Can a Darkworker be nice?

[cheesedip1]

Is there such a thing as a Lightworker who helps others but only to help him/herself?

That would mean they are a Darkworker, right?

Can a darkworker choose to help others just for selfish gain and still be a darkworker?

Also, just because you're a darkworker does that mean you WILL use manipulation and fear-based strategies with others most of the time?

[mrthejazz]

Originally Posted by cheesedip1

Is there such a thing as a Lightworker who helps others but only to help him/herself?

That would mean they are a Darkworker, right?

Can a darkworker choose to help others just for selfish gain and still be a darkworker?

Also, just because you're a darkworker does that mean you WILL use manipulation and fear-based strategies with others most of the time?

The best darkworkers, I imagine, won't admit that they are darkworkers. Nobody knows them for what they are until it's too late. Deception is the principle tool of a darkworker, and the best deceptions appear the most honest.

A fear strategy may be useful, but it also creates enemies. Most powerful people mix fear with other tactics. This is all, of course my own blatant opinion.

[Dulma]

Hmm. I'm a bit lost. I thought the point was that lightworkers and darkworkers can't necessarily be categorized into "good" and "bad" or "nice" and "mean" but that their difference lies in the fact that the former is devoted to others and the latter is devoted to himself or herself. You can be devoted to uplifting your own awareness and bringing joy into your life without necessarily being manipulative or harmful towards others.

[nietsdoen]

The term darkworker always makes me extremely uncomfortable. It has quite a negative connotation. A darkworker is simply someone who lives their lives to help themselves, and this can be positive or negative. Think of someone who devotes all of their free time to overcoming bad habits, gaining knowledge, finding personal fulfillment, and becoming more productive. That person is a darkworker. You can also imagine someone who manipulates men to have sex with her, who steals money, who puts others down to make herself feel good, etc.

[VinceG]

Has anyone ever met a darkworker? I've certainly seen people who were interested in the darker sides of human nature, people who've identified that way, but nobody who's actually taken the stance of "everybody here just exists solely to be used by me for my own gain," and really did things that way.

[nietsdoen]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Has anyone ever met a darkworker? I've certainly seen people who were interested in the darker sides of human nature, people who've identified that way, but nobody who's actually taken the stance of "everybody here just exists solely to be used by me for my own gain," and really did things that way.

Hitler?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

Hitler?

Hitler worked for greater Germany.

[nietsdoen]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Hitler worked for greater Germany.

IF that was his true motive.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Has anyone ever met a darkworker? I've certainly seen people who were interested in the darker sides of human nature, people who've identified that way, but nobody who's actually taken the stance of "everybody here just exists solely to be used by me for my own gain," and really did things that way.

Several people on this forum have publicly self-identified as darkworkers. I can't actually give you any names off the top of my head, but a search through this folder would turn up a few threads.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

IF that was his true motive.

It's a well-kept secret in historical circles that dictators can't rule without the enthusiasm of the people they're ruling. The forces that put Hitler into power were far greater than Hitler himself.

[nietsdoen]

Originally Posted by VinceG

It's a well-kept secret in historical circles that dictators can't rule without the enthusiasm of the people they're ruling. The forces that put Hitler into power were far greater than Hitler himself.

Naturally, but that doesn't mean he was doing it for them. He manipulated the German public so his own selfish plans could carry out.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Several people on this forum have publicly self-identified as darkworkers. I can't actually give you any names off the top of my head, but a search through this folder would turn up a few threads.

Cado has. I remain unconvinced that he's a darkworker.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

Naturally, but that doesn't mean he was doing it for them. He manipulated the German public so his own selfish plans could carry out.

You missed the point. It was exactly the opposite. The German public manipulated Hitler.

[nietsdoen]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You missed the point. It was exactly the opposite. The German public manipulated Hitler.

If they did, it was indirect and unconscious, and in my opinion, that doesn't qualify as an actual motive.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

If they did, it was indirect and unconscious, and in my opinion, that doesn't qualify as an actual motive.

