Do you agree with the concept that persons should give back to life

[Ilikeindowem]

I think it is to some degree human nature to seek out justice. If anything, apart from smoothing social interaction, this is probably the reason we have laws. Is a desire for justice the reason why people think persons who do well should give something back to the world around them? Is it also a desire for equality or fair play?

[taylor]

People have a lot of weird social attitudes like that.

Take the law of reciprocity, where you believe that if someone does something nice to you, you should do something nice in return. Or that if someone does something bad to you, that you should do something bad in return. It really makes no logical sense necessarily, but just seems to be one of things in human nature.

Another one is jealousy, or hatred for successful people by unsuccessful people. This one makes more sense to me from a competitive point of view. If someone is successful, and you define your self worth through social status or in other words competition with them, then of course you want them to fail so you look better by comparison. Then people can end up sublimating this primitive desire with complex social theories like wealth distribution or fairness or some other mechanism to take away the special person's power.

Should people give back to life? I guess that depends on how you define your ethical systems and your related identity. If you are an egoist or individualist (centered on your individual body as yourself) I think you would be more hesitant to give than would a person who identifies like Steve Pavlina does for example, where he is part of the whole of humanity and is serving the whole organism.

I kind of see it like your ego structure is a big weight you carry around that is insane with fear and neediness at its core. When you let go some and subdue this psychological shackle, you feel more affinity with life itself and naturally want to give, not because it will make anything fair or that you're required to. But I also think people can feel a lot of social pressure to give, especially if you're successful just to be considered by society to be a "good person".

[Kali]

Hahahahaaa the legal system is populated by a bunch of narcissists and sociopaths. There is no truth in justice, just throw money at a problem and lie until you get caught. That's the rule of thumb when it comes to establishing and enforcing various laws.

Recently in the state where I live they made it legal for people to own handguns without permits. Yay. Also, they abolished the motorcycle helmet law. Meanwhile, teachers' pay was cut by about 10%. FML.

[Ne Cede Malis]

Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem

I think it is to some degree human nature to seek out justice. If anything, apart from smoothing social interaction, this is probably the reason we have laws. Is a desire for justice the reason why people think persons who do well should give something back to the world around them? Is it also a desire for equality or fair play?

I think human nature leans towards altruism (which is reassuring) - as long as the cost to ourselves isn't too high. Cost isn't just about money.

Whether people should want to give back - that's down to individual choice. And again, it's not just about money - it's possible to contribute in many different and valuable ways.

I'm not sure if you are implying money - when you say 'do well', but on the money front I think people's motivations will be different. You can't take it with you when you go - you could spend like crazy (see Taylor's post), you could give to charity, set up specific projects etc ... You may wish to leave it to your off spring or you may want to have a really good time!

I think the trick is to be thoughtful about your choices - altruistic or otherwise - then there's less chance of having significant regrets.

Ne Cede Malis

[wstein]

We have laws because following them benefits the majority. We break them because doing so benefits the few (hopefully us).

Justice is a human idea that there is a right and wrong that applies to everyone. The concept does not actually apply to reality.

Giving back to the world seems to come from several origins:

1) The have-nots hope that the haves will give them a break (helpful hand) so that they too can be haves. The idea is that given a chance we too can be a have.

2) There is a premise in society if you share in your time of plenty, others will share with you in your time of scarcity. Societies are generally built on this premise.

3) Another premise is that physical reality is a closed system, you cannot gain without taking. In order to balance the books you need to repay your good fortune.

-----------

Personally I think it’s very misguided. You don’t ‘owe’ anybody anything nor do they owe you. Obviously if you want something to continue, it might be a good idea to contribute to its continuation.

I believe more in being grateful for the good stuff you have and invest your resources (take action) on what is in alignment with you. Most likely what you have to give is not what was given to you.

[ZephyrusX]

Is it possible to define justice?

I think the legal system is better characterized by a conflict model where groups of people compete for different interests. Your opinion of a particular law really depends upon your own circumstances and perspective.

