Your values or theirs?

[ssandra]

Do you live your life according to your values or other peoples actions?

I've noticed a lot of people say that they are honest people, but if someone lies to them suddenly they don't mind lying either...

Or they value integrity but only as long as other are treating them that way...


I always try to live my life according to my own values and not let my values be determined by other people's actions.

What is your opinion on this?

[spacecadetglow]

Interesting question.

I don't really think of it as "living by other people's values" when I do something that I wouldn't normally do. I think of it as keeping my values flexible for the situation.

Sometimes yeah, I have stooped to lower behavior in order to "match" the other person, but I do what works.

As an example, one of my bandmates has a tendency to talk foreeever, and to talk over everybody else. My usual policy is to let people speak before chiming in with what I have to say, I consider that to be in line with the basic value of respect, but with this guy... it won't work. He'll just start talking over you. So, I talk louder and more assertively, sometimes interrupting him if he interrupts me first. Talk about power struggle. It's the only thing that works, though!

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

As an example, one of my bandmates has a tendency to talk foreeever, and to talk over everybody else. My usual policy is to let people speak before chiming in with what I have to say, I consider that to be in line with the basic value of respect, but with this guy... it won't work. He'll just start talking over you. So, I talk louder and more assertively, sometimes interrupting him if he interrupts me first. Talk about power struggle. It's the only thing that works, though!

In that case would you say that your value of expressing yourself or being assertive is a higher value then your value of respect, or would you say that you are consciously not living by your value of respect because he doesn't?

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by ssandra

In that case would you say that your value of expressing yourself or being assertive is a higher value then your value of respect, or would you say that you are consciously not living by your value of respect because he doesn't?

Hmm good way to put it! I like the first one better.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Hmm good way to put it! I like the first one better.

I know you do But which one is it?

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I know you do But which one is it?

Well I can't say I've thought about it either way until this thread.

But I guess if I were to answer truthfully, I'd have to say that I'd feel like I was stooping to his level of disrespect by talking over him. Because when people do that to me, I consider it disrespectful. Something interesting to think about... maybe this will help me to stop feeling bad for being assertive sometimes. I don't always feel bad, but sometimes I do.

[Cado]

I live by the inverse golden rule: do unto others as they do unto you.

That's not to say I advocate mindlessly striking back; there's nothing gained in that. And there are exceptions-those I love and/or respect deserve a bit of grace, and there's some lines I won't cross simply on the basis of honor.

But let's say I'm dealing with a known liar. If I reward his dishonesty with integrity, I'm tying a hand behind my back because I'm restricted by a rule he isn't. There may be ways to counter him without lying and of course they'll be put to use if they're effective, but if they aren't I see it as giving him what he asked for. If someone's smart enough to lie but they aren't smart enough to realize others might do the same (if there's no compelling reason not to) then he was gonna screw himself sooner or later, I just happened to be the one on hand.

I think you could say, "don't throw pearls before swine" is my foremost value when dealing with others. There are exceptions to that as well, but only when the gains outweigh the time and energy put forth.

[taylor]

I think this thread is really about integrating your conscious values into every situation.

If you have a love as your top value, which most people say is theirs when asked, then what happens when someone threatens your financial security, or reputation for example? If your top value of love isn't integrated in this particular scenario then you are going to probably get upset and fight back. In that scenario your top value isn't love, it's your reputation and financial security. However, if your top value of love IS integrated then you will find some sort of loving solution, which may even result in the loss of your reputation or financial security. You value being loving over your reputation or financial security.

So the point is, just saying something is your top value doesn't make it true across the board. You have to consciously integrate it into every situation for that to be true. That's a big part of spiritual work in my mind: finding the conditions where you still act out of alignment with your conscious values.

If you are consciously living your values then you are also going to be very proactive. You will be influencing your environment instead of reacting to it, conforming to whatever it's values happen to be. You are an unshakable stubborn force that lives these certain values without exception, whatever those values are.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Cado

I live by the inverse golden rule: do unto others as they do unto you.