In these sorts of situations, personal motive plays little role. An entire people gets swept up in the idea of greatness. The leaders have to surf that public feeling, that's their job. If they don't, they run the risk of getting deposed or worse, assassinated.

The real tragedy of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is that nobody's really learned from them. People blame the leader, without looking at the culture that created him.

[nietsdoen]

Originally Posted by VinceG

In these sorts of situations, personal motive plays little role. An entire people gets swept up in the idea of greatness. The leaders have to surf that public feeling, that's their job. If they don't, they run the risk of getting deposed or worse, assassinated.

The real tragedy of Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia is that nobody's really learned from them. People blame the leader, without looking at the culture that created him.

Yes, it was the culture that created him. However, if we look at all people from that perspective (and I do appreciate that perspective), then the whole concept of lightworker and darkworker goes out the window, which is perhaps your point, but not that relevant in a discussion of the traits of darkworkers.

Really, from this argument, personal motive plays little to no role in anything, because everything we do results from larger society.

[jellybeanpimp]

I wasn't around in Nazi occupied Germany, obviously, but I do remember reading something along the lines of Jews being very despised by many Germans at the time Hitler rose to power.

It still took one messed up individual to head the operation that he headed.

If by dark you mean evil, you can't be inherently evil and rise to the top in any field, company, or corporation. You simply would not be allowed to act out all of your evil impulses. And I think it's really counter-productive to say that succesful people are dark or that being dark would help you rise to the top of anything at all. If you want to be a part of the disease go ahead and be apart of the disease, but ultimately the larger collective will spit you out. And don't diseased cells ultimately kill the same body they inhabit, thereby killing themselves?

Eh. No point to me. And darkworker definitely does have an evil sound to it.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

Yes, it was the culture that created him. However, if we look at all people from that perspective (and I do appreciate that perspective), then the whole concept of lightworker and darkworker goes out the window, which is perhaps your point, but not that relevant in a discussion of the traits of darkworkers.

Really, from this argument, personal motive plays little to no role in anything, because everything we do results from larger society.

Hitler's useless in a discussion concerning darkworkers because nobody can choose to be Hitler. There are a very specific set of forces that make the fascist dictator a very rare breed.

Best just to pick another example. The only darkworkers I'm aware of exist in movies. Perhaps drug kingpins qualify. Maybe someone like Bernie Madoff. Con artists. Petty thieves. Hard to think of them as darkworkers, though. The concept of light working goes far beyond "just doing good things." It means working with light energy in a specific way for the benefit of all.

Unless you wanted the concept of darkworker to just mean "a bad dude." then a certain esoteric element as well as a premeditation would need to apply. Identifying with evil turns out to be much rarer than we think. Evil tends to be far more powerful in the minds of the good than its actual impact on events.

[jellybeanpimp]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Hitler's useless in a discussion concerning darkworkers because nobody can choose to be Hitler. There are a very specific set of forces that make the fascist dictator a very rare breed.

Best just to pick another example. The only darkworkers I'm aware of exist in movies. Perhaps drug kingpins qualify. Maybe someone like Bernie Madoff. Con artists. Petty thieves. Hard to think of them as darkworkers, though. The concept of light working goes far beyond "just doing good things." It means working with light energy in a specific way for the benefit of all.

Unless you wanted the concept of darkworker to just mean "a bad dude." then a certain esoteric element as well as a premeditation would need to apply. Identifying with evil turns out to be much rarer than we think. Evil tends to be far more powerful in the minds of the good than its actual impact on events.

Very true. Darkworker means you are doing evil in my book, and evil means actions that ultimately hurt/take away from others. I don't see how anyone can say working on yourself is dark work, or even how just thinking about yourself is "dark" work.

And there's no way to get by without contributing anything good to the world at all. No matter who you are, you will ultimately provide something of value to this world. Even if you are just washing dishes, that is still a service. Even if you are born independently wealthy, most people feel the need to create something of value, even if it is just a silly little shoe line with their born famous name on it. Even if you live an extremely evil life and go to jail, or get shot in a drug deal gone wrong, you will serve the greater good of deterring many others from such a poorly chosen path, especially once they see the end result of it.

