Article: Is it bad to eat meat?

[Agota]

I have noticed there was a lot of dicussions about vegetarinism/veganism vs. eating meat and I've just published an article which you guys might find interesting:

Is it bad to eat meat?

[Franco904]

I don't know whether it's bad or good, but try it out for yourself.

Just don't eat meat for 1 month, see how you'll feel, and decide for yourself.

[alexplatups]

I read your article, and it seems to be more about YOU, than if meat is
good or bad. The article is more about YOUR current religion than the
title of your post. In the future, if you are writing about meat (or whatever
else) being good or bad, it would be a good idea to write only about that,
and not spend 90% of the article writing about something else. This is just
my honest opinion about this article, because I went and read the whole thing
and was shocked that it was focused on YOU mostly and NOT on the topic
of the article.

[Agota]

Thank you for your feedback.

I wasn't trying to discuss eating meat as good or bad health wise, my intention was to question the dogmatic approach many vegetarians and vegans have to eating meat and the judgement on people who eat meat

[Savage]

You seemed to hint that being strictly vegetarian equates to being fanatical. Is it really fanatical though if it works for the person following the diet?

When you're on a path of conscious growth, you're bound to do some things that stray from the averages. But as individuals we all prefer different foods, so it's hard to say that anyone is fanatical relative to anyone else.

I've been eating 100% raw again for the past 3 weeks, and this way of eating feels very normal and routine. I don't consider it odd or fanatical, and it certainly hasn't curtailed my social life.

Relative to all the other species on this planet, humans could be labeled fanatics for being the only species that cooks their food, but do such labels really matter?

In the past when I would label a behavior that I was potentially interested in as fanatical, it was an expression of my own resistance to how much work I'd need to do on myself to feel fully comfortable with it. I had an idea I wanted to go there, but I wasn't sure I could pull it off. Or maybe I could do it for a while, but I doubted I could maintain it.

Once you become comfortable with it though and feel good about maintaining it, it's just normal and routine, regardless of what other people might think about it.

And incidentally, I'd turn down the lama without hesitation and ask if I could perhaps have some fruit instead. He's just a character in my reality, so I wouldn't feel obligated in any way to eat what he offered. Tradition can always be overridden by conscious choice. I wouldn't give any power away to the tradition if it didn't mesh with my choices.

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by Agota

Thank you for your feedback.

I wasn't trying to discuss eating meat as good or bad health wise, my intention was to question the dogmatic approach many vegetarians and vegans have to eating meat and the judgement on people who eat meat

Your intention becomes clear in the beginning of the article, which is obviously
a good thing for the reader. I was just trying to point out that the title doesn't
match the content. This might anoy some of your readers, because when they
arrive on your blog and start to read your article, they will realize that it does
not interest them. If this happens a few times, they might start to ignore
them in the future.

I would also go and read the article if it was titled "Vegans Judging People
Who Eat Meat" for example, and in this case I would be really happy to read
what you wrote because the title is more distinct and points at what the
article is really about.

But, Is it bad to eat meat? points at the action of eating the meat and NOT at
the person eating the meat and the judgment a vegetarian might make
toward people that eat meat.

I'm telling you this as a person that is interested in both topics.

Plus, there is really nothing wrong with judging people that eat meat if you
are a vegetarian. If you judge them, you judge them, period.

In the end, it is all about beliefs anyway. As humans we have nothing but
beliefs, when it comes to the choices we make or don't make.

We really don't KNOW anything for sure, even if we and this reality that
we believe is real, actually even exists. We believe it does, but we have
no way of really knowing. This is something that is ignored in our cultures.

We believe that there are facts and objective reality, and that rocks are hard
and water is wet, but in the end we are all consciousness that is having some
kind of experience, and an individuated piece of this consciousness (human
being, for example) is interpreting this experience by making distinctions
between one thing and another.

Each of these distinctions is give a name (water, rock) and within those
distinctions we make other distinctions (wet, hard, etc).