I also think it is erroneous to believe that the desire for equality and 'fairness' is universal across human populations. There are people in this world who do not believe that we ought to make the world more 'equal'. I forget what the theory is called, but basically they think that the world's poorest populations ought to just 'die off' and that our charity can be better spent else where.

Having said that, there are plenty of people who have a more egalitarian world view. I subscribed to a more social democratic political paradigm, but this was largely due to my upbringing. The only psychological or innate attribute that I may consider contributing to my sense of 'fairness' is human empathy. In other words, I value my security, self-esteem, happiness and self-actualization, but I can also recognize and imagine other human beings valuing these same attributes (although in different ways).

But then, why do some human beings seem to have more empathy than others? Even if empathy is a psychological, innate attribute of human beings, it is obviously influenced by social factors.

Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem

I think it is to some degree human nature to seek out justice. If anything, apart from smoothing social interaction, this is probably the reason we have laws. Is a desire for justice the reason why people think persons who do well should give something back to the world around them? Is it also a desire for equality or fair play?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Is it possible to define justice?

I think the legal system is better characterized by a conflict model where groups of people compete for different interests. Your opinion of a particular law really depends upon your own circumstances and perspective.

I also think it is erroneous to believe that the desire for equality and 'fairness' is universal across human populations. There are people in this world who do not believe that we ought to make the world more 'equal'. I forget what the theory is called, but basically they think that the world's poorest populations ought to just 'die off' and that our charity can be better spent else where.

Maybe you're talking about Social Darwinism.

I made a post with a similar mindset in a thread about schools today that apparently made multiple people "cringe" lol. I was saying that far too much money is invested in hopeless causes and not enough is invested in catalyzing the growth of people who are well off already. That's because it would seem wrong to help people who are already doing well because that's not fair. However, the tiny minority of leaders and innovators contribute so much more to the world than do the average and less than average. Doesn't it make sense to invest in the people who can potentially make the biggest positive impact?

The ideal of fairness just isn't a good one. I think it ultimately stems from jealousy and comparisons between others. "Mom, how come Tommy and Sarah get to have a bike and I don't?"

[ZephyrusX]

No, I'm thinking of a perspective from demographics, though I suspect it was influenced by Social Darwinism. The perspective borrows a term from the military where basically the wounded soldiers that were 'hopeless causes' were left to die so that the resources could be allocated towards the wounded who actually had a chance to live.

To answer your question, I suppose it would depend upon what the end goal of humanity is and whether there really is a 'hopeless cause'. What is a 'positve impact'? And is there a peak level of resources that one can receive before his/her 'positive impact' will no longer change with additional resources? Is it appropriate to conceptualize 'positive impacts' with the actions of individual people rather than groups of people?

I think the concept of fairness comes from the drive for integrity, respect and self-actualization. I want to live my life to its fullest and not have my opportunities abitrarly removed due to social indicators. Fairness, in my opinion, is the access to the facilitators for social mobility: namely universal health care, universal education, democracy and collective bargaining. At that point, what I make with my life is my own doing.

Originally Posted by taylor

Maybe you're talking about Social Darwinism.

I made a post with a similar mindset in a thread about schools today that apparently made multiple people "cringe" lol. I was saying that far too much money is invested in hopeless causes and not enough is invested in catalyzing the growth of people who are well off already. That's because it would seem wrong to help people who are already doing well because that's not fair. However, the tiny minority of leaders and innovators contribute so much more to the world than do the average and less than average. Doesn't it make sense to invest in the people who can potentially make the biggest positive impact?

The ideal of fairness just isn't a good one. I think it ultimately stems from jealousy and comparisons between others. "Mom, how come Tommy and Sarah get to have a bike and I don't?"

[Ilikeindowem]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Is it possible to define justice?

I think the legal system is better characterized by a conflict model where groups of people compete for different interests. Your opinion of a particular law really depends upon your own circumstances and perspective.