[elucidate]

Why do you associate the word "dark" with "evil"?

I think this is the major misunderstanding that most people get caught up in. Dark does not equal evil, it's just that it has a bad rap. The color (even though it's not really a color) Black has always been associated with evil in mainstream culture, yet without the dark blackness of night we wouldn't be able to see the light from stars.

It's worthwhile reflecting on where your ideas about these things stem from.

To me, we cannot become whole individuals without working on our shadow aspects, which is known as our "dark side". These are the aspects of us which most people are raised to revile and shun and disown, and which can have detrimental consequences unless they are embraced and integrated into every human.

Originally Posted by jellybeanpimp

Very true. Darkworker means you are doing evil in my book, and evil means actions that ultimately hurt/take away from others. I don't see how anyone can say working on yourself is dark work, or even how just thinking about yourself is "dark" work.

And there's no way to get by without contributing anything good to the world at all. No matter who you are, you will ultimately provide something of value to this world. Even if you are just washing dishes, that is still a service. Even if you are born independently wealthy, most people feel the need to create something of value, even if it is just a silly little shoe line with their born famous name on it. Even if you live an extremely evil life and go to jail, or get shot in a drug deal gone wrong, you will serve the greater good of deterring many others from such a poorly chosen path, especially once they see the end result of it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by VinceG

You missed the point. It was exactly the opposite. The German public manipulated Hitler.

How did they do that exactly?

From where I stand Hitler saw the opportunity to take advantage of the state of desperation the people of Germany were in when he first rose to power. He saw that they needed a charismatic leader to give them hope, and using the power of suggestion, as well as certain symbols along with well thought out colors, brainwashed them into going along with his 'vision'.
He then set about putting the fear of death into all his soldiers so they would do whatever he commanded. It wasn't just the jews who were scared shitless of Hitler and his cronies, it was the Germans as well.

[Cado]

The notion most people have of darkworking is cartoonish villainy. That's about as far from the truth as you're going to get and it's the kind of thing that lets corrupt darkworkers get away with what they do. You've got no chance against an enemy you don't understand.

The whole of the left hand path can be described thus: do as thou wilt. There is no mandate to be compassionate, or to be nice as you've put it here, but there's nothing which says you can't be either. It baffles me how people think that saying, "I'm not here to serve others" is the same thing as saying, "I'm committed to being an absolute dick."

It's not about what you do, it's about why you do it-and in some cases how.

[Bradshaw]

It's not so black and white.

Maybe somewhere, there's a darkworker who is so commited to have as many good things and advantages in life as possible that he will, because of his knowledge of the spiritual realm, generate massive amounts of positive karma for himself by helping an incredible amount of people.

That's why they say that both paths in the polarization game lead to the same place. If one person truly helps himself to the max, then he must also help others at some point. A truly intelligent darkworker will eventually use the laws of the universe to his advantage once he can understand them.

A lightworker, on the other hand, will help others even if he hasn't fully integrated the universal laws that say that everything you put out will come back to you. He does so because he knows he is part of the whole.

A truly intelligent, powerful and strong darkworker will usually not screw with people or outright blast people to death because he understands that it will come back to him. He may do those things if he has yet to understand and integrate certain principles, though.

But as you can see, both paths end up in the same place.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

A truly intelligent, powerful and strong darkworker will usually not screw with people or outright blast people to death because he understands that it will come back to him. He may do those things if he has yet to understand and integrate certain principles, though.

Or said darkworker might believe karma is bunk but they want the world they live in-their world-to be the kind of place where they can find others on their level, even if they have to cultivate them, where the worthy can be raised from the dust (even if they fall) and eventually rise to the top.

Darkworkers can know compassion for its own sake, but it's still of a different variety than you'd find in lightworkers. It's very hard to explain the difference because I don't know that there are words for it. "I'm doing this for myself but the fact that you're happy multiplies my joy." It's one of those things that blurs the line within healthy polarization.

