Why veganism isn't morally superior

[Antigod]

Ok so I recently saw a post on Steve's blog that basically said meat-eaters are like nazis. He posts a video of chickens getting grinded to enhance his message.

This got me thinking - if killing things for food is wrong, what about killing things merely because they annoy us?

Insects are little animals, and most people don't think twice about fly spraying annoying flies.

What about bacteria? that's alive. When you sanatise your bench, you are commiting genocide.

Hell, even washing your hands is genocide.

The only way to be moral then is to eat only fruit that has fallen from the tree, and to never wash. Even then you'll still kill things accidently, because that's how nature works. Things die so other things can live.

[Dharma]

We make it up as we go. The omnivorus way, the veganism... we just make it up. There's no right or wrong to it.

[Agota]

I think veganism in many cases can be considered to be morally superior considering how horribly most animals are treated. You can argue about whether it's immoral or not to kill animals for food, but can you really argue that it's immoral to raise animals in horrible conditions, torture them all of their lives and then butcher them alive which includes cutting a cow that is alive open? I don't think immoral is the right word here, because it's plain sick! This is what is happening in most meat factories, however. Watch the documentary "Earthlings" to get the idea. This is what people usually mean when they say that they chose vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons.

Okay, obviously I can't really speak for Steve, but I highly doubt that he would call some granny who raises chickens in some village, lets them walk around freely, feeds them well and probably even talks to them a modern day nazi or would have huge issues with the fact that granny use eggs laid by her chickens to make an omlette for her grand kids. Obviously, people kill animals in villages as well, but they usually have a completely different attitude towards it: they have an emotional connection with animals, they respect them and they make sure that their death is fast and painless. We can argue about the ethics of killing an animal, but well.. I don't know about Steve, but I couldn't compare people who kill animals like that with Nazis.

I think that the real problem is not the fact that we kill animals for food, but the fact that it's a mass genocide of animals going on where millions of living beings are kept in horrible conditions, tortured and slaughtered everyday. This is what should be forbidden by law.

[JSB]

In your "village granny" example, Agota, you make a good point between the different types of meat eating, vegetarianism, etc.

If we are talking purely about minimizing the unnecessary killing of animals, then your village granny raising chickens and goats and a cow for eggs, meat and milk is causing far fewer animal deaths than a modern strict vegan living in a large city.

Granny's food is locally raised and she kills only what she eats. A modern urban citizen is eating food that is industrially produced and shipped from hundreds of miles away. The oil used in gasoline for shipping and production of artificial fertilizer, and the massive monoculture crop fields where the food is grown both cause far more environmental damage and habitat destruction (and therefore animals deaths) than someone eating naturally raised local food.

Of course, granny's neighbor is a strict Buddhist monk and only eats the fruit and vegetables grown in his garden, so he isn't killing any animals!

Originally Posted by Agota

I think veganism in many cases can be considered to be morally superior considering how horribly most animals are treated. You can argue about whether it's immoral or not to kill animals for food, but can you really argue that it's immoral to raise animals in horrible conditions, torture them all of their lives and then butcher them alive which includes cutting a cow that is alive open? I don't think immoral is the right word here, because it's plain sick! This is what is happening in most meat factories, however. Watch the documentary "Earthlings" to get the idea. This is what people usually mean when they say that they chose vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons.

Okay, obviously I can't really speak for Steve, but I highly doubt that he would call some granny who raises chickens in some village, lets them walk around freely, feeds them well and probably even talks to them a modern day nazi or would have huge issues with the fact that granny use eggs laid by her chickens to make an omlette for her grand kids. Obviously, people kill animals in villages as well, but they usually have a completely different attitude towards it: they have an emotional connection with animals, they respect them and they make sure that their death is fast and painless. We can argue about the ethics of killing an animal, but well.. I don't know about Steve, but I couldn't compare people who kill animals like that with Nazis.

I think that the real problem is not the fact that we kill animals for food, but the fact that it's a mass genocide of animals going on where millions of living beings are kept in horrible conditions, tortured and slaughtered everyday. This is what should be forbidden by law.