I also think it is erroneous to believe that the desire for equality and 'fairness' is universal across human populations. There are people in this world who do not believe that we ought to make the world more 'equal'. I forget what the theory is called, but basically they think that the world's poorest populations ought to just 'die off' and that our charity can be better spent else where.

Having said that, there are plenty of people who have a more egalitarian world view. I subscribed to a more social democratic political paradigm, but this was largely due to my upbringing. The only psychological or innate attribute that I may consider contributing to my sense of 'fairness' is human empathy. In other words, I value my security, self-esteem, happiness and self-actualization, but I can also recognize and imagine other human beings valuing these same attributes (although in different ways).

But then, why do some human beings seem to have more empathy than others? Even if empathy is a psychological, innate attribute of human beings, it is obviously influenced by social factors.

I never stated that justice was universal, and was just making an analogy.

That said, I think the idea that people should give back is simply based on envy, and envy is based on a notion of fairness.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Kali

Hahahahaaa the legal system is populated by a bunch of narcissists and sociopaths. There is no truth in justice, just throw money at a problem and lie until you get caught. That's the rule of thumb when it comes to establishing and enforcing various laws.

Lol... jaded a bit?

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Savage

Lol... jaded a bit?

they aren't my words, they are the words of a law professor and practicing attorney who has worked in the system for almost 30 years.

I take it you've never lived as a brown person in the deep south? They wouldn't let us vote in recent presidential elections, ya know.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Kali

they aren't my words, they are the words of a law professor and practicing attorney who has worked in the system for almost 30 years.

I take it you've never lived as a brown person in the deep south? They wouldn't let us vote in recent presidential elections, ya know.

How's that vibe working for you so far?

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Savage

How's that vibe working for you so far?

I can't really go into details on a public forum because online posts can be used in court now.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

No, I'm thinking of a perspective from demographics, though I suspect it was influenced by Social Darwinism. The perspective borrows a term from the military where basically the wounded soldiers that were 'hopeless causes' were left to die so that the resources could be allocated towards the wounded who actually had a chance to live.

Triage?

I agree it might be tough to define what is "positive impact". I meant relative to educational goals. It comes down to an ethical paradigm I guess. Do you give to the most needy, do you try to spread it evenly out, do you invest it where it will generate maximum yield. I'm siding with the maximum yield atm.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Kali

I can't really go into details on a public forum because online posts can be used in court now.

It was a question for private reflection.

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Savage

It was a question for private reflection.

I have been pondering that for a while now, and wrestling with the realities that I have been presented with. I have faith that at some point this will all make sense, but at this point it is hard to think clearly. I admit. I feel like my skin is being flayed off of my body centimeter by centimeter, if that tells you anything...

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Kali

I have been pondering that for a while now, and wrestling with the realities that I have been presented with. I have faith that at some point this will all make sense, but at this point it is hard to think clearly. I admit. I feel like my skin is being flayed off of my body centimeter by centimeter, if that tells you anything...

"I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain."

That reminds me of a song I look to when I need to ignite my fire and overcome what lies within: Keep Quiet

I've seen your face in the shadows,
I've seen your face in the places I wasn't meant to be
I've heard them whisper about you.
I've heard the men in the bars
and I've seen the women lock their doors at night
They say your eyes are on fire!
They say you'd kill a man for walking the wrong side of the line
But men, they say a lot of foolish things
and in the end the only words I can find to believe in are mine

They say

This city, she's been dead for years now... for years now
So death is not something that scares me... that scares me!
There's worse things than death here!

They told me...

Keep quiet!

I will not be told where to stand!
I will not be told what to say.
Not by man or machine,
Not by you,
not by anyone tonight!
You're gonna have to do better than fear!
You're gonna have to step out of the shadows and fight!
And when they see your face again,
They will know what it means
to have fear dragged out into the light
Drag it out!

So come on!
Come on!
Step into the light!

This city, she's been dead for years now... for years now
So death is not something that scares me... that scares me!

There's worse things
than death here
There's loss and there's silence and sadness

So come on,
come on,
just open your mouths and revive it