Spirituality For Beginners-help

[royster]

I think this topic development belongs here, rather than "Spirituality" because this is more of a collecting of views to help create a basic spiritual "guideline" for those rather befuddled by the vast ocean of spiritual options.

I'm confident each of us can agree that a simple starting place would have benefited us, when we started out. As it was, most of us have had to sort through an awful lot of crud and detritus to get to the point we are now.

Contribute and comment as you see fit, but two things I'd like to get views on: a basic description of our spiritual nature, and your perceptions of "The Shift".

So, what you are saying is that mentally I may not think I'm ready for the shift but actually it is possible that I am? If this is true, then the opposite is also a possibility. How would one know for certain where they are?

Forgive me if this is a silly question. As I attempt to learn more about this process it seems the more confused I have become.

Perhaps it is an information overload of sorts?

Perhaps I am trying too hard and/or too quickly?

Perhaps I need to just relax and just let it happen as it happens?

Many people are really sruggling with both issues at the moment. I want to take the best insights, incorporate them in a document that all can share, and that will be posted on the Spirituality board.

Here is some food-for-thought from my own website.

And please know I appreciate all input. THANKS

Any input from members will assist in a comprehensive outline of basic spirituality...to share with those who don't know where to start.
Here's a website I found, and reading the fisrt few paragraphs is helpful, but I actually want to start out even more bare-bones than this.
Beginners Guide to Spirituality

The idea has been with me for a while, but it's really been prompted from Lee's recent post and his need to know:
Inifinite Being~ Owen Waters

[royster]

Questions welcomed, too.

Durn: no WONDER everyone's so in the dark: they refuse to participate and share!!

[VinceG]

In my opinion, creating such a beginner's guide would amount to creating yet another "school" of spiritual thought. We don't need more schools, we need more plain, unadorned, discussion of the sort that's already happening here.

[N64]

My "spiritual practice" is of Buddhist tradition, in vipassana meditation. I try to set aside 12-15 mts a day and meditate.

your perceptions of "The Shift"

It occurred after reading Plato's allegory of the cave about 2 yrs ago. Life hasn't been the same since. It's almost a nagging urge to find out more about the true nature of reality/ a sense of yearning in the background

[royster]

We don't need more schools, we need more plain, unadorned, discussion

I agree. My objective is a universally useful zero starting point that anyone can get a foothold with.

It's almost a nagging urge to find out more about the true nature of reality/ a sense of yearning in the background

This is excellent.

[N64]

This is excellent.

Yes, but not very pleasant.It's confusing, disorienting and paints your day to day reality with a hint of malaise/longing. Having insights into what your ego really is not all happy and nice. Christians call it "Dark night of the soul"

The only way to get through it is, in my opinion is to just note and be with it, and practice meditation. Also, be careful of the sense of "self", it hates any revelation which gives that it is impermanent and changing. The "self" loves structure and it clings to a pattern. So, the "self" will shed its old identification, but it will identify with new things, such as spirituality. I am is guilty of this , but such is life I guess

[N64]

simple starting place would have benefited us

A starting place that benefited me was gaining insights about my thoughts and feelings, seeing that they arise and disappear by their own accord and our sense of "self" is what holds on to these mental impulses and builds a life out of it. The methods I used are vipassana meditation, and conceptually ( yeah.. more concepts, lol) I read a lot of Buddhist/non dualist literature.

Another thing I'd like to address is, there are pre conceived notions about a spiritual practice being all about love and bliss, exalted states and fun stuff like that. It hasn't been all that for me. Instead, it has been a cathartic process ( still ongoing) there is a lot of malaise and irritability.

[royster]

Some excellent pointers N64. In part it's why I'd like to incorporate some of the AA principles, because we are warned that we have a lot of discomfort waiting ahead, but as we weed through it, it gets easier.

Enlightenment and ascension are indeed not all prettiness and fluff.

Thanks for your post...I'd like to use it to highlight this point.

[LostMyMap]

I for one would like to see what Royster wants to create here because I get overwhelmed with the 'information' out there, and sorting the wheat from the chaff.

[royster]

Thanks, LMM. A valued contribution would be questions from those very people who are looking for just such "put the hay down where the goats can git at it" offerings.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by royster

Thanks, LMM. A valued contribution would be questions from those very people who are looking for just such "put the hay down where the goats can git at it" offerings.

Hmm.

Well I guess the best place to start is at the beginning. What exactly does 'spirituality' mean? I realize that in itself is a question that could lead to endless distracting discussions. But some simple baseline that most can agree on would be helpful.