[danas]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so I recently saw a post on Steve's blog that basically said meat-eaters are like nazis. He posts a video of chickens getting grinded to enhance his message.

This got me thinking - if killing things for food is wrong, what about killing things merely because they annoy us?

Insects are little animals, and most people don't think twice about fly spraying annoying flies.

What about bacteria? that's alive. When you sanatise your bench, you are commiting genocide.

Hell, even washing your hands is genocide.

The only way to be moral then is to eat only fruit that has fallen from the tree, and to never wash. Even then you'll still kill things accidently, because that's how nature works. Things die so other things can live.

Yeah I dont get that. I just ate my cat and people say Im cruel. But I say, you just ate a cow! Cats are smaller and more common than cows.
So how is that wrong?? I may eat the dog tomorrow.

[Dharma]

If there are factory farms in your world, you are creating factory farms.

Even vegans create a world with factory farms and pretend they don't.

So what's to learn?

Factory farming is symbolic of the way we solve problems in our world. We use denial in the form of linkage. Linkage is logic.
Ex. "How the hell am I gonna feed this country hamburgers?" The logical mind would dream up something like the factory farm. It's very standardized, has measurable input and output, and gets the job done while maintaining costs.

Meanwhile it has no heart, is a lot of work, and is not the most efficient use of land or resources.

The factory farm is a mirror of how you've lost your connection to essence and are creating your reality with denial. The reflection is pretty intense and pretty gross, but still not enough to wake anyone up and have them begin looking how they're creating their experiences. So the farm persists.

Some on the forum are reading Seth right now. That would be a good place to start. Also become conscious of how many things you bring into your life with a process. Job--> money--> groceries, for example. An act of creation makes the job, then the money, and then the groceries. What would it feel like to skip the first two and just create 'groceries'. Hmmmm.

[Gazzali]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think veganism in many cases can be considered to be morally superior considering how horribly most animals are treated. You can argue about whether it's immoral or not to kill animals for food, but can you really argue that it's immoral to raise animals in horrible conditions, torture them all of their lives and then butcher them alive which includes cutting a cow that is alive open? I don't think immoral is the right word here, because it's plain sick! This is what is happening in most meat factories, however. Watch the documentary "Earthlings" to get the idea. This is what people usually mean when they say that they chose vegan or vegetarian diet for ethical reasons.

Okay, obviously I can't really speak for Steve, but I highly doubt that he would call some granny who raises chickens in some village, lets them walk around freely, feeds them well and probably even talks to them a modern day nazi or would have huge issues with the fact that granny use eggs laid by her chickens to make an omlette for her grand kids. Obviously, people kill animals in villages as well, but they usually have a completely different attitude towards it: they have an emotional connection with animals, they respect them and they make sure that their death is fast and painless. We can argue about the ethics of killing an animal, but well.. I don't know about Steve, but I couldn't compare people who kill animals like that with Nazis.

I think that the real problem is not the fact that we kill animals for food, but the fact that it's a mass genocide of animals going on where millions of living beings are kept in horrible conditions, tortured and slaughtered everyday. This is what should be forbidden by law.

Animals react by instinct and not by "feelings' or emotions. A crocodile feeds on anything that pass by the river does the attack by instinct to survive. The prey shoots off to safety also do it by instinct. We humans with full consciousness based these acts on our own "feelings" towards them. We are concious beings. We think that the animals conciousness is also similar to us.

I have written a blog post on this. Perhaps you can read it there

[Cado]

Arguing moral superiority on anything when you buy goods from major producers/manufacturers is pretty pointless. The stuff kids go through when putting your shoes or computers together is just as, if not more, sickening than what happens to chickens. Frankly I'm disgusted that the suffering of animals is so often placed before/above the suffering of humans, but I digress.

The way I see it, if you really want change that means committing to the most effective course of action possible. If there is a moral imperative placed on decisions like this, that's where it belongs. Becoming a vegan, not owning a computer, that's not gonna do **** for anyone (or any creature) that's suffering.

