Maybe this community needs a bit of doubt.

[Karanime]

A trend I've noticed in this forum is that good and bad seems clear-cut. There are certain things here that all the people here believe we should strive for, and there are other things that the people here believe we should move away from.

I would consider myself "evil" in the traditional sense. I'm sure a lot of people here could consider themselves "evil" as well, because they go against certain social norms like monogamy. But I've made it a point to be what others do not want to be, simply because I know others won't try it.

I am also quite the empath. So despite my efforts to be evil, I cannot bring myself to be cruel to another person.

Lastly, I am obsessed with truth. I doubt myself constantly on purpose because I want to make sure what I'm believing is true. If I think that something I believe may not be true, I will often test it using a version of the scientific method.

Interestingly enough, I've found that being that person that people don't want to be is wholly compatible with my empathy. I would never harm another person, but I've found they often are offended by my actions, though they aren't affected in any way (and I make damn sure of that).

One of my more interesting goals in life is to be a famous, strung-out, drug-addicted, anorexic musician. On first glance, this looks like an awful thing to strive for. But I find it hilarious, glamorous, and just wrong enough that it has the capability to make people think.

I've done a lot of drugs in my life, and some of them have taught me incredible things about the nature of life. The first being that we are animals. Our existence on this earth is simply a result of the laws of physics, working on the tiniest processes of life so that evolution can occur. Because of this, right and wrong can't possibly exist concretely. They are a concept we've made up, as humans trying to make sense of the world. The second is that the way we think is somewhat mechanical, but also imprecise. We make associations the exact same way all of the animals do, we just make more of them, and we're able to do it faster. Knowing that our brains work mechanically, rather than spiritually, has taught me that we can associate ANYTHING with ANYTHING ELSE.

So anything can be good, and anything can be bad. We can associate fish tacos with the color purple, if we so choose. Stronger associations, like mother, father, spouse and friend, can be programmed as well. Hypnosis is a very good demonstration of this fact.

You have a very defined sense of right and wrong. Certain things are absolutely good for you, and certain things are absolutely bad. Have you ever thought about what you could be missing on the bad side? Perhaps you think drugs are bad. You have plenty of reasons for it. Overdosing can be deadly. Even if one avoids the overdose, there are still countless negative physical effects that are well worth avoiding. But you'll never experience the altered state of mind that drugs will give you. You'll never explore your own mental processes in the unique way drugs will allow you to. Perhaps there are lessons you will never learn, because you stayed away from drugs, because you are "good" and they are "bad".

Drugs are not the only example. This could apply to social interactions, culture, politics, emotions, thought processes, anything at all.

Maybe, if you remembered, just for a second, that right and wrong are made-up concepts, you could explore an entire side of yourself, society, and human nature that you could never access before. Maybe, if you could tell yourself, just once, that our humanity is not at all connected to a higher "good", you could stop being afraid of the darker side of things, and give yourself room to explore.

Maybe doing everything that's "bad" for you could be the best thing that ever happened to you.

It's worth a shot, trust me.

/<3

[truant]

A wonderful post, Karanime.

People are terribly bound by their concepts. There's nothing wrong with the mind or thought or thinking unless you start thinking your thinking is more than just a convenient form of shorthand. And many people attach strong emotional responses to labels that but vaguely represent the Truth of the matter. Nothing is good or bad, of course, but thinking makes it so. Still, a "famous, strung-out, drug-addicted, anorexic musician" seems like a horrible cliche to me, but I'm a lot older than you are. I'm sure you'll put an original spin on it.

As I like to say: "You can't pitch a tent on a map and say you're camping." Life doesn't work that way, but everyone seems to want to try it. A whole lot of spiritual tourists 'round these parts. But everyone has to start somewhere.

I always enjoy your posts. Keep being a deviant.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by truant

Still, a "famous, strung-out, drug-addicted, anorexic musician" seems like a horrible cliche to me, but I'm a lot older than you are. I'm sure you'll put an original spin on it.

I don't think I can avoid being original with it, because I'm deliberately trying to do it. Most people end up in that situation by accident. :P

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by truant

I always enjoy your posts. Keep being a deviant.

Snaps, I didn't catch that first time reading it. Thank you.

/<3

[elucidate]

Doubt is a really good thing to have a certain amount of. If you are lacking in doubt then it's too easy to fall into delusional thinking and become a self-important dick who thinks they are right about everything.

Drugs are good for all the reasons you outlined...and they're fun...bonus. You do need to know your limits though, and past a certain point you come to realize you can progress much more without them...at least, that is how it was for me. I still miss them sometimes though, and it's always there if I want to dive in again.

