Human value and work

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ZenPhysicist

I'd say human rights are often violated by the legal code. Much of drug enforcement comes to mind. My previous point is that the concept of help requires at minimum 2 people - a helper and a person who is helped (supposing it is not self help.) Now, the government can say you have a right to a thing - say legal counsel. They hire lawyers to help you. You have a right to help in an emergency - they hire police, firefighters, emts. But out government has never been in the business of providing health care and they are not able to hire the number of doctors required. You cannot simply make up a new right and not provide a means for that right to be fulfilled. Who would treat all the people that would go to the clinic demanding to exercise their right to healthcare? There are not enough medical professionals for that - nor is there enough money to pay to school and hire all those that would be needed.

"I don't know" would have sufficed.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by ZenPhysicist

Maybe I am splitting hairs - but I would be careful about describing health care as a right - especially a human right. Rand Paul (a libertarian) tried to make this point - but he failed miserably. Of course, health care is not a right. For example, if there is an event where many people are hurt and al the local hospitals are filled to capacity (such as Hurricane Katrina, Sept. 11, etc.) Some people will be turned away, or simply not helped due to no medical staff available. If they have a right to medical care - we would have to say that their rights were violated. This example is extreme - but meant to show that medical care is a privilege - not a right. In countries where the law says you get social security or health care if you meet certain criteria, then it could be argued that you have a right to those things when those criteria are met, but it is still not a basic human right.

Human Rights tend to be things that center around being treated fairly, and equally.

Just because it is not enforced right now (for whatever good or bad reasons) doesn't stop it being a human right in my opinion....

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I really liked this comment with its 'project implications'. I never went into the social services (despite having a BA in sociology) because I always thought of my self as being tied to the government. If the government doesn't provide adequate funding, then thats it. But that is not really true. The idea of coming up with my own little project scares the hell out of me though, tbh. Oh well, all the more reason to do it.

If you want some business ideas that could work with homeless / mentally ill / work unstable people :

Create a "chore" company. Have a small office where people can call in with their chores (such as mowing the lawn, washing the car, walking the dog, washing the windows etc) and the people in need for cash can walk in, get a job, and get paid after (via the company).

Of course you'd have to "classify" the people walking in... you wouldn't want a paranoid schizophrenic on drugs in side someone's house ), but they could wash the car.

You can even "pay" them in meals and a bed of higher value then the money they would otherwise get, give them that choice.

It would have to be a not-for-profit most likely, but enough to be sustained by itself. After initial set up it can even be run by people who cannot get another job.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZenPhysicist

I would ask why you don't provide healthcare for those of your family that need it? Or why not you and the rest of your family get together and provide it? Really, that is the basic question.

Do you have experience with providing long term care to family, especially when you have to get other family involved? It's a huge commitment; and I honestly can't believe you're trying to shame someone for something she may or may not be doing in order to make your political point. That's low.

[OptimistPrime]

Thanks for sharing your experience in Mexico, ssandra.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Do you have experience with providing long term care to family, especially when you have to get other family involved? It's a huge commitment; and I honestly can't believe you're trying to shame someone for something she may or may not be doing in order to make your political point. That's low.

Everyone in Canada gets a basic level of health care, so I don't really get what his point is (and don't intend on finding out - I have him on ignore). But hey! I'm still willing to play 'nurse Zephy' for anyone in need of 'medical attention'.

@ssandra: Thanks for the business ideas

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by zephyrusx

but hey! I'm still willing to play 'nurse zephy' for anyone in need of 'medical attention'.

[ZenPhysicist]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Do you have experience with providing long term care to family, especially when you have to get other family involved? It's a huge commitment; and I honestly can't believe you're trying to shame someone for something she may or may not be doing in order to make your political point. That's low.