The morally superior life is either activism or abstinence. If you drive a car, use the internet, etc., and you're not taking part in a movement to bring about systemic change then you're as bad as the rest of us.

[James81]

That article was just a marketing ploy. And it's still working.

[forexpreneur]

Originally Posted by Antigod

Ok so I recently saw a post on Steve's blog that basically said meat-eaters are like nazis. He posts a video of chickens getting grinded to enhance his message.

This got me thinking - if killing things for food is wrong, what about killing things merely because they annoy us?

Insects are little animals, and most people don't think twice about fly spraying annoying flies.

What about bacteria? that's alive. When you sanatise your bench, you are commiting genocide.

Hell, even washing your hands is genocide.

The only way to be moral then is to eat only fruit that has fallen from the tree, and to never wash. Even then you'll still kill things accidently, because that's how nature works. Things die so other things can live.

Veganism is no less "murder" than eating meat. Sorry, but science has proven that lettuce, and other plants scream when cut and chewed it's just out of our range of hearing. Plants and fruits are living things also. It's just that fruit is tastier sperm and eggs. I say bring back the free range lettuce!!!! LOL.

[180]

Cells are cells. I see no difference and why we should treat a dog different than a tomato or seed.

If the whole issue is that animals feel pain, we could get away with eating eggs then, since there are no nerve fibers to relay to the animal that they are being eaten.

Morality is incredibly subjective and hence the endless debate. But frankly I wouldn't mind eating a dog or human if it really came to it. It wouldn't be my preference but cells are cells in any form they take. All living beings are parasitic (sans plants that make their own food). But humans by nature are parasites. We consume some other life form so we can exist.

You either die or uphold the moral code of letting other animals live. If you want to take some half assed medium then take it but don't demonize the rest of society for eating meat.

[danas]

I am vegan but I find it very problematic to compare Nazis to meat eaters.
If the victims of meat eater are animals, then are the victims of Nazis animals? They thought so...Nazis actually compared Jews to animals.

I recently saw Nazi propaganda footage (1939) where Jews are compared to animals. rats to be precise . Like a cancer of society that needs to be eliminated, because the Jews multiply and spread diseases according to the narrator. Jews, gays, disabled, gypsies etc were killed with gas that was initially developed as pesticides.
If Steve were in Nazi Germany the first to be killed would be Steve's kids. Because they are Jewish by birth (and like many other Jews in Europe, being an atheist wouldnt save them.)
Now can these murderers of your kids be compared to the next door neighbor who is having steak for dinner?
No? So dont compare.
sorry but this comparison bothered me when the article came out as it does now too...

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Gazzali

Animals react by instinct and not by "feelings' or emotions. A crocodile feeds on anything that pass by the river does the attack by instinct to survive. The prey shoots off to safety also do it by instinct. We humans with full consciousness based these acts on our own "feelings" towards them. We are concious beings. We think that the animals conciousness is also similar to us.

I have written a blog post on this. Perhaps you can read it there

I don't think anyone would argue the presence of instinct but how exactly do you know there isn't more going on behind the surface with these or any animal?

As to the issue of moral superiority, it's all a big joke. Another avenue to fuel false identities and enhance separation. Morality in the way most people grasp it causes more suffering than it does help.

[Clint Cora]

I am not a vegan -- and I don't feel morally inferior.

On another note since there were references to dogs here, I'm pretty sure that we will have all dog and cat owners here agreeing that not all animals were created equally. That is, dogs and cats have souls.

For those who are not dog or cat owners, I wouldn't bother even trying to debate this. There's no hope in hell that anyone can convince a dog or cat owner that their pets are not above all other animals

[dailybitsofwisdom]

The real problem vegetarians are concerned with is the nature of which the animals are killed and the way they are raised.

You're starting to see more people care about the origins of their food inquiring into details such as the circumstances under which the food was harvested. We're seeing an increase in people buying local produce rather than items shipped from out of state as well as in increase in free-range animals.