental. If you don't allow your own children to question you and your decisions, to learn to think for themselves and engage in productive conflict resolution how should they do that in school or later in professional life?

A parent's place is not to relish in being the powerful ruler over a few weaker subjects.

[Kamma]

I do understand how irritating it can be not to get your own way. Although you will probably argue this statement that is actually what you're upset about. You wanted to watch the movie - your parents said no. It never feels fair when a sibling wins over another basically because one is the 'loser'. I remember this on many occassions growing up with my older sister. Some battles were wom by her, some by me. It is the nature in families.
I know that you do not feel your parents were fair but you did ask for them to get involved and I was brought up to always respect my parents' dedisions whether I agreed with them or not. They are after all my parents and elders.

I hope things are calmer in your household now

[Ree]

Our household is a benevolent dictatorship. I love my children more than my own life, but I refuse to spoil them. My husband and I make the money, we established our household and we set the standards. We are attempting to pass those standards on to our children. If they don't embrace those same standards, fine with me. Once they're on their on, they are really on their own.

And for the record, I had to wait patiently as an adolescent until I could go to college, then get a job and finally have my own home. I suffered the same teenage angst that all, or most, do. In fact it was one of the things that propelled me on my way to independence.

[carenkh]

I had just posted this resource on another discussion, but think it's a propos here:

Welcome to Consensual-Living.com - Home Page

This is what I strive for in my house, the search for mutual solutions - *not* democracy. It is difficult to not be heard, and I believe, too, that's the antithesis of how I want the world to be... so I listen to my kids, and what each wants, and we find mutually-agreeable solutions. Wonder if your parents/brother would be interested in exploring this?

After living this way and unschooling for years, the concept of someone having more sway in decision-making because they make the money is... bizarre to me, at best. Especially in regards to children, because what choice do they have?

It has been an interesting journey, completely changing how I view parenting. I love how we're living, now. It reflects the world I want to live in.

There are some interesting discussions in the archives of the consensual living yahoo group. Check it out if you're interested!

[Ree]

Of course we listen to the viewpoints and the wants and wishes of our sons. They know we love them. They know we want them to be safe, successful, stimulated and we have NEVER demanded that they be run-of-the-mill conformists. Our oldest son is a Socialist, for crying out loud We've never insisted that they march like little soldiers.

On the other hand, when our oldest got suspended from high school because he dyed his mohawk haircut bright blue and glued it out straight like spokes on a wheel and told the principal he would not get it cut, the hair had to go. We listened to what he desired to do with his hair. We let him do what he wanted with his hair, but when the consequences got serious and he wasn't meeting our very simple standards of staying in school, we stepped in and made the right decision for him. He hated us then. He thanks us now, because he's in college and plans to get his Ph.D. and then join the Peace Corp. We support that plan. My youngest has taken a year off school and is working and saving his money. He wants to go to sky-diving school and jump before he's 21. I support that plan. Don't know if I can bear to watch, but I support him

I think parents have to let kids know that while you'll listen and consider their viewpoints, there are times when you just can't be flexible. There are times that demand that you don't give in and for the sake of those times when it really matters, parents have to make sure it's clearly understood who is in charge.

[reflections]

As I was saying: "it's a myth." Sure there are plenty of people who "want" democracy, they talk about it, but as soon as someone comes along who challenges their beliefs it all "you're cynical" or "cut that mohawk off!" Sure we all love our families etc but I'm not going to pretend that I democracy exists within the majority of families just because it suits some people's romantic ideals to think that they are "democratic." With the amount of rules and obligations that most families hold to until grim death why call it a democracy? It's an ego trip on steroids without a trace of honesty.

[Michelle]

In a democracy not everyone gets their way, however in most instances all points of view are considered. In the end some way takes precedence over another but people tend to respect these decisions more because all options were considered carefully. It is when certain points of view are simply discarded that frustration, rebellion and hatred arise.

[Nelson]

Is your household supposed to be a democracy? I know that my house growing up had absolutely nothing to do with democracy and was never supposed to be like one.

However, whether your house was democracy or not is irrelevant. Trying to use the authority in a democracy is a slow beauracratic process.

You should attack the problem at it's core. Convince your brother to do something else, such as use the computer, hang out with his girlfriend or soemthing similar. Trying to use your parents to solve your problems only takes the ball out of your hands.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Ree

On the other hand, when our oldest got suspended from high school because he dyed his mohawk haircut bright blue and glued it out straight like spokes on a wheel and told the principal he would not get it cut, the hair had to go. We listened to what he desired to do with his hair. We let him do what he wanted with his hair, but when the consequences got serious and he wasn't meeting our very simple standards of staying in school, we stepped in and made the right decision for him. He hated us then. He thanks us now, because he's in college and plans to get his Ph.D. and then join the Peace Corp....I think parents have to let kids know that while you'll listen and consider their viewpoints, there are times when you just can't be flexible. There are times that demand that you don't give in and for the sake of those times when it really matters, parents have to make sure it's clearly understood who is in charge.

Well... it's not "giving in"; it's being open to the fact that other viewpoints are just as valid as my own. In the above example, I would have asked "Why do you want your hair this way? Is it more important to have that, or stay in school? Is there a way to get that need met another way? If that hair is important to you, maybe there's another way to get the need for school met - homeschooling, GED, etc. Let's talk to the principal and see exactly what the standards are... is blue OK, but the spikes have to go? Are you willing to do that?" etc., etc. Too many possibilities to mention here. Along with a FULL discussion/exploration of the possible ramifications of each decision. Without anyone ever having to hate anyone else.

Please know I'm not saying you should have handled it any differently; you sound like a very aware, open-minded parent. Just wanted to show how someone living consensually would have dealt with it. While someone getting a PhD and joining the Peace Corps is laudable, if his hair had led him somewhere else, he may be doing something even more notable - that HE could take full responsibility for.