Amy Winehouse wannabe? I think you can do better than that!

It's good to be evil though(;

[taylor]

Interesting perspective Karanime.

Here's how I roughly define what's good or evil.

Good: what my heart wants.
Evil: what my heart doesn't want.

Being a drug addict is a desire that I could see coming from a part of me that wants to self-destruct, not my heart though. That's true for many of the thing's people say are evil. There are desires within present to varying degrees from my darker "id" instincts. Trust me, even though your conscious ego is saying you don't have it in you to be cruel to others, you definitely do. You have the same human parts as Himmler and Jeffrey Dahmer, they just aren't active. Serial killers aren't actually monsters after all, they're human beings.

I feel we all have the potential to desire what anyone else desires, to fall or rise as high as we choose, but where's it coming from within you? I've explored the dark side enough to know it's not a place I want to end up. I've also explored the lighter side enough to know it's a great place to end up. This isn't coming from a naive good/evil distinction I learned from society, it's coming from an understanding of the real consequences of our choices. You don't want to live as a drug addicted anorexic despite how glamorous you're imagining it as, though you may have to go there to realize you don't like it from the inside. It also might have many lessons you couldn't learn another way. It's all a part of the process, our somewhat random walk towards what we really want.

I wouldn't call you evil though. We're all doing the best we know at the time.

[James81]

"If only I could get everybody else in the world to see how wrong they are."

[Karanime]

taylor, one of the best things about deliberately doing things you know are bad for you (which includes self-destructing, going to the dark side, etc.) is that you have total control over the situation. If you attempt to avoid anything at all, that means you can slip into it by accident, and suddenly you don't have control over the situation.

When you do it on purpose, you own it, and it's impossible to be afraid of it anymore.

/<3

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Karanime

taylor, one of the best things about deliberately doing things you know are bad for you (which includes self-destructing, going to the dark side, etc.) is that you have total control over the situation. If you attempt to avoid anything at all, that means you can slip into it by accident, and suddenly you don't have control over the situation.

When you do it on purpose, you own it, and it's impossible to be afraid of it anymore.

/<3

Ah, but that's not the nature of the beast--at least when we're talking about anorexia and drug addiction. Sure, you can be an under-eating drug user and still be in control, but addiction and such disease are defined by that not being the case. When you say you want to be an anorexic, drug addicted musician, I have a feeling what you really want is a persona, a story, a drama, and the emotional fulfillment that comes with that kind of self-absorbed darkness (I say those terms without judgment, I understand that drive). Being in control is separate from behaviors--and funny enough, it's often something that motivates anorexics: to have control over their body.

[Mariana Trench]

And by the way, I understand if you don't want to open here or anything, or if I'm just plain wrong, but the drive toward self-absorbed darkness (in the self-destructive sense) is often motivated by unvalidated pain. Especially pain a person won't let themselves validate. So they turn the unvalidated pain into something that can be seen and validated, if only within their own heads.

/projection

[Merr]

This post seems to me to be a disguised effort to suggest that drugs are good instead of bad rather than anything else. I also am wondering if you're equating bad as the same as evil or if you see them as two different things?

As for mind-altered states.. I have some idea via alcohol what they would do *to* me rather than for me and I find that meditation or having a shower does a lot more for my thought process and creativity.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I've done a lot of drugs in my life, and some of them have taught me incredible things about the nature of life. The first being that we are animals. Our existence on this earth is simply a result of the laws of physics, working on the tiniest processes of life so that evolution can occur. Because of this, right and wrong can't possibly exist concretely.

So Richard Dawkins just does a lot of acid.

For what it's worth, unless you're willing to go with the Divine Command Theory (which raises more, ridiculous, and unanswerable questions), then you pretty much have to come to this conclusion about ethics if you're being intellectually honest. From there it's Social Contract--which undeniably exist in the world we live (and I'm glad it does).

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Karanime

taylor, one of the best things about deliberately doing things you know are bad for you (which includes self-destructing, going to the dark side, etc.) is that you have total control over the situation. If you attempt to avoid anything at all, that means you can slip into it by accident, and suddenly you don't have control over the situation.

When you do it on purpose, you own it, and it's impossible to be afraid of it anymore.

/<3

That doesn't make sense to me Karanime.

I'm not going to slip into being an anorexic drug addicted rock star by accident, because I'm not going to make anything close to those choices. If I don't want something, and then I choose it consciously, that may take care of my resistance to it, but I've also let this negative thing dictate what choices I'm making in life.