I live by the converse golden rule (I just made that up ):

Treat others as if they are me.

That works really well for me because I do not set up the expectation that the golden rule does (to treat others as I wish to be treated) nor am I reacting to how they are behaving. Thus I have no expectation for how the other person is to treat me or how fair/unfair things are when the other person does not reciprocate. I just pretend like everybody is an alternate reality version of myself and treat them according to my values.

I came up with this one day when I realized that everybody really could be an alternate version of me. I mean, each person is what I could be like if I had lived under their circumstances and experiences. It's kind of deep to think about, but it makes a world of sense to me.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Cado

I live by the inverse golden rule: do unto others as they do unto you.

Also called Tit for Tat, the winning strategy in the Prisoner's Dilemma.

[Ilikeindowem]

I do what I want in life, and ensure that I get what I desire. This is my sole life motivation.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by James81

I live by the converse golden rule (I just made that up ):

Treat others as if they are me.

What's funny is it works out about the same. After all, I don't expect preferential treatment, and I don't really think of it as something I made up. It's more of a, "this is how things tend to be so I'll consciously work with it instead of imposing unnecessary restrictions on myself." So I understand that if I'm a prick I'm going to be treated like one. I should be treated like one. I don't learn anything when people don't call me on my **** and nothing speaks louder than action.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Do you live your life according to your values or other peoples actions?

Probably some of both.

[SatvikBeri]

Naturally I try to live my life according to my values, but it's unrealistic to say that I'm not affected by others.

What I do to keep myself from straying too far is:
1. Keep my main values in a written list and review them occasionally
2. Spend a lot of time around communities that espouse my core values or values I would like to have

It's hard. It's still very easy for me to be dramatically affected by others' actions and temporarily act outside of congruence with my own values. But I've gotten much better at it, and the two strategies above have really helped.

[Agota]

When my boyfriend broke up with me I was extremely angry. Then, I started to think about my reactions. When he treats me well, I love him. When he treats me bad, I'm very angry on him. What's the difference between me and a homeless dog then? You give homeless dog food, dog loves you. You kick the dog, dog hates you. As a Buddhist, shouldn't I be more conscious than that?

I'm thinking about this a lot nowadays

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Agota

When my boyfriend broke up with me I was extremely angry. Then, I started to think about my reactions. When he treats me well, I love him. When he treats me bad, I'm very angry on him. What's the difference between me and a homeless dog then? You give homeless dog food, dog loves you. You kick the dog, dog hates you. As a Buddhist, shouldn't I be more conscious than that?

I'm thinking about this a lot nowadays

You are more conscious so long as you're aware and use it to your advantage instead of being led around on a leash.

Though really we aren't better than dogs-we're animals just like they are. Animals with far greater potential, but animals nonetheless. I find there are immense benefits in exploring that aspect of our nature as it connects to something primal which is at once lower than the intellect and far more advanced.

So for me the question is never is this right or wrong or should I let myself feel the way I do, it's what serves me in this moment? And whatever the answer is that's what I feed.

[codenamesmiley]

I have to admit that I have spent most of my life in a "re-active" state..but in the past 8 months or so I have taken a quantum leap toward understanding that reaching for outer human validation and acceptance over following my own heart, has been extremely detrimental to my being.

I will be 40 this November, and I am just now beginning to realize the value of sticking to my truth and my gut over concern for how another may perceive me otherwise.

I do not believe in being equally deceptive with those who are deceptive with me..As I learn discernment, I am also realizing the value of knowing the difference between when someone is lying to me or simply lying to self still. This was a major milestone for me in calibrating my sensitivity. It has allowed me to help some that I may have kicked out of my reality in the past simply because of the deception energy that I could feel and smell about a conversation.

Those who are just blatantly deceptive regardless, and seemingly care nothing but what they wish to manipulate..well I release them with love and thank them for the experience and move on. (and deny them access back into my personal life..and love them from a distance). This may not be the best approach..but it is my approach and it seems to work wonders in my personal situation. I can't say what is best for anyone else..I am simply sharing my own experience in that regard.