The intent is not to shame - not at all. The idea is that this thread explores the idea of human value - and the examples of social security and healthcare were given. The question is rhetorical really. It's meant to underscore my opinion that a family and a local community, not a state or a nation, are responsible for taking care of each other in these kind of situations. Are we willing to do all we can before we call on strangers? Are we willing to exhaust all of our own resources before we look at another person and ask/demand that they get involved? If you want to understand human value - first you have to know what the concept means to you.

And, for the record, my dad is severely disabled and my mom takes primary care of him.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tanemon

You've heard of Zen Buddhism, right? This is how it got started... Buddhism developed in India, from the spiritual teaching of one historical individual ("the Buddha"), who lived about 2500 years ago. In India, holy men like Buddha were supported by the populace through donations of food, shelter, clothing, etc. About 1500 years ago, some emissary practioner/teachers of Buddhism began to wander over into China. There were some people in China who - recognizing holy men and valuing them - provided food. For a while... a few generations.

Then, the Chinese people began to look askance at these freeloaders. (The Chinese have always been extremely practical, hardworking, inventive & clever - and socially conscious, in the sense of believing in family-level responsibility.) The social situation demanded that these Buddihists support themselves and not rely solely on hand-outs. The Buddhists adapted by learning to become - besides meditators, people of intrinsic worth, and teachers - farmers, carpenters, architects, and healers. They formed their own communities, worked at practical things as well as being individuals pursuing a path of personal development and personal liberation.

Yes. In many parts of Asia, the monks also earn a living by taking on the role of performing last rites for the dead (a service for which they do charge fees).

[Michael Chui]

Eh, may as well respond to this. Waiting for water to boil anyways.

Originally Posted by ZenPhysicist

The intent is not to shame - not at all. The idea is that this thread explores the idea of human value - and the examples of social security and healthcare were given. The question is rhetorical really. It's meant to underscore my opinion that a family and a local community, not a state or a nation, are responsible for taking care of each other in these kind of situations. Are we willing to do all we can before we call on strangers? Are we willing to exhaust all of our own resources before we look at another person and ask/demand that they get involved? If you want to understand human value - first you have to know what the concept means to you.

And, for the record, my dad is severely disabled and my mom takes primary care of him.

A family or a local community is capable of providing care to itself to the extent that the state or nation allows them to. The less the state imposes itself on the family or community's environment, the less said family or community is capable of providing care. The reason the mortality rate of the entire world has dropped is because governments enable largescale applications of health care. If it is a family providing care to itself, then the extent to which the government provided or provisioned resources have made an education possible affects the quality of care said family can provide to itself.

"All of your own resources" are your own because the government said they were. Unless I completely mistake and you're getting Internet off a handmade copper splice routed to the Canadian wilderness where you're in a cabin built by your great-grandfather?

It's a fine sentiment to take care of your own first. Fine. But just because you accept that burden doesn't mean that you should impose it on others. Funding medical research to identify causes and treatments of diseases and disabilities? Government's job. Provisioning hospitals? Government's job. Verifying that over-the-counter medicines are legit? Government's job. Providing a system to discourage intolerably low-quality medical equipment? Government's job. Making sure you have sanitized running water? Government's job.

And water's boiling. Ta.

[Michael Chui]

Those who were interested in this stuff, I did just find this:

The Future of Money. Bernard Lietaer 2012 Time for Change Presents Part1 - YouTube
The Future of Money. Bernard Lietaer 2012 Time for Change Presents Part2 - YouTube
The Future of Money. Bernard Lietaer 2012 Time for Change Presents Part3 - YouTube
And I think this is the same: Complementary currency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't understand these well enough to say that this is good. But Lietaer is a currency expert and I am not... and he seems to have faith in this idea.

Also, parallel thread: https://plus.google.com/113476531580...ts/1ZPNUScphYq

[Brutha]

Yes, Bernard Lietaer is an intelligent fellow.
For those who want a more deep intellectual analysis from him then youtube videos provide his whitepaper is nice: http://www.lietaer.com/images/White_...ises_final.pdf