Maybe the question is thus: What does spirituality mean to you?

I'm guessing that you can't be an atheist and believe in spirituality? Seems that spirituality implies that there is something more to us (and possibly all living things) than the stuff our bodies are made of? And then the next step is that this extra-corporeal part is connected to some universal, and greater, energy? (God, Allah, The Universe, The Force, etc.)

Am I even on the right track?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I for one would like to see what Royster wants to create here because I get overwhelmed with the 'information' out there, and sorting the wheat from the chaff.

If you're really just looking for somewhere to start, David Hawkins' stuff is a great place. It's about as clear and understandable as you're going to get from spiritual writings, both because it comes from Hawkins himself and because he's from the States like you and me. Lots of writings are second-hand from masters for whom English isn't a first language, so a lot of stuff gets lost in translation.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I'm guessing that you can't be an atheist and believe in spirituality? Seems that spirituality implies that there is something more to us (and possibly all living things) than the stuff our bodies are made of? And then the next step is that this extra-corporeal part is connected to some universal, and greater, energy? (God, Allah, The Universe, The Force, etc.)

That is a fantastic question. I can tell you how I resolved it for myself.

In my early twenties, I was pretty hard-core atheist. I thought religion was silly. But I maintained a commitment to the truth, and that commitment to the truth led to the realization that while religion wasn't important to me, it was to a lot of people. So it wasn't all crap.

After I made peace with religion I continued to explore that which I considered to be the truth. That exploration led to finding a lot of stuff about thought and emotion and evolution. I learned that religion tends to make people happier. I didn't understand what that meant at first.

I started to distrust modern life and its answers to life's problems. More primitive forms of life are more fulfilling. I started looking at primitive people's cultures, and all of them revolved around religion. Then I looked at modern religious societies, and all these people seemed to be happier and fulfilled in a way that resembled primitive tribal life. That led me to believe that religion is fundamental to our existence.

But I still couldn't believe in any religion. That changed as I started to plumb through the depths of consciousness when I started reading Hawkins. I noticed that so much of it involved a relationship with what people called "The Source." It tended to be conflated with concepts like God. I wondered how all of these concepts were connected.

Finally, I realized that all of these concepts are, at their core, beliefs in the solidity of the world around them. I was being religious in my early twenties with my dedication to truth and my conviction that there wasn't an anthropomorphic God. That's what allowed me to continue on a spiritual path even without a dedication to conventional religion.

If you look through your life, you'll see elements of religion. You don't need to change these elements and suddenly start getting comfortable with a belief in God. Eventually through spirituality, the understanding of the divine deepens and transforms and unfolds in loads of different ways.

To find elements of religion in your life, look for everything that points outside of yourself. For me, I believed in a truth that one had to seek. I couldn't find all the answers in myself, for I'm ignorant in many ways. Anything that points away from your existence is essentially religious in nature.

The more you identify with such things, the more you'll start taking on aspects of religious fervor. I never understood before why religious people would say, even before I identified myself as atheist, that I must be very religious or spiritual. Now I do. I was.

[royster]

That is a fantastic question.

Yes, it is, and Vince gives a terrific answer.

And I cannot give such answers, because from early childhood, I had off-world contacts.

But not everybody does. Some are perfectly neutral in those respects yet still have a desire to seek.

LMM's question and Vince's answer are just excellent examples of what many people need right now. Cut through the crap, get to the meat-of-the-matter.

[sorter]

I'm not sure I am spiritual at least like anyone else.

My faith is that God is everything, everywhere, always.
My religion is doing my best to comprehend my faith even though that's not possible.

So, I don't go to church or pray because that would be redundant.
Nothing I can possibly experience isn't religious, isn't praying, and isn't God.

I worship this reality (real or not) that God gave me. It's sacrilege to do otherwise.
I look for God in worldly experience and worldly anxieties--not in heaven, church, or fanciful abstract ideas of powerful beings.

But that's just me.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by royster

LMM's question and Vince's answer are just excellent examples of what many people need right now. Cut through the crap, get to the meat-of-the-matter.

Thing is, royster, it starts with the questioner, not the answerer. Much harder to assemble a bunch of questions than it is to assemble a bunch of answers. Because the questions are as varied as the questioners, and the answers must take into account the questioners as well as the questions. To lead with answers, that's the way we got into this mess. So seek questions, not answers.

[royster]

...and statements like sorters!


topic mirrored Spirituality For Beginners

[N64]

I was being religious in my early twenties with my dedication to truth and my conviction that there wasn't an anthropomorphic God. That's what allowed me to continue on a spiritual path even without a dedication to conventional religion.