Great topic, Sandra!

Love and peace all,
Rebecca

[Sayde]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Do you live your life according to your values or other peoples actions?

I've noticed a lot of people say that they are honest people, but if someone lies to them suddenly they don't mind lying either...

About the example you gave us: Doing the same thing someone did to you is acceptable in some cases. For ex: someone played you out, making you think you did the right choice. In this case it's fun to pretend as if nothing happened, let that person still trust you and create a plan to make him lose in the end. It's just like with attackers.. when one tries to hurt you and you somehow manage to protect yourself by injuring him you either: kill him or let him alive knowing he'll come back for revenge one day

Now regarding the topic: I live my life according to my own values. I believe it's stupid trying to satisfy others or even care what they think. When someone tries to forcefully implement his values in me that person suddenly dissappears from my world. What I try most is to stay loyal to my soul by not being a hypocrite. I make my words match with my actions and not make myself contradictory like others do.

[faithsdaddy]

I have my own values, which I mostly live by. But... one of my values is flexibility. Pretty much anything about me is flexible, in the right situation. This is something I've thought about a bit over the years. I think values are a wonderful human ideal, but they require us to make a complete decision, based on incomplete information.

Anyone seen the awful film 'Unthinkable'? I've just watched it. One of the questions the viewer may ask themselves is, 'can you justify torture, if it saves enough people'? Personally, I think you can reasonably justify a yes or a no answer.

As for other peoples values... well, I try to gauge them, so that I know how to react to their words and deeds. You could almost say I tweek my levels in response to them.

A simple example; I'm a friendly guy. If any of you met me, you wouldn't feel the least bit intimidated about approaching me. The other day, I had to speak with a small girl. She was unsure of what to say. I was as gentle as I could be. I spoke softly, I smiled, turned to the side- everything I could think of to be gentle and unthreatening. Another time, I pulled up alongside a work colleague who was argueing with someone and the situation was about to become violent. I was agressive, spiteful and I was thinking of hitting him at the first hint of provocation- and made sure he picked up on that.

Two extremes. Both by me, in response to two different situations.

But looked at another way, I'm about a 1 or 2 for peer group/ crowd mentality.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Sayde

It's just like with attackers.. when one tries to hurt you and you somehow manage to protect yourself by injuring him you either: kill him or let him alive knowing he'll come back for revenge one day

In this case I would incapacitate my attackers, but not kick them when they are down for example.

My will to live is a higher value then not hurting others, so if it would come to a choice between them or me, I'd choose me.

But if it was "just a fight" (I've actually never been in a fight ), and I could protect myself by not hurting them, that's what I'd choose.


Same thing what you said about someone playing you. I value honest interactions very much. So I wouldn't play them, even if I would find out they were playing me. I'd be hurt probably, and I'd kick them out of my life, but I wouldn't do to them what they did to me, just because they did it to me, if it would go against my values.

[Weena]

On the topic of lying: I tell the truth, but if I know someone lies to my face, I have no trouble returning the favour to them... Now on other values, if someone is hurtful, I'll tell them they are or I'll ignore them for a while. I won't try to be hurtful, I don't see a point in this.

to sum up: your question can not be answered all black or white from my end

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Weena

to sum up: your question can not be answered all black or white from my end

I don't think it can be answered all black or white from anyone's end That's what makes it a fun thing to discuss!!

What is the difference for you that you are willing to lie to someone who lied to you, but not willing to hurt someone when they hurt you?

[Somnium Dico]

Originally Posted by Agota

When my boyfriend broke up with me I was extremely angry. Then, I started to think about my reactions. When he treats me well, I love him. When he treats me bad, I'm very angry on him. What's the difference between me and a homeless dog then? You give homeless dog food, dog loves you. You kick the dog, dog hates you. As a Buddhist, shouldn't I be more conscious than that?