The first step at Narcotics Anonymous is admitting that you aren't in control of your addiction. That's the nature of this particular beast.

Like I said though sometimes going in downward spiral can teach you certain life lessons. The next few steps is learning how to turn your life over to a Higher Power.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Ah, but that's not the nature of the beast--at least when we're talking about anorexia and drug addiction. Sure, you can be an under-eating drug user and still be in control, but addiction and such disease are defined by that not being the case. When you say you want to be an anorexic, drug addicted musician, I have a feeling what you really want is a persona, a story, a drama, and the emotional fulfillment that comes with that kind of self-absorbed darkness (I say those terms without judgment, I understand that drive). Being in control is separate from behaviors--and funny enough, it's often something that motivates anorexics: to have control over their body.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here. Obviously real anorexia and drug addiction are characterized by a lack of control. If I remain in control, I can never truly be either of these things. But I do want the persona, the story, and so on and so forth.

Thanks for this post.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

And by the way, I understand if you don't want to open here or anything, or if I'm just plain wrong, but the drive toward self-absorbed darkness (in the self-destructive sense) is often motivated by unvalidated pain. Especially pain a person won't let themselves validate. So they turn the unvalidated pain into something that can be seen and validated, if only within their own heads.

/projection

This sounds really interesting, but I don't quite understand. Please elaborate. What is unvalidated pain, and what would stop a person from validating their own pain?

/<3

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I think you really hit the nail on the head here. Obviously real anorexia and drug addiction are characterized by a lack of control. If I remain in control, I can never truly be either of these things. But I do want the persona, the story, and so on and so forth.

Thanks for this post.

/<3

You're very welcome.

Originally Posted by Karanime

This sounds really interesting, but I don't quite understand. Please elaborate. What is unvalidated pain, and what would stop a person from validating their own pain?

/<3

Unvalidated pain in the sense I'm using it here is pain felt--but that we don't think we "should" feel (perhaps we internalized a belief that we weren't allowed, perhaps it's not consistent with our self-image, etc), so it's suppressed or denied. Well, it's going to come out some way--and because we're denying the real origin for whatever reason it will be channeled into something else in our head. So instead of "I feel this pain because my parents trained me to live in fear" it might be "I feel this pain because I'm powerless to my eating disorder, drug addiction, cutting, etc". Now these things could in themselves have a separate or at least more complex origin, but they are given all the more pull--and appeal, in fact--because they provide an outlet and contextualization for the unvalidated pain.

By the way, I don't think this is an "official" psychological phenomenon (or at least I don't know about it) these are just ideas I've gathered from observing myself and others.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Merr

This post seems to me to be a disguised effort to suggest that drugs are good instead of bad rather than anything else. I also am wondering if you're equating bad as the same as evil or if you see them as two different things?

I used a lot of drug examples because it's something I am very familiar with, and something that a lot of people here seem to think is bad, scary, evil, whatever. The other big thing would be unusual relationships, but since Steve covered polyamory, the people here are more accepting of that. Besides, I think I'm mostly past that stage in my life.

As for mind-altered states.. I have some idea via alcohol what they would do *to* me rather than for me and I find that meditation or having a shower does a lot more for my thought process and creativity.

Oof, I really hate alcohol. I generally just avoid it unless I'm in a situation where having a drink or two would benefit me. Alcohol is more of a body drug, and it's useless for introspection. Something with a stronger mental effect would be much better. Marijuana is relatively easy to get a hold of, and just a couple powerful experiences were all it took to completely transform my worldview. I don't smoke it regularly.

I've also had experiences with ecstasy, but if you do this, have someone in the room that you're close to and you trust, because you're going to want to talk about everything that's going on in your head. You'll learn things about how you work that you didn't even know were there. It's absolutely excellent for people who aren't particularly skilled at introspection. It's pretty tough to find though, unless you're a few links away from someone who makes it (a friend of a friend of a friend).

Dextromethorphan could work too (cough medicine), but it's generally difficult to find a pure DXM (or DM) product, and it can be tough to keep the medicine down. But the euphoric effects are useful, and the overactive imagination bordering on hallucination (the euphoria helps prevent bad trips) allows you to explore different environments in your mind. Near the end of the trip is where the real introspection comes in. It seems to make your priorities clearer to you, so this would be a good time to get out a pen and paper, or a text file to write out your thoughts.

