How do you justify having nice things?

[taylor]

I'm not preaching here. I'm curious how you personally justify buying nice things like a new car, new clothes, big house, nice furniture, etc.

My question is because I don't know if I can do it these days. I bought a fancy computer but that was back in high school and I'm still using it years after college. I shop at thrift stores and drive a 10+ year old car that runs fine. If I spend more than necessary for basic functioning I feel like I'm being wasteful and that my financial resources could go towards investment in something that would help the world. Such as micro loans, hunger and health efforts, etc.

What do you think about this topic, please?

[faithsdaddy]

Being fairly poor, I seek value in whatever I buy. In practice, it means I look to get a lot for my money. When I got my car, I got a large Audi, but got one with some electrical faults and other problems. It cost under half what it normally would (I fixed the faults myself). So, I got a luxury motor, but because of the price I paid, it was cheaper than a small/ basic car.

I do just treat myself- such as a meal, Costa coffee, etc. But I'm not frivolous. Is this what you meant?

[Andrew Gubb]

So how much do you give to these charities and so on? What charities do you support?

I'm only just starting to get my head above water with money so I'm still not sure about my answer to these questions. Somehow I feel that I should be able to live well and give well too. Though I do agree that materialism is very overrated, and most things that money can buy - besides the basics - don't do that much to increase happiness beyond a certain level.

I feel like I want to think big. I shouldn't try to earn just enough. For the richest people in the world - who own most of the world's wealth - the difference between living on a "basic functioning" level and living a bit better are small. For instance, for me basic functioning is about 1000€ a month. Living well would be 2000€ a month on average (considering getting some nice clothes, going on trips, getting training in different disciplines, and so on). If I were to earn 10,000€ a month, or even 100,000€ a month, an extra 1000€ for me wouldn't make much difference. It's all about perspective. (And I don't think money is the way I can most help this world, either).

I also think for the short term that I want to invest in having a sound financial base for me. Somehow, it doesn't feel safe for me not to have a way of living if I'm not working. What if I want to slow down the pace a little? What if I feel the need to spend a year working more on myself than for others? (So I could later give back even more). Finally, what's going to happen if I ever choose to retire?

I don't like my actions being determined by the need for money so I feel that within my needs is a way of decoupling my actions from my earning: that is, passive income, or at least a combination of passive income and savings maybe. If I could meet my basic needs on just passive income I feel I'd be in a very strong position to be helping out. And any excess money can, of course, be resiphoned into philanthropic pursuits.

[taylor]

I was thinking more the expensive things like new cars, fancy tv, big house, etc. You seem pretty thrifty Mr. Daddy based on that post. I guess it's all a matter of degree but even like a nice meal now, part of me thinks it's wasteful because the extra 5 or 10 bucks could buy a mosquito net or feed someone else. Like I imagine that I'm killing little Kitambi because I wanted to get a pizza the other night.

Where do we draw the line? Part of me thinks I should live on the least amount reasonably possible to free up my finances for investments.

[veloci]

I couldn't care less about what I have ever since I decided to cultivate happiness from within. As long as I have the basic necessity, I don't have the desire or want for more gadgets, goodies, etc. I will simply save the money for whenever an emergency calls for it, trips to wherever, donating it to charity, etc.

The name of the game for me is being minimalistic and racking up $$$ in the bank for other purposes.

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by taylor

I was thinking more the expensive things like new cars, fancy tv, big house, etc. You seem pretty thrifty Mr. Daddy based on that post. I guess it's all a matter of degree but even like a nice meal now, part of me thinks it's wasteful because the extra 5 or 10 bucks could buy a mosquito net or feed someone else. Like I imagine that I'm killing little Kitambi because I wanted to get a pizza the other night.

Where do we draw the line? Part of me thinks I should live on the least amount reasonably possible to free up my finances for investments.

I have spent unwisely in the past, so mine is the voice of experience (or I'm an old sod , whatever you prefer).