What this boils down to is this: There is NOTHING except distinctions.

Everything that we experience is a distinction. EVERYTHING, without
exception. This might be interesting to you, since you are interested
in awareness and consciousness.

Think about this. No matter what happens to you, externally and internally
is a distinction. Every thought, every internal physical process in your body,
and every external process that you interpret through your senses.

From the moment you are born and to the moment you die, you (and all other
sentient beings) are making distinctions between everything there is.

Interesting isn't it?

[AngelPsychic444]

Ever since I began to communicate with angels, they have been giving me all sorts of hints as to how to raise my vibrational rate and also be in general good health. One thing they really pointed out to me in a very obvious ways is that I should give some thought to stop eating red meat. I've read in angels books that in order to raise your vibration rate giving up meat is a good idea. Also, the when the animal is killed the pain they go through is transfered to the meat and when you eat it, your emotional body takes on some of that pain, which in turn plays havoc with your emotional body. Many vegetarians often say they feel lighter, and happier once they gave up meat, and I do think there is some truth to that.

I had a hard time giving up meat but I'm off it now, and I'm super happy. I'm not a full vegetarian but I'm working my way in that direction.

If a person insists on eating meat I do not look down on them, and I do hang around with friends who are still meat eaters and go out to dinner with them, and have no problems, I think everyone should eat what they feel is right for them. I still have fond memories of eating T-bone steaks... but those days are over for me.

[aelle]

Refusing to do what teacher tells you to do because of your own beliefs shows a lack of trust in teacher. You can’t learn from someone you can’t trust.

I disagree with this sentiment.
You also can't learn without critical thought - taking every word of a mentor for gospel won't bring you many lessons, not any truly internalized lessons. This means that sometimes you will disagree with a teacher, and that's okay, and that doesn't mean you reject everything else they may teach you.

That said, it was definitely an overreaction of your part - the suggestion didn't deserve a huge scene, just a "thanks but no thanks."

I find it a bit of a cop-out to say that you can simply change your perception and make meat okay. At the end of the day, there is still a significant amount of animal suffering behind that piece of meat, no matter if you find it disgusting or delicious, no matter who hands it to you. You can decide that in a given situation, the benefit of eating meat outweighs the cost of this suffering... but it's still there.

[Thusfar]

When i first discovered the benefits of eating a raw diet and found the harmful effects of consuming animal products, i did find my self judging people and my family for consuming it and being always on there back on why they should not eat meat. This got me no where.


from my experience i learned that when a person is judging another person, in reality it's not really about the other person , the person is just a mirror reflecting everything back all the qualities they would never indulge in.

For example:

Vegetarians , Vegans and raw foodest usually made the decision to switch because they have studied and understand how animal products are harmful to their health and the environment. so when they judge a meat eater , they are projecting their world view on them, "how dare you eat meat, don't you know how harmful it is to your health and environment" in there head they could never let them selves get away with such behavior so they won't let meat eater's get away with it to.

when you see things from this point of view, its easier to be not judgmental
because by being judgmental is your way of expressing that your were not smart enough, clever enough , clear enough , etc. to express it to them in a positive manner were you can share in your understanding and have them asking for more and more. so you both win at the end.


i tried to express my point of view as well as i can, if it does not make sense or if you want me to elaborate please let me know. i hope my post helps someone.

Peace.

[Just Passing Through]

Maybe they're not really changing perception. Playing with words and semantics doesn't change perception. Drugs can change perception. Extremely different action can also do so. For instance if a civilized person were to kill and eat wild animals for survival that might change perception a little bit. I'm not saying words can't change perception but with out any power they're not going to really do anything. Personally I don't find meat appealing in itself at this time, although certain junk food with meat is still highly appealing to me for short term pleasure (followed by feeling like crap and recovery). However I have been having this latent hankering for a bit of shrimp for the past few months. If it's anything like the hunger I felt for meat years ago, a few ounces once would probably eradicate it for months or years. This hunger is mysterious because why would I build up a hunger for months for a single meal or two of small amounts of something and then that would satisfy for months or years? Very odd. Doesn't seem like a hunger worth fighting since it's asking so little of me.