With any drug, make sure you're getting it from someone you absolutely trust. I've heard horror stories about marijuana being laced with PCP or crack, and neither of those seem like pleasant experiences. Ecstasy pills often contain methamphetamine, so keep that in mind. DXM is the easiest to get, but the most difficult to dose, so make absolutely sure you know what does is appropriate for your body weight before you take it. There are tons of resources on the internet for this.

And I'm not really encouraging you to do this, I'm just giving you information in case you do decide to.

I guess that concludes my drug essay. Be safe, kids!

/<3

[Mariana Trench]

And another aside, I think there's already an artist out there who's cultivated a persona of glamor and disorder and is actively using it to make a point: Lady Gaga. The funny thing is, the people I've talked to who are actually head over heels for her don't get it at all. I'm just overthinking it. That has to be part of the joke.

Her music isn't the real art. It's the public persona that's one big show.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Unvalidated pain in the sense I'm using it here is pain felt--but that we don't think we "should" feel (perhaps we internalized a belief that we weren't allowed, perhaps it's not consistent with our self-image, etc), so it's suppressed or denied. Well, it's going to come out some way--and because we're denying the real origin for whatever reason it will be channeled into something else in our head. So instead of "I feel this pain because my parents trained me to live in fear" it might be "I feel this pain because I'm powerless to my eating disorder, drug addiction, cutting, etc". Now these things could in themselves have a separate or at least more complex origin, but they are given all the more pull--and appeal, in fact--because they provide an outlet and contextualization for the unvalidated pain.

By the way, I don't think this is an "official" psychological phenomenon (or at least I don't know about it) these are just ideas I've gathered from observing myself and others.

I actually think that's a very good idea. And I would say that it's valid for me, but with a twist. I know that my parents trained me to be fearful of my surroundings. They've caused me a lot of pain, and often I feel that someone (other than me) should be angry at them for doing this. But I don't really get sympathy. Instead I'm told to suck it up and deal with it, which is wonderful advice, but it makes me feel as if my pain isn't real or important.

So, because I'm conscious of the fact that my pain is real and valid, but I don't get the validation from other people that I feel I deserve, I intentionally build a persona of pain that people can be sympathetic towards. I'm not in a real downward spiral, 'cause I have my own validation, but I'm showing one to the outside world, because I don't yet have validation from them.

Does that match the theory you've come up with, or have I misunderstood?

/<3

[elucidate]

Yes, I had a hit of a bong once at a party that I'm pretty sure was laced with something funny like that because me and my girlfriend walked from that house all the way to my house, which was almost 50kms away, and we did it in less than two hours, we just couldn't stop power walking

We got home at exactly my curfew time though, so that was good.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

And another aside, I think there's already an artist out there who's cultivated a persona of glamor and disorder and is actively using it to make a point: Lady Gaga. The funny thing is, the people I've talked to who are actually head over heels for her don't get it at all. I'm just overthinking it. That has to be part of the joke.

Her music isn't the real art. It's the public persona that's one big show.

Lady Gaga projects an air of confidence, though. I love the point she's making about fame and fashion, but it's a clean-cut difference from the point I want to make. She's being ridiculous and gathering fans because she wants to show us how ridiculous being famous is. I don't want to make a point about fame, I want to use fame to make a point about human nature. Or several points.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes, I had a hit of a bong once at a party that I'm pretty sure was laced with something funny like that because me and my girlfriend walked from that house all the way to my house, which was almost 50kms away, and we did it in less than two hours, we just couldn't stop power walking

We got home at exactly my curfew time though, so that was good.

Lol, that could have been anything, though. I've done something similar on pot just because it was fun. It's a stimulant on its own anyway, so it's entirely possible it wasn't laced.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by taylor

That doesn't make sense to me Karanime.

I'm not going to slip into being an anorexic drug addicted rock star by accident, because I'm not going to make anything close to those choices. If I don't want something, and then I choose it consciously, that may take care of my resistance to it, but I've also let this negative thing dictate what choices I'm making in life.

The first step at Narcotics Anonymous is admitting that you aren't in control of your addiction. That's the nature of this particular beast.

Like I said though sometimes going in downward spiral can teach you certain life lessons. The next few steps is learning how to turn your life over to a Higher Power.

Well, I wasn't trying to say that my particular path was the only bad one. You could have other things in your life that you perceive as negative that you want to avoid, and that can really handicap you. I'm not sure you really understand the concept, because you're still seeing the negative as a negative instead of a hidden positive, buried under years of social conditioning.