Dedication to a "religion" can actually be a distraction from spirituality. Religious dogma are just more structures. Religious concepts should be used as pointers instead of the ultimate goal itself. Like the zen koan says "the hand that points to the moon is not the moon itself"

But, when undergoing difficult times, a religious perspective can be used as a comforting perspective of re framing the experience of the "self"

Nothing I can possibly experience isn't religious, isn't preying, and isn't God.

I worship this reality (real or not) that God gave me. It's sacrilege to do otherwise.

Brilliant !

Much harder to assemble a bunch of questions than it is to assemble a bunch of answers

Because the questions are as varied as the questioners

Absolutely true.

[N64]

Spirituality - It's not a concept, it's a process.

"Spirituality" Is the conceptualization of the process of the ultimate goal of enlightenment/merging with God

Rather than asking "what is spirituality?" a more suitable question would be

"how is the process working out for you?" and "what are the methods you are using?" or "what are the insights you have gained?"

Also, we must keep in mind that, up to a certain extent this process unfolds by itself. You can't use your willpower to gain insights. Meditate, and let it unfold. Pray and let it unfold.

Because the questions are as varied as the questioners

And the process differs from one individual to another, but each of them can understand another spiritual seeker who is following a different path, it's like speaking about the same thing in a different language. There are six billion people, and there are six billion ways of God witnessing thyself through them.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Hmm.

Well I guess the best place to start is at the beginning. What exactly does 'spirituality' mean? I realize that in itself is a question that could lead to endless distracting discussions. But some simple baseline that most can agree on would be helpful.

Maybe the question is thus: What does spirituality mean to you?

I'm guessing that you can't be an atheist and believe in spirituality? Seems that spirituality implies that there is something more to us (and possibly all living things) than the stuff our bodies are made of? And then the next step is that this extra-corporeal part is connected to some universal, and greater, energy? (God, Allah, The Universe, The Force, etc.)

Am I even on the right track?

There are some Einstein quotes that really capture what "spirituality" means to me.

"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. The true value of a human being is determined by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954) "


"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science) "

In a broader sense, I think spirituality is the sum total of humanity's search for connectedness, bliss, and understanding of the nature of reality.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by N64

Brilliant !

Thanks. Now if only I had spelled praying correctly.
"preying" is sort of interesting but it's not what I meant.
.

[LostMyMap]

hey, this is the best thread I've seen here in awhile. Thanks Royster!

VinceG - Thank you for the great response. A couple of things really struck me. One is, for all the dissing of religion, (in this forum as well) I agree, the people I know who have strong faith in their religion are by and large happy and feel connected. Being from the Midwest, I have lots of examples of this including my own brother, an ordained minister (and concrete contractor, how cool is that!). I also see how this faith carries them through times of trouble, and I have an example of that: my family lives not too far from Joplin, MO, and that was my old stomping ground. It's really difficult to see the pictures of devastation in Joplin left by the tornado. But I know that the people there are of strong stock, and their faith will help them rebuild and carry on.

Second, I suppose the next question to ponder, is the relationship between spirituality and religion. Where do they intersect? Where are they different?

Sorter - also excellent response. The "God is everywhere" idea sure sounds like spirituality to me.

Mariana - My Star Trek girl quotes Einstein. And this.

In a broader sense, I think spirituality is the sum total of humanity's search for connectedness, bliss, and understanding of the nature of reality.

That's a pretty awesome definition if you ask me. If I was younger and lived closer to you .....

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Mariana - My Star Trek girl quotes Einstein. And this.

That's a pretty awesome definition if you ask me. If I was younger and lived closer to you .....

Second, I suppose the next question to ponder, is the relationship between spirituality and religion. Where do they intersect? Where are they different?

I think by my definition of spirituality above, religion is a subset of spirituality: packaged for cultural consumption with corresponding ethics, histories, rituals, and identity. We had spirituality before religion (such as tribal "animistic" spiritual traditions) and many people in the modern era are finding a sort of 'post-religious' spirituality. Even within fundamentalist circles today, I guess you could say that the way everyone brings their own experiences to the doctrine and then internalizes it makes it their own unique spiritual path, even if they choose to identify with a group.

I wrote a post a while ago in this thread about how I currently experience religion:

Funny thing is, I'm an atheist for all practical purposes, but the more time passes from my fundy past the more good feeling fascination I have with different religions (although I still really wish people would make decisions with physical and social consequences based on a reasonable standard of evidence and altruistic values but that's another thread). I'm especially fascinated by Judaism, actually, because of the boring exposure to it I had as a Christian as just a historical stepping stone to my own religion. But, no, it's a bona fide different thing and it's like discovering a completely new take on this stuff. Can't think of a better word for it than fascinating.