I think the meat industries as well as all the other industries that exploit people animals and plants and totally F everything up will eventually collapse along with many other civilizational constructs that depend on raping everything to function, assuming we don't all get wiped out by something else first, and I'm sure there will be a nice hell that follows, for me included since I've foolishly remained attached to so many of the pleasures and comforts thereof, for how many of us this hell would be I don't know, but I'm definitely not going to stick around the crowds!

I ain't really got nothing against eating meat per se though but its definitely not something i am proud of especialy considering how i procure whatever meat i do eat. If it makes you feel any better i eat extremely little and almost never

Oh by the way you can talk distinctions all you want but when its your life on the line maybe your distinctions will be more distinctive for you

[Agota]

Steve, I wasn't hinting that eating a strictly vegetarian diet is fanaticism. I was saying that being dogmatic about it to the point where you can't see the situation clearly is. I'm currently vegetarian and I'd love to go vegan and raw in the future. However, inability to eat a piece of meat when it's appropriate thing to do in certain situations is not a good quality.

It's the same way with alcohol. I don't drink any alcohol, except literally few sips of champagne during new years celebration (which often happens to be non-alcoholic, since my friends don't drink as well) and a literally a drop of wine in buddhist ritual called cog. However, there are situations where I should drink alcohol. My teacher could give me a shot of Vodka when I'm freezing. It would be foolish to refuse only because I don't drink alcohol in general. I can also be invited to a celebration where people toast someone with alcohol and in some cultures it would be seen as a personal offense to the host not to drink in that situation and that could be avoided if I'd take a one sip and not touch a glass again. I don't think the fact that I don't drink any alcohol makes me fanatic (although many people do think that ) , I think that being dogmatic about it would.

Aelle, I understand the reason why you disagree that refusing to do what teacher says is a lack of trust in teacher. I do agree that everything should be based on your own analysis. It was very hard for me to make a relation between basing things on your own reasoning and following a teacher, since it seemed like opposite concepts to me.This is why I was a very arrogant student for many years and wouldn't listen to my teacher and got a little caught up in "testing the teacher" phase.

However, throughout the course of many years, I see the the same pattern: my teacher tells me to do something, I don't do it because I don't understand it, then after some time, weeks, months or years I run to him crying why I don't get the results I wanted, although he told me what to do but I didn't do it. The reason I wouldn't do something was because I don't see the connections that my teacher is able to see. I can wait for five more years to understand something he says and then do it, or I can do it based on trust and get the results in one year. I really gave it a thought and analyzed patterns of my previous behaviour and the results I got and decided to give it a try and to actually listen to my teacher. I'm getting results way faster now. The main reason of following a teacher is that you can get results much faster with him than you would get without him, both spiritual and material.My obedience (or at least my attempts on that) is based on my own logical analysis of the patterns and results I got in ten years time. When you see that everytime when you don't listen to your teacher your run into a massive trouble, and everytime you listen to him you get results much more easily and that's happening for ten years and you can't think about the time when what your teacher said got you in trouble (and you see the exactly same pattern of not doing what teacher says and running back to him crying or doing what teacher says and getting results very fast on loads of other people) it really does makes sense to consider actually doing what he says, doesn't it?

..btw, from stricly easter perspective of teacher-student relationship, my teacher could have kicked me out for refusing to do what he says, because it's pointless to teach someone who refuses to listen to you and his time would be better spent on people who actually do what he says. I sometimes really don't understand where he gets his patience with me and my arrogance. I believe that's his compassion combined with wisdom that makes him so patient and forgiving