Nothing can dictate the choices you make in your life. I'm not saying fighting addiction is easy. I am a smoker and I know what cravings and urges feel like, and it can be scary. But I'm also aware that I've made the choice to smoke, and so I'm going to own it. I am a smoker and I'm damn proud of it, even if it scares me. So I don't fight it, because I don't feel the need to. I'm sure that one day, in the middle of my addiction, I just won't be feeling the persona of a smoker anymore, and at that point, I'll put it down and push through the cravings, because it just won't be me anymore.

Really, addiction wasn't supposed to be the point of this post. The idea that you can take a negative and turn it into a positive, and control it and direct it the way YOU want to go, was supposed to be the point of this post.

Is your belief in a definite positive/negative related to your belief in a Higher Power? If so, I especially recommend a little bit of experimentation for you. This Higher Power loves you, and will protect you from any true negatives, and you are free to explore the human negatives, whenever you're ready to take that step.

/<3

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I actually think that's a very good idea. And I would say that it's valid for me, but with a twist. I know that my parents trained me to be fearful of my surroundings. They've caused me a lot of pain, and often I feel that someone (other than me) should be angry at them for doing this. But I don't really get sympathy. Instead I'm told to suck it up and deal with it, which is wonderful advice, but it makes me feel as if my pain isn't real or important.

So, because I'm conscious of the fact that my pain is real and valid, but I don't get the validation from other people that I feel I deserve, I intentionally build a persona of pain that people can be sympathetic towards. I'm not in a real downward spiral, 'cause I have my own validation, but I'm showing one to the outside world, because I don't yet have validation from them.

Does that match the theory you've come up with, or have I misunderstood?

/<3

It does match up with the theory--but like you said, with a slight twist from how I described. It seems to be the same fundamental process, just aimed at a different audience. I would expect most people aim it at both themselves and others, but an individual may only need validation in one area. (I craved validation from myself more than anyone, but I did feel free or qualified to give it.)

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Lady Gaga projects an air of confidence, though. I love the point she's making about fame and fashion, but it's a clean-cut difference from the point I want to make. She's being ridiculous and gathering fans because she wants to show us how ridiculous being famous is. I don't want to make a point about fame, I want to use fame to make a point about human nature. Or several points.

/<3

Gotcha

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Lol, that could have been anything, though. I've done something similar on pot just because it was fun. It's a stimulant on its own anyway, so it's entirely possible it wasn't laced.

/<3

Yeeeeah...not like this. Trust me. We didn't do it for fun, we just couldn't stop walking!

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Well, I wasn't trying to say that my particular path was the only bad one. You could have other things in your life that you perceive as negative that you want to avoid, and that can really handicap you. I'm not sure you really understand the concept, because you're still seeing the negative as a negative instead of a hidden positive, buried under years of social conditioning.

I thought I said explicitly my own personal definitions of good or evil, and implied I'm not relying on naive societal moral categories, but on actual consequences for our choices. Don't want to make my original post out as more important than it is, but maybe it could use another read.

Originally Posted by Karanime

Nothing can dictate the choices you make in your life. I'm not saying fighting addiction is easy. I am a smoker and I know what cravings and urges feel like, and it can be scary. But I'm also aware that I've made the choice to smoke, and so I'm going to own it. I am a smoker and I'm damn proud of it, even if it scares me. So I don't fight it, because I don't feel the need to. I'm sure that one day, in the middle of my addiction, I just won't be feeling the persona of a smoker anymore, and at that point, I'll put it down and push through the cravings, because it just won't be me anymore.

Really, addiction wasn't supposed to be the point of this post. The idea that you can take a negative and turn it into a positive, and control it and direct it the way YOU want to go, was supposed to be the point of this post.

That's one thing I don't understand about this and maybe you can explain. I don't see how choosing something "bad" gives you control over it. It just means instead of resisting it consciously, you're heading straight for it. I don't see what that has to do with control. It sounds almost like you don't enjoy resisting the "negative", so you're just giving up, and this could be all a big rationalization for irrational behavior.

Originally Posted by Karanime

Is your belief in a definite positive/negative related to your belief in a Higher Power? If so, I especially recommend a little bit of experimentation for you.

I've done experimentation on the dark side as I said. I figured out it's not somewhere I want to end up. Maybe I didn't communicate as clearly as I could have or maybe you just skimmed it. I don't believe in absolute moral categories, only consequences of choices, and I even pointed out the positive in seemingly negative situations. I'm not judging your choices as bad or good, just saying they probably are coming from your "id" and will have certain objective consequences for your life.