Darkworkers use destruction and entropy, make no mistake. That's our whole shtick. The thing is, destruction isn't bad. The fields need to be razed before new crops grow. In the spiritual sense destruction is the same thing as transmutation because nothing is ever truly lost, and you find metaphors for this all throughout nature-metaphors which encapsulate both light and dark as well as the result of their moving together. The sperm enters the egg wherein both forms break down-they're destroyed-and birth new life. That sort of thing.

So back to the subject at hand, can darkworkers be callous bastards that destroy everything in their path? "Do as thou wilt." Can they be compassionate and charitable? "Do as thou wilt." Tap into your True Will and follow it.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Cado

The notion most people have of darkworking is cartoonish villainy.

Until someone can explain to me how dark working differs from enlightened self-interest with a side of hedonism, I'm going to go on believing it doesn't exist.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by elucidate

How did they do that exactly?

From where I stand Hitler saw the opportunity to take advantage of the state of desperation the people of Germany were in when he first rose to power. He saw that they needed a charismatic leader to give them hope, and using the power of suggestion, as well as certain symbols along with well thought out colors, brainwashed them into going along with his 'vision'.
He then set about putting the fear of death into all his soldiers so they would do whatever he commanded. It wasn't just the jews who were scared shitless of Hitler and his cronies, it was the Germans as well.

You cannot "brainwash" an entire people. Brainwashing just one person requires an immense amount of effort. That Hitler was able to use parades, symbolism, and fiery speeches to whip the Germans up into a frenzy means that that's exactly what the Germans wanted at the time.

[Cado]

For the curious, here's two discussions that've been had on the topic as well as a whole site that delves into the darker polarity:

The Last Word on Polarity
Polarity Redux
The Crimson Curtain

[jellybeanpimp]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Why do you associate the word "dark" with "evil"?

I think this is the major misunderstanding that most people get caught up in. Dark does not equal evil, it's just that it has a bad rap. The color (even though it's not really a color) Black has always been associated with evil in mainstream culture, yet without the dark blackness of night we wouldn't be able to see the light from stars.

It's worthwhile reflecting on where your ideas about these things stem from.

To me, we cannot become whole individuals without working on our shadow aspects, which is known as our "dark side". These are the aspects of us which most people are raised to revile and shun and disown, and which can have detrimental consequences unless they are embraced and integrated into every human.

I think it's a reflex to associate a term such as darkworker with qualities someone should shy away from rather than embrace. The night time is merely the absence of the sun. Darkness has no natural source of it's own. It only exists in areas where light, which does have a natural source, is not shining. What celestial body gives off darkness?

When it comes to shadow aspects of ourselves, I guess it really depends on the shadow aspect. There are definitely some things that people should shy away from or seek treatment for that fall under the shadow aspect category, lest they hurt someone else, hurt themselves, or just end up in a bad situation. Most, if not all, shadow aspects really aren't going to serve any higher interests. Acknowledging and being aware of certain aspects of your shadow is different from embracing and nourishing them.

And my point regarding ultimately serving good is still true in my opinion. Even if you don't go for one day without thinking of serving your needs and only your needs, you will still have to provide a service or product or something of value in order to stay alive on this planet. That service, in and of itself, is contributing to the wellbeing of someone somewhere. So no one can really say they got through life and only benefited themselves. Everyone ends up serving some greater good.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Until someone can explain to me how dark working differs from enlightened self-interest with a side of hedonism, I'm going to go on believing it doesn't exist.

Ditto. New Age Schmew Age.

[Alstar]

Originally Posted by nietsdoen

IF that was his true motive.

I know it's the "cool" thing to demonize Hitler and refer to him whenever the topic of "bad" people comes up, but it's just wildly irrelevant in this topic. Hitler did great things for Germany, which means he worked for the betterment of his people. It's selfish in a national-centric way, sure, but such was the culture of the time, and even today.

I would really expect a lot more maturity from people on a personal development forum. It's far too simplistic to just repeat "Hitler was bad, Hitler was bad, Hitler was bad" and not focus on any of the good things he brought or his good qualities.