P.S. I don't want to give an impression that my teacher requires blind obedience. I have clear authority issues, which is good in most cases, because I'd question things from young age and adults wouldn't answer me, apart from "How dare you!" and "That's just a way it is". The reason why I did accept my first teacher and my current teacher as authorities because I could come to them and say "I'm really angry on you, I think you're not treating me fairly and in general I think what you just said is a complete non-sense" and they would explain me their actions or words. I was always encouraged to be very blunt with them and all problems I got myself into was when I wasn't speaking my mind but thinking negatively. I can't remember a single time when I'd be told off for disagreeing with something, not understanding something or being angry and expressing that, they would simply take time to explain me things and still do. It simply that there are things that are way beyond my current understanding (it took me literally six years to see childhood issues that affect my behavior, although my teacher was talking about it all the time), therefore as I said, I can wait for many years to understand it myself or I can do something based on trust and get the results.

P.P.S. Many people say that I'm wise for someone who is 21 when they see my writing or when they speak to me. What they don't see, however, is countless hours that my first teacher and my current teacher have spent explaining me different things and different situations over the course of many years, despite my extreme arrogance. It is only now that I'm starting to understand what a valuable thing it is to have a teacher.

[Agota]

By the way, in most cases, I do think that Buddhists who eat meat and explain that with tantric ideas are more often than not just using it as an excuse. Their underlying motivation for eating steak is not to make a karmic connection with that cow or throw it's consciousness into higher realms, it's simply that steak is tasty. However, there are people who are actually eating meat with that intention (they start talking mantras even when they smell pizza while passing through the restaurant so they could help beings whose meat is on that pizza). My point was that although most people eat meat out of ignorance, there are people who eat meat as a spiritual practice, therefore it's not wise to judge accomplished teachers who are eating meat without understanding their underlying motivation (and as I said, from buddhist perspective, a prostitute or a thief can be an accomplished teacher in disguise and that's bad to judge them, therefore it's better no to judge anyone just in case ).

[Ne Cede Malis]

Originally Posted by Agota

I have noticed there was a lot of dicussions about vegetarinism/veganism vs. eating meat and I've just published an article which you guys might find interesting:

Is it bad to eat meat?

Hi Agota - I enjoyed your article very much.

I was a vegetarian for a couple of years and experienced similar thoughts and feelings about the issue as you have expressed. Some meat eaters are quick to dismiss none meat eating, and some vegetarians and vegans do bang their drum some what and are a little over veracious in their opinions!

I missed meat, I like meat - but I accept many of the intellectual arguments for not eating meat, or at the very least for eating less.

Reading your article made me think of this:

'Principles and values are all very fine ... if you can afford them'.

In this respect, and reading your article - you show you don't want to get bogged down with dogma, in every situation.

I think that's a good thing ...

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by aelle

I disagree with this sentiment.
You also can't learn without critical thought - taking every word of a mentor for gospel won't bring you many lessons, not any truly internalized lessons. This means that sometimes you will disagree with a teacher, and that's okay, and that doesn't mean you reject everything else they may teach you.

That said, it was definitely an overreaction of your part - the suggestion didn't deserve a huge scene, just a "thanks but no thanks."

I find it a bit of a cop-out to say that you can simply change your perception and make meat okay. At the end of the day, there is still a significant amount of animal suffering behind that piece of meat, no matter if you find it disgusting or delicious, no matter who hands it to you. You can decide that in a given situation, the benefit of eating meat outweighs the cost of this suffering... but it's still there.

I basically agree with this sentiment, especially the last part, however, I do see Agota's point in many ways. People that have earned your trust, have earned your trust. I don't know anyone I currently trust on an ethical/spiritual level to take that advice, and it's definitely possible to release dogmatism and attachment without actually doing something you've already logically assessed as causing unnecessary suffering.

Agota, how would you feel about moving this thread to Character & Contribution given it's mainly about the ethics of eating meat--not the health of it?

(PS/OT: Vodka increases comfort in cold weather, but for survival purposes alcohol actually makes you lose heat faster. You probably know this, but I thought I'd mention it in general since it's a common misconception.)

[Agota]

Mariana, that's a great idea, sorry, should have thought about that

I somehow automatically put the thread in health section since it's related with nutrition, but you're right that other section would be more appropriate

[ssandra]

People who have earned my trust will get more leverage then others. But I would never do something that goes against my values just because they say I should do it.

