Is greed good…???

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

I know greed has some negativity attached to it, but I wanted to emphasize on its positives.

Good article jamestl2...

Greed is only a word so there is no reason to be affraid of it... it always depend on how it is used... just like most other words...

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[medaille]

I read that top 10 list, and to me, most of the points were arguable as to whether they were actually good or not.

example:

2. Creates Jobs
Due to the nature of Greed-driven capitalism, the economy becomes stronger, which therefore results in more company motivation and job creation. The more power companies have, the more wealth they generate, thus more opportunities are created for people to work with them.

There is no correlation between quality of life and the strength of the economy (measured in GDP). You could just have equivalently stated that greed encourages outsourcing and the loss of jobs. The trickle-down effect is propaganda and not accurate at all. Greed also caused the employees for Enron severe hardship and the people of California to suffer rolling blackouts and the resulting economic losses.

7. Stimulates the passion in life
Along with the human and economic factors, emotional displays play a part too. Without Greed, we would not desire to win at games, or succeed at work, etc.

Huh? What you're saying is that wanting to be good at stuff is greedy?

Mostly, I think the Greed is Good crowd is just misdefining the word greed.

See the above quote from the 5th Element to see how this logic is turned to make evil good.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by medaille

There is no correlation between quality of life and the strength of the economy (measured in GDP). You could just have equivalently stated that greed encourages outsourcing and the loss of jobs. The trickle-down effect is propaganda and not accurate at all. Greed also caused the employees for Enron severe hardship and the people of California to suffer rolling blackouts and the resulting economic losses.

You’re using one extreme example of how greed also causes people a few problems. What about the hundreds of thousands of other businesses that run the economy and make up the world we live in? The executives from Enron don’t exactly represent all Greedy people, just the few crooked ones.

Originally Posted by medaille

Huh? What you're saying is that wanting to be good at stuff is greedy?

Mostly, I think the Greed is Good crowd is just misdefining the word greed.

What would you call it then? Is it not a “form of greed”, I don’t really think I am disdaining the word here. I think that the Anti-greed crowd doesn’t like to admit the fact that there are positives that come with it.


I’m not saying that people who think greed is bad are communist, but without it where is the motivation? Enlightened Self-Interest is just not enough to make a difference for people these days

Also, the title of my list was reasons Greed was *Favorable*, which doesn’t necessarily mean it is “morally or ethically good”.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

I’m not saying that people who think greed is bad are communist, but without it where is the motivation? Enlightened Self-Interest is just not enough to make a difference for people these days

That's exactly the kind of thinking which has lead us to increasing GNP but decreasing happiness and increasing suicide rates. Could you elaborate?

I think the main issue here is that those who are pro-greed, define greed in similar way to which those who are anti-greed define enlightened self-interest. But each of us see the other side as anathema, and so find it difficult to see those similarities.

I read your list James, and I think all of the positives come from an attitude of enlightened self-interest. For example Bill Gate's generousity could not be anything to do with greed, IMO, because greed requires benefiting oneself more than others. I see it as an act of enlightened self-interest, because it a) would make him happy to be doing something truly worthwhile with his money, b) it improves others' opinion of him which will certainly benefit him, and c) it benefits others in a greater measurable way than it benefits him. The way I see greed, b) would be irrelevant, and c) would be unacceptable.

Maybe I'd better understand your point of view if you explained how you saw enlightened self-interest.

{edit: It just occurred to me, enlightened greed would be a more agreeable term, if defined as a driving desire which takes into account, and strives to avoid the detrimental effects it's expression could have.}

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Maybe I'd better understand your point of view if you explained how you saw enlightened self-interest.

According to Wikipedia.com:

Enlightened self-interest is a philosophy in ethics which states that persons who act to further the interests of others (or the interests of the group or groups to which they belong), ultimately serve their own self-interest. It has often been simply expressed by the belief that an individual, group, or even a commercial entity will "do well by doing good".

This is in contrast to greed or the concept of "unenlightened self-interest".

So, from my point of view, true Enlightened Self-Interest involves people who do not "intend" to be greedy, but result in being greedy nonetheless.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

So, from my point of view, true Enlightened Self-Interest involves people who do not "intend" to be greedy, but result in being greedy nonetheless.

By your definition of greedy, as a positive thing?

So is the distinction the initial intent? True greed intends to further its own interests, and true enlightened self-interest intends to further the interests of all?

Also, you didn't clarify how enlightened self-interest is not enough to make a difference these days.

In a world as interconnected as ours is, the way to make the most difference is to take that interconnectedness into account. I.e., we can't ignore the effect our actions have on others, both positive and negative effects of any action.

They say it's the thought that counts, but it's the action that generates repercussions.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

By your definition of greedy, as a positive thing?

So is the distinction the initial intent? True greed intends to further its own interests, and true enlightened self-interest intends to further the interests of all?

No, I don’t see greed as being either positive or negative (Think Yin and Yang), just the consequences of it.

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Also, you didn't clarify how enlightened self-interest is not enough to make a difference these days.

I may have worded it kind of funny, all I meant by this was that “Anti-Greed people think that enlightened self-interest is not a powerful enough motivator for political leaders, CEO’s, etc. to make a difference in the world, and that their own personal negative greed is what drives them”.
(As if this sounds a whole lot better)

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

{edit: It just occurred to me, enlightened greed would be a more agreeable term, if defined as a driving desire which takes into account, and strives to avoid the detrimental effects it's expression could have.}

Mark... could it be possible that you personally attach a lot of baggage to the word "greed" and that you have some difficulties in viewing it in your usually totally objective and detached manner...???

.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Mark... could it be possible that you personally attach a lot of baggage to the word "greed" and that you have some difficulties in viewing it in your usually totally objective and detached manner...???

.

Or the same could be said of your relentless attachment to the word 'greed' Shamou, which is normally used and viewed in a negative sense. Perhaps there is a better way to describe the traits you see and wish to highlight as desirable? Like anything there are different views on words...for instance the 'sticks and stones' or it's 'just a word' view, or the view that words can cause you to be arrested, and have even caused wars, or visa versa have inspired people to amasing feats.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Mark... could it be possible that you personally attach a lot of baggage to the word "greed" and that you have some difficulties in viewing it in your usually totally objective and detached manner...???

.

Could be, could be... I can't think of any reason for me to be carrying that baggage, but then I'm learning things about myself every day, so it could be in here somewhere.

What I do know is that I'm opposed to the dilution of meaning that takes place when words are used in ways that significantly alter their meaning, when doing so isn't necessary.

Doing so is problematic because it can also serve as justification for those who live by the original meaning, but claim to follow the new. I.e., people who harm others through their greed can define greed as beneficial in an attempt to hide the negative ramifications. And that does happen, and people do allow themselves to be mislead.

Mind you those who are so unscrupulous would probably find a way to twist other words to their design, if 'greed' wasn't used, but I don't think we should make it any easier for them, nor any more confusing for those easily mislead.