For example drug addiction has certain undeniable health effects, whether or not it's "good" or "evil". Moving towards that intentionally sounds like a part of you wants to destroy itself. This is very common, within all of us, and talked about endlessly in psychology. You'll have to look at what part of you is really running the show on this decision.

It all sounds like a very bad idea to me, but not "evil". Like how someone who plays haphazardly with dynamite isn't bad, just making a poor life choice.

On a practical note you might try drugs that aren't addictive but will give you very wild and interesting experiences to add to your persona while staying healthy. Intense psychedelics seem like a good choice if you must. DMT, Ayahuasca (very illegal), Salvia (which is legal in NV).

[taylor]

Oh, btw Karanime, actually don't bother responding to me. I won't have the time to get back to you now. Good luck to you though whatever you decide.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Merr

This post seems to me to be a disguised effort to suggest that drugs are good instead of bad rather than anything else. I also am wondering if you're equating bad as the same as evil or if you see them as two different things?

As for mind-altered states.. I have some idea via alcohol what they would do *to* me rather than for me and I find that meditation or having a shower does a lot more for my thought process and creativity.

It's interesting to hear people talk about mind-expansion through drug use. One of my favorite comedians, Joe Rogan, talks about it a little bit in his act. And there's a book that I'd love to read (that Rogan recommends) called "Food of the Gods" by Terrance McKenna. It's a book that makes a case for how we as humans evolved through the natural "drugs." (Like wild mushrooms that would cause hallucinations)

I think the idea sounds pretty cool (and I think the book sounds fascinating).

But, I've managed to get to some pretty crazy states WITHOUT drugs, and I've thought up some really out-there stuff without drugs. All the drugs I've ever done has done for me has made me laugh like a hyena.

I tend to see the evolution of thought and the expansion of the mind as removing the mental blocks we have in place that keep us from thinking beyond our boundaries.

Like, playing devil's advocate with all the stuff we are taught to be HARDKORE FACT. One example is this: Before the invention of film/TV, how on earth can you believe anything that was written in a history book? How much of what we "know" is actually TRUE? And how much of it is just **** made up? Like people accuse christians/religious people all the time for reading a book of fairy tales. But how can you know that the History books that we (pretended to) read in school are accurate fact?

It's questions and thought processes like that that lead me to new insights quite a bit. I can envision myself smoking pot again (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't do it for "mind expansion," because it's not something you *need* to expand your mind. You can reach those states without drugs, and, actually, because you don't use drugs to get to those states, the insights you glean are actually much sweeter because you are more conscious when doing it.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by James81

It's interesting to hear people talk about mind-expansion through drug use. One of my favorite comedians, Joe Rogan, talks about it a little bit in his act. And there's a book that I'd love to read (that Rogan recommends) called "Food of the Gods" by Terrance McKenna. It's a book that makes a case for how we as humans evolved through the natural "drugs." (Like wild mushrooms that would cause hallucinations)

I think the idea sounds pretty cool (and I think the book sounds fascinating).

But, I've managed to get to some pretty crazy states WITHOUT drugs, and I've thought up some really out-there stuff without drugs. All the drugs I've ever done has done for me has made me laugh like a hyena.

I tend to see the evolution of thought and the expansion of the mind as removing the mental blocks we have in place that keep us from thinking beyond our boundaries.

Like, playing devil's advocate with all the stuff we are taught to be HARDKORE FACT. One example is this: Before the invention of film/TV, how on earth can you believe anything that was written in a history book? How much of what we "know" is actually TRUE? And how much of it is just **** made up? Like people accuse christians/religious people all the time for reading a book of fairy tales. But how can you know that the History books that we (pretended to) read in school are accurate fact?

It's questions and thought processes like that that lead me to new insights quite a bit. I can envision myself smoking pot again (maybe), but I certainly wouldn't do it for "mind expansion," because it's not something you *need* to expand your mind. You can reach those states without drugs, and, actually, because you don't use drugs to get to those states, the insights you glean are actually much sweeter because you are more conscious when doing it.

I haven't done much in the line of drugs, but this is something I've suspected too. I come to a lot of the insights people come to on drugs just by taking my thought processes to weird places. (Sometimes it just overwhelmingly and randomly strikes me just how *weird* being able to think or perceive in anyway is; or how the fact that my neighboor walked across the lawn and I saw it is a miracle because of how many things had to come together from that moment, and therefore all of life is a miracle, and therefor miracle is a moot concept...oh **** it it's just a construction of our minds that can serve a labeling purpose, etc, etc...)

Psychedelics still sound fascinating, though.