I'm thinking about this a lot nowadays

It's definitely a quandary, but think of it this way: if you are treated well, should positive emotion not be the outcome and, therefor, affection towards the person treating you well? What if you were to respond with aggression and disdain when treated well? A few things would be likely to happen:

1.) The favorable treatment you've been receiving would be likely to end.
2.) The other person would become likely to lash back at you in response to the negative treatment.

A little black-and-white, I know, but what I'm getting at is we react to certain treatment based on human instinct of how we want a situation to play out. I don't even think it's about morality at that point, just simple human emotion. After all, if someone were to treat me badly, I would certainly not respond with a hug and a smile.

As for the OP, my values happen to coincide with both sides of the argument. My values are firmly placed in equal treatment; to quote Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly, "If someone tries to kill you, you kill 'em right back." I do have my own idea of integrity, and when it comes to lies, I actually prefer to be honest to the point of bluntness.

However, if it's clear I'm being lied to or manipulated, by my own standards I'd have to respond in kind. Just...you know, better than they are.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I don't think it can be answered all black or white from anyone's end That's what makes it a fun thing to discuss!!

What is the difference for you that you are willing to lie to someone who lied to you, but not willing to hurt someone when they hurt you?

Being hurtful is somewhat of a violent thing (no matter if it is mental or physical), and I'm a fairly peaceful person. Lying is not that hurtful to me anymore (used to get me incredibly mad)(I don't take it personally now... it just shows me who I can trust and who I cannot trust).

[SunnyDays]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Do you live your life according to your values or other peoples actions?

I always try to live my life according to my own values and not let my values be determined by other people's actions.

What is your opinion on this?

I live my life to my beat and my values ,always have and I have to admit to this day its not always been a welcomed trait..

I respect other peoples values but I speak out when I feel the need to and I do not feel the need to oblige to other peoples opinion of me - never did .I respect people for what they are and I do expect the same respect from others not to try to interfere with my opinions and life

[Ilikeindowem]

People are inconsistent and hypocrites, this is no new news.

[rodav]

I have learned to live my life on my own terms, my own values, my own beliefs. It's so much easier that way.

Respect is not free; it is earned. I cannot respect someone who I know is dishonest, example, corrupt public officials.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Ilikeindowem

People are inconsistent and hypocrites

are you?

[rei]

Live by my own values, a vast majority of the time. I won't say ALL the time because I don't remember things in the past with enough detail to assert that much certainty.

Here's an example. I know a few nonsmokers who have said it was fine to smoke in their house or their car. I typically refuse to do it. I don't like the idea that they will bend the rules for me, and I don't like the idea that I would be following different rules from the ones I use for myself.

Such as, no indoor smoking on personal property. I don't do it on my own property so I am really very uncomfortable doing it on someone else's property. It would take some very special circumstances to break this preference, and someone simply allowing it doesn't count as that.

Occasionally I might do something to match the value-expression around me, like if I'm around a group that shows affection through pretending to be mean to each other I'll go along with that dynamic, but generally it's my values and others are in charge of theirs, and I don't feel comfortable shifting to act based on others' values.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by rei

Here's an example. I know a few nonsmokers who have said it was fine to smoke in their house or their car. I typically refuse to do it. I don't like the idea that they will bend the rules for me, and I don't like the idea that I would be following different rules from the ones I use for myself.

Such as, no indoor smoking on personal property. I don't do it on my own property so I am really very uncomfortable doing it on someone else's property. It would take some very special circumstances to break this preference, and someone simply allowing it doesn't count as that.

I have the same rule. No smoking inside anywhere, or even public places for that matter (because I have kids inside my house and in public places I do not appreciate when I go in town to walk past a smoker if I'm holding my baby and she gets a whiff of it). Crazy uh? I'm a weird smoker. It just means you value respect though, doesn't it? Or politeness. Maybe you are matching their politeness value on some level (they want to be polite and make you feel at home, and you want to be polite and not making their place stinky... ).