I would ask them why. I would really consider it (as opposed to someone I don't know or trust, I would just ignore those ), but I wouldn't automatically do it.

I am a meat eater, and I need it to stay grounded.

There are exactly 3 people in the world (at this moment) for whom I would consider doing a vegetarian trial if they would tell me I should, and could explain why. My husband, Angela and Rosine.

And although I would consider a trial... I wouldn't simply do it because they say so. Especially if it would go against my own values (not eating meat doesn't go against my values).

[Agota]

Teacher and friends are two different concepts

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Agota

Teacher and friends are two different concepts

The same and even moreso would go for a teacher...

I'm a pain in the ass to teach, I'll admit... But if something doesn't make sense to me, I'll ask for an explanation. If that explanation doesn't make sense to me i won't just accept it for the truth.

If someone would tell me; You need to eat meat to get more heat in your body, and I was a vegetarian for moral reasons, I'd ask them if there was another (non animal) way to do this.
If not; I'd decide (ME, not the teacher) what was more important to me. My morals around eating meat or my comfort and well being.

[alexplatups]

The problem with religions, or any type of cult following, is that there are
many beliefs and concepts one must live by - if one is to be a follower or
a true believer.

The problem with beliefs (which are concepts) is that they are NOT reality.

They are what we think reality SHOULD BE.

Reality IS only what you can accurately observe in the present moment.

...period.

The most effective approach is how an artist creates.

She knows exactly what she wants to bring into reality. (think painting)

She knows exactly what she has at the present moment. (think blank canvas)

She knows she must take action to go from where she is right now (blank
canvas) to where she wants to be in the future (painting, done and signed)
when she brings her vision of the painting into reality.

When you compare this approach to what you are doing Agota, you will
clearly see that you are mostly living in your head, moving beliefs and
concepts around, not really creating anything of value.

In other words, you are not bringing anything into reality, you are simply
hypnotyzed by your beliefs (concepts).

[alphamind]

Everything said about meat eaters aside, I lately feel more and more disgusted by the taste and the texture of meat (or the idea of eating it).

I wanna know what you guys think of eating fish? For some reason I am more tolerant to eating fish, but technically it is still a living organism being killed for consumption. Perhaps not as bad because of less torture before death?

[alexplatups]

Originally Posted by alphamind

Everything said about meat eaters aside, I lately feel more and more disgusted by the taste and the texture of meat (or the idea of eating it).

I wanna know what you guys think of eating fish? For some reason I am more tolerant to eating fish, but technically it is still a living organism being killed for consumption. Perhaps not as bad because of less torture before death?

As far as I'm concerned, a sentient being is a sentient being. With a cow, it
dies and will feed a 100 people. While to feed a 100 people a nice amount
of shrimp - imagine how many of the poor things must die

[Agota]

Originally Posted by ssandra

The same and even moreso would go for a teacher...

I'm a pain in the ass to teach, I'll admit... But if something doesn't make sense to me, I'll ask for an explanation. If that explanation doesn't make sense to me i won't just accept it for the truth.

If someone would tell me; You need to eat meat to get more heat in your body, and I was a vegetarian for moral reasons, I'd ask them if there was another (non animal) way to do this.
If not; I'd decide (ME, not the teacher) what was more important to me. My morals around eating meat or my comfort and well being.

I did ask why and I did ask if I can generate heat with something other than meat

Anyway, ultimately, you're always the one who is making a decision, since it was your choice to ask teacher to accept you as a student and you can get up and leave at any given moment. It's simply that as long as you choose to be a student, certain rules apply. Nobody can force you to do something without your consent. It's your choice to either follow general rules or leave

This was hard concept for me to grasp, however, since it took me a while to realize that no matter how strict my teacher would be, it's ultimately my choice to come to him, therefore it doesn't clashes with the concept of personal authority and responsibility for your own life.