Do something now, if it would ease your conscience. I remember reading about a couple who organise loans for 3rd world countries- helping farmers buy land- that sort of thing. Maybe that might interest you? That's real, not the vast nothingness that is organised charity. What about doing some volunteer work? That might ease your troubled mind- lighten your conscience, that you're doing your bit?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

So how much do you give to these charities and so on? What charities do you support?

Not more than a tithe. Right now all I donate to is Kiva and a tiny bit to other things. In the past it's varied. Most of my money goes to investments for my own security later on. I'm young atm. Perhaps later I will have enough to change the %'s.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I also think for the short term that I want to invest in having a sound financial base for me. Somehow, it doesn't feel safe for me not to have a way of living if I'm not working. What if I want to slow down the pace a little? What if I feel the need to spend a year working more on myself than for others? (So I could later give back even more). Finally, what's going to happen if I ever choose to retire?

I don't like my actions being determined by the need for money so I feel that within my needs is a way of decoupling my actions from my earning: that is, passive income, or at least a combination of passive income and savings maybe. If I could meet my basic needs on just passive income I feel I'd be in a very strong position to be helping out. And any excess money can, of course, be resiphoned into philanthropic pursuits.

That's great if you can make it work. I had a passive income stream, but it quit being financially viable eventually.

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

I have spent unwisely in the past, so mine is the voice of experience (or I'm an old sod , whatever you prefer).

Do something now, if it would ease your conscience. I remember reading about a couple who organise loans for 3rd world countries- helping farmers buy land- that sort of thing. Maybe that might interest you? That's real, not the vast nothingness that is organised charity. What about doing some volunteer work? That might ease your troubled mind- lighten your conscience, that you're doing your bit?

That's not a bad idea. I was considering this the other day since I'm currently doing zero charity work.

[spacecadetglow]

Why does it need to be justified? Sounds like you're putting pressure on yourself to be a martyr or something.

I like quality things. Food, clothes, whatever. I'm not exactly loaded but I do take care of myself, because it makes me feel good.

I guess I've never felt guilty over making myself feel good, is what it comes down to. When I feel good, the people around me feel good, and so I'm doing my duty to help the world.

No but really, I'm an educator. I *do* devote my life to helping other people, so you know what, if I want to spend my paycheck on a nice meal out, I deserve that.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Why does it need to be justified? Sounds like you're putting pressure on yourself to be a martyr or something.

This avatar doesn't help eh?

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

No but really, I'm an educator. I *do* devote my life to helping other people, so you know what, if I want to spend my paycheck on a nice meal out, I deserve that.

Interesting. I asked my dad this question last week and he feels the same way as you.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by taylor

Where do we draw the line? Part of me thinks I should live on the least amount reasonably possible to free up my finances for investments.

I do think that Westerners can contributely meaningfully to the alleviation of global poverty and marginalization by donating to charity. But at the same time, I recognize that global states also have a responsibility to correct the structural causes of poverty. I don't feel 100% responsible for correcting the world's problems by donating any spare time or money I happen to have.

The primary reason why I want to donate my time or money is that I value the human experience. I want to give someone else the chance not only to live a full lifespan, but also the opportunity to choose how they are going to live that life. But I am a human being too. Part of celebrating the human experience is focussing on the quality of my life and living it the way I want to. I certainly don't think that an over-reliance upon commodification will bring happiness to my life. There is so much more to happiness then the things we buy. But the things we buy can give us an opportunity to explore, to learn, to have pleasure, to have fun, to be creative, and to give expression to who we are. The things we buy are an extension of our self.

I want to live my life empowering the lives of others, but in doing so, I don't want to sacrifice my own quest for happiness and meaning.

[spacecadetglow]

Can't rep you again Zephy, but I agree totally.

If you want to get really tripped out on this, taylor (and I know you're up for that sort of thing otherwise I wouldn't bring it up ) but have you considered that the guilt you feel is just as, if not more, self-indulgent than spending your money on nice things for yourself? It's a different sort of self-indulgence, that of the egoic rather than physical kind, but still.

What do you do? Do you have a job which allows you to make a meaningful contribution to the world? Do you have to be helping poor and destitute people in order to be satisfied? If so, why?

[ZephyrusX]

Here is just a random thought that popped into my head when I was writing. Are people who empower the lives of other while not sacrificing their own happiness and meaning more loving of humanity than 'martyrs'? It seems to me that the stereotypical 'martyr' is denying the very thing that he/she professes to love; his/her own humanity. Am I suppose to really like Jesus because he sacrificed his life for human beings (cause he loved us so much)? I think I would prefer to see a Jesus who lives empowering other people without sacrificing him self. That seems like a more powerful image.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Here is just a random thought that popped into my head when I was writing. Are people who empower the lives of other while not sacrificing their own happiness and meaning more loving of humanity than 'martyrs'? It seems to me that the stereotypical 'martyr' is denying the very thing that he/she professes to love; his/her own humanity. Am I suppose to really like Jesus because he sacrificed his life for human beings (cause he loved us so much)? I think I would prefer to see a Jesus who lives empowering other people without sacrificing him self. That seems like a more powerful image.

Yeah, absolutely. I think you have to take care of yourself in order to take care of others properly. Like the warning signs you see in airplanes: secure your own life vest before helping someone else.

I've just never felt guilty about buying myself quality items. I do feel guilty when I'm spending money I haven't exactly earned, though (like student loan money). That's more bothersome to me than buying nice things.

Your stance seems a bit rigid, taylor. "I must help these people, it is my duty as a privileged westerner!" It's fine to be altruistic, but don't beat yourself up over it, that's not altruistic at all. If your goal is compassion make sure you have that compassion for yourself, too.

If you don't actually want to purchase nice things, no one's making you, either. Do what works for you.

[taylor]

Eating at a nice restaurant. That's fine, I enjoy it, but the difference between that and making myself a sandwich is negligible to me. It's not like I'm flogging myself for being a bad sinner here. However, just that little bit of money saved by staying in could make a bigger difference in the third world due to currency value discrepancies. Since money is a scare resource I have to make a decision between my own pleasure and someone else's. Depending on the fund that could also involve their health or survival. My intention is for happiness for myself AND them, but on a resource level it doesn't work that way. It's one or the other.

I was just asking how you personally justify choosing the evil terrible selfish sinful option.

I'm not trying to preach an agenda or make myself out as a martyr. I live comfortably. I don't think giving up nice things causes any unhappiness does it? Isn't the old cliche that money doesn't buy happiness true? Behind the smoke and mirrors it's just stimulation and social status. Heck, with internet access I have access to infinite free stimulation anyway.

I'm trying to make a conscious ethical decision here. So I'm curious how you justify it personally if you do because I haven't found a reason yet that seems ethical to me. Maybe I'm overlooking something or maybe I'm not and this really is the way I should live. This feels a bit to me like Steve's issue with eating animal products. It's accepted by the culture as okay and reasonable, but when I stop and think about it, it doesn't seem quite right just for the sake of my own pleasure. What seems reasonable in one light seems unreasonable in another.

So far the answers I seem to be getting: No one advocates lavish consumerist lifestyle and everyone seems to advocate contributing to others. But some nice things are deserved as rewards after contributing to society, perhaps through our career. We also don't want to sacrifice our own happiness in the process of helping others. This decision also might not need to be justified in the first place. And I must have a guilty conscience to even ask the question.

[spacecadetglow]

I wasn't trying to ASS-u-me. It just seems like there's an implicit judgment or negative feeling associated, when you frame the question "how do you justify it?" Like there could be no good reason to ever spend money on yourself.

I see what you mean now, though. I suppose if it floats your boat, eat sandwiches and save the poor! You don't need to justify it if you don't want to spend money on nice things in the first place. Figure out a way to make sure those resources go to someone else.

[Ilikeindowem]

My own thinking is that whatever in life I get. I also think that it's a failing to try and equalise life and feel "guilty" for having too much, which in my mind is an Eastern belief. It's hypocritical for Easterners to presume this, when Eastern philosophy often preaches that life is suffering.

[Ne Cede Malis]

Originally Posted by taylor

I'm not preaching here. I'm curious how you personally justify buying nice things like a new car, new clothes, big house, nice furniture, etc.

My question is because I don't know if I can do it these days. I bought a fancy computer but that was back in high school and I'm still using it years after college. I shop at thrift stores and drive a 10+ year old car that runs fine. If I spend more than necessary for basic functioning I feel like I'm being wasteful and that my financial resources could go towards investment in something that would help the world. Such as micro loans, hunger and health efforts, etc.

What do you think about this topic, please?

Hi Taylor (quick quote from 'that' film Fight Club): 'Stuff you own ends up owning you ...

I don't get modern consumerism myself. If we earn or acquire more money - we just find more ways of spending it. I'm not anti-possessions - but where do you draw the line? When is it necessary to upgrade them? How much is too much?

I'm a big believer in money being used constructively, but I wonder if the wheels of the economy could be better greased?

Complete this phrase:

In the land of the free, the consumer is ..... ?

I don't think people should feel 'bad' about their spending, but it would be nice if we all questioned our habits sometimes. Shopaholics get their quick fix, discover it didn't last very long - and so embark on the next spree ...

Sometimes I think we spend as a kind of psychological treat - I've earnt it so why shouldn't I have it? Again, that's okay.

Choices ... choices ... choices ...

That's what money gives you. I want to start making more imaginative choices in the ways I spend (or don't spend it).

Ne Cede Malis

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by taylor

I bought a fancy computer but that was back in high school and I'm still using it years after college. I shop at thrift stores and drive a 10+ year old car that runs fine.

I tend to live simply in most of areas of my life, which enables me to spend more when it matters to me. Living below my means, saving, taking care of what I have, and buying quality when it matters with cash has allowed me to have things that most people in my financial demographic may not think they can afford, while they go on spending their money on disposable items like nice root beer.

6 months to a year of $5 four packs of root beer equals a refurbished Nikon DSLR or a good lens. My friends drink their nice root beer, while I have nice camera gear, and drink loose leaf tea or water.

I save more than friends that make much more than I do, and when I finish school my goal will be to live on ~half my net income, which would still be 50%+ more than I make now, and with conservative investing guidelines should let me retire well after 10-15 years without a drop in income, while principal would continue to grow, barring too many disasters coming up along the way.

I give small amounts to causes that matter to me, and hope to give more as my income grows, but I don't see a need to feel bad for not sacrificing myself for some greater good in this instant. I'll be of more use long term if I take care of myself. Helping people is part of what I do in my daily life anyhow, whether at work or simply going about my day, not just by contributing cash and hoping someone else will do good with it.

[wstein]

Having nice things is not about how much money you spend (or don’t spend). Nice is about quality. A simple carved wooden toy or piece of art can be nice. There is a separate possible guilt issue if your nice things come at great expense to others or the environment (you are an exploiter).

Having nice things is about feeling you are worthy. This is a self image issue. When you have a positive self image, you are able to accept that you deserve nice things. This is not to be confused with deserving in the sense that the world owes you.

I have a positive self image and value quality. I take care of me stuff for its lifetime and am not generally wasteful.

[truewinner]

There is nothing wrong with buying nice stuff for yourself if you worked hard to earn it. I agree that we should help those in need, but always giving to others can hurt them more than help them. For example, people who stay on unemployment because it is easier for them instead of getting a job, or homeless people who earn more begging than if they were to get a part time job.

In all I think that there is a huge misconception about money and the purpose of it. Money is a way of allocating resources. Instead of deciding who gets what based on who got there first, the color of your skin, gender, or how strong you are we decide how people get things through money. Now I am not saying the system is perfect, but when done fairly those who work hard and are disciplined will end up with the opportunity to obtain resources.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by wstein

Having nice things is about feeling you are worthy. This is a self image issue. When you have a positive self image, you are able to accept that you deserve nice things. This is not to be confused with deserving in the sense that the world owes you.

Interesting, I thought having nice things was a result of having a POOR self image. I.e. There's a bit of insecurity about who I am and I want to buy the "right stuff" so I'll be successful, happy, enhanced. I guess it doesn't have to be that way, but it seems like that's going on to some degree subconsciously in almost everyone I come into contact with in my life. Marketing + Group Think is a powerful combo that even a weirdo like myself has repeatedly fallen under the spell of.

Originally Posted by truewinner

I agree that we should help those in need, but always giving to others can hurt them more than help them.

I agree with you there. I'm not a fan of any system that doesn't utilize meritocratic incentivization (say that 10 times fast). On Kiva I give to third-world female entrepreneurs exclusively because they have the best statistical track record for using that money productively, instead of just consuming it. I think that's a great charity tactic, but also some people are in such bad spots that they have no option but to get a hand out. Children, the sick, starving, etc.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by taylor

Interesting, I thought having nice things was a result of having a POOR self image. I.e. There's a bit of insecurity about who I am and I want to buy the "right stuff" so I'll be successful, happy, enhanced. I guess it doesn't have to be that way, but it seems like that's going on to some degree subconsciously in almost everyone I come into contact with in my life. Marketing + Group Think is a powerful combo that even a weirdo like myself has repeatedly fallen under the spell of.

Oooh, now I get what you're asking. It's more about the "look at me" part of consumerism, yes?

My parents had enough money to buy new cars, but they never did. We always had used cars, but very good ones. My folks didn't splash out on top-of-the-line stuff because they didn't need to impress anyone. However, because they could afford good things, we sometimes had them. A nice home (not too big, just big enough) in a good neighborhood, a vacation every summer, cars to get around in. How could they justify it? It was available, they could afford it, and they wanted their children to be safe and happy.

My kids have grown up with second-hand clothes, toys, books, etc. because I've been a single mother for most of their childhood. I did what I could to get nice things for them so they could be comfortable, but again, I didn't feel the need to impress anyone with flashy stuff. Sometimes it's been hard on them not to fit in with their peers, but since leaving school to homeschool, it hasn't mattered at all.

[taylor]

I'm getting a message from my Inner Guidance which is saying that my life itself must become the gift to the world, and that this analysis and attempt to make a definite decision is a defense against trusting Spirit with the details of giving in the moment.

My left brain does not like this answer.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by taylor

I'm getting a message from my Inner Guidance which is saying that my life itself must become the gift to the world, and that this analysis and attempt to make a definite decision is a defense against trusting Spirit with the details of giving in the moment.

My left brain does not like this answer.

LOL! Yes, that sounds about right.

Trusting Spirit with the details can feel a lot light flying out an open window without knowing where you're going... but in fact, you do.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

Oooh, now I get what you're asking. It's more about the "look at me" part of consumerism, yes?

Well, that's a big part of it, but not all. The question was also a matter of degree to me. What is the ethical choice? Is that the bare minimum for survival? The minimum for a reasonably comfortable living situation? The minimum for a very comfortable middle class living situation? The minimum for an upper class situation with lots of very nice things, etc.

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

LOL! Yes, that sounds about right.

Trusting Spirit with the details can feel a lot light flying out an open window without knowing where you're going... but in fact, you do.

Do I? Doesn't feel like it! "Peace that surpasseth understanding." I guess.

[jamesm]

first i dont have to justify it... if someone ask why i want it or have it i tell them "I wanted it" or "I liked it" that is all that matters.

[elucidate]

I don't think feeling bad or guilty for having more than others is helping them...do you?

I used to feel bad and went the whole minimalist way, and that was freeing to a degree, but then I came to realise that it isn't helping poor people around the world that I be poor and not give myself nice things, it just adds to the suffering and scarcity mentality of the world.

Making as much money as possible will place me in a position to do what I want and contribute money towards projects I believe in that help others, like homeless shelters, which there are not enough of, and environmental projects already in action in my town.

Enjoying material things in life is what helps make my life more enjoyable. I don't think me enjoying myself less will help anyone, and I really enjoy the fine things in life without feeling the need to be seen by others for it...good food, soft cheeses, nice wine, fun clothes, as well as just scavenging for abandoned canvases or wood panels to paint...even hubcaps that have flown off car tyres I got into at one stage, so I can be a bum and live like a queen at the same time.

[Andrew Brunelle]

The American doctrine is, "I work hard, so I deserve these nice things." There is a possession fetish in many of the affluent nations. Many of the citizens of these nations are bought off with silly gadgets while the super-rich make off with all the land, the money, and the power. What those in power are doing are creating manufactured needs and distractions so that they can make off with all your money.

If you look at is as you are buying from corporations that don't care about you, then you'll definitely curb your spending. I've managed to save close to $15k in less than 2 years paying rent and buying food just by not buying things I don't need and trying the best I can to save money. I'm working in a job that nets roughly $20k a year, which isn't much, but being super frugal helps. I drive a nice car, but it is 11 years old and has around 70,000 miles on it. I paid $2000 for it 4 years ago. I owned a laptop for 5 years before it crashed and have owned this one for 2.5 years. I've never had a problem with it. It cost me less than $600 when I bought it with 4GB memory and over 150GB storage space.

Owning "nice" things and owning high quality things are better than owning cheap things that are going to break down. If you buy something that is built to last, you are definitely saving money in the long run and you are lessening the money that the corporations are going to get from you. Oh, and I don't own a cell phone, just a Tracfone, which I renew every year for 60 minutes and about a year and 3 months of service. $70 a year is not a bad cell phone payment. And I only use it on rare occasions, like if my car breaks down or if I need to...well, I never really use it. Cell phones are but a manufactured need that further indentures the middle and lower classes into another contract most of them cannot afford.

I just thought I'd put my two cents in on this, as I believe frugality and my living example can shed some light on how much money most people spend and how unnecessary it is in most cases. A want and a need are two different things, and you can be totally happy without the latest gizmos and gadgets, so I really don't see the point in buying most of them.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I don't think feeling bad or guilty for having more than others is helping them...do you?

Making as much money as possible will place me in a position to do what I want and contribute money towards projects I believe in that help others, like homeless shelters, which there are not enough of, and environmental projects already in action in my town.

Enjoying material things in life is what helps make my life more enjoyable. I don't think me enjoying myself less will help anyone, and I really enjoy the fine things in life without feeling the need to be seen by others for it...good food, soft cheeses, nice wine, fun clothes, as well as just scavenging for abandoned canvases or wood panels to paint...even hubcaps that have flown off car tyres I got into at one stage, so I can be a bum and live like a queen at the same time.

I really agree with this.

My question is have you thought where are your feelings of guilt coming from? Is it because you don't really have enough money and therefore you feel guilty when you spend it? Or is it because your social circle is filled with people who believe that spending money on nice things is selfish? Or is it something you inherited from your parents? Understanding where these feelings are coming from might help you to get rid of them and replace them with something more healthy.

It seems to me that you have a hard time with the idea that someone can buy nice things for their own personal pleasure, not because they want to show off. Where did you get the idea that buying nice things is about showing off? It's very popular way of thinking, but I think it has envy at it's core. People are quick to say that guy who's riding a Lamborghini must not be very gifted downstairs and clearly has self-esteem problems, but can it be that dude simply likes nice cars? The reason people think