Like I said though, I'm kinda feeling that with all religions, even Christianity, because now they seem alien and fresh. They don't have the ugly guilt ridden obligatory, hellish colour they used to. They're all like this massive story book with a gold mine of perspectives. Not to mention the historical/anthropological/social issues that are reflected all through them.

Since I feel no obligation to do conform to the itty bitty little roles that a human being must be in these social constructs, I get to enjoy the paradigm like this all encompassing story: this alternate reality to play with my emotions.

[royster]

For YOU, LostMyMap

Visualize Daily

A written transcript for those on dial-up or who want to read it
Visualize Daily

[bbl]

Originally Posted by N64

Spirituality - It's not a concept, .

Did you study the Goenka methods?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

VinceG - Thank you for the great response. A couple of things really struck me. One is, for all the dissing of religion, (in this forum as well) I agree, the people I know who have strong faith in their religion are by and large happy and feel connected.

That was another thing that really helped me get over my reservations and move to a place where I could peacefully coexist with religion, even though I couldn't believe myself. The vast majority of religious people are just as you say, happy and connected people. When you have a grudge, your mind creates what you want to see.

But, even if you have a grudge, having a commitment to something outside of yourself, in my case the concept of "truth," the struggle eventually forces you to re-examine the grudge. It doesn't have to be truth, it can be music, philosophy, martial arts, anything. It's just religion in another form.

Second, I suppose the next question to ponder, is the relationship between spirituality and religion. Where do they intersect? Where are they different?

Just different labels for the same thing. Words have power, and the power lies in their definition. When someone says they're "spiritual but not religious," they're highlighting the differences between spirituality and religion. A religious person goes to church, they embody the visible social aspects of spirituality. They might invoke God's name a lot, and be more judgmental.

Of course, this is in the mind of the person who says they're spiritual and not religious, rather than inherent in the meanings of the words themselves. They consider "spirituality" to be the "good" aspects of religion without the "bad" aspects of conformity, judgment, speaking in tongues.

Truth is, though, they're all the same concept in the end, just slightly different flavors when you use different words. Everyone needs something a little different from God, the sum total of how you approach it is what people will use when they characterize themselves as spiritual or religious. Just like the difference between "sexy," and "cute."

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Truth is, though, they're all the same concept in the end, just slightly different flavors when you use different words. Everyone needs something a little different from God, the sum total of how you approach it is what people will use when they characterize themselves as spiritual or religious. Just like the difference between "sexy," and "cute."

That's one sexy beast...

[royster]

Many thanks to the contributors. I hope to keep this thread alive.

Therefore, I'm bumping it.

[royster]

Having thought about and meditated on this, I remember, now, in my early teenage years coming to some spiritual beginnings on a mainstream level.

The "accepting Jesus as your savior" incidents were a point of surrender, but now I realise it was prompted by someones coaxing, not by any natural conclusions of my own. However, it does outline a starting point: asking something higher than myself to guide me. That's essentially what accepting some savior comes down to. Unfortunately this leaves us vulnerable to dark energies to take advantage of those very vulnerabilities.

And I sort of shuffled around biblical stuff, but I found I was forcing myself to accept a lot of (what I now see as) dogma, and it really wasn't what I was looking for. Still, in the various churches I went to, stayed with a while, then moved on, there was an element of focus. I remember riding my bicycle to bible meetings, and the friends I had there.

At age 13 I began to actually go to the school library and dared to check out books of topics that strongly interested me: UFO's and the Titanic. Paranormal was interesting, too, but those two subjects I persued.

So I might suggest that seekers involve themselves with their own strong interests, regardless of what mainstream peer-pressure suggests they do. In feeding the hunger of your curiosity you will come across unexpected avenues and insights that are of your own interest...which will hold your focus, and lead you to higher insights.

In writing this, I realise how we are dictated to about what is going to get us to Heaven or Hell, and these demands offer no shades of gray. I am truly understanding the importance of free will, and letting others discover their own truths, in the ways that they see fit.

Wow. I'm starting all over, myself, now

[LostMyMap]

Ha! I was all interested in UFOs and pyramids back at that age. Did you read Von Daniken (sp?)

Also, even as a kid, I wasn't comfortable with the rigidity of the religion. And as a hard-head, the word 'surrender' never sat well.

You mentioned a couple of times about asking questions, and I'd like to ask more, but I don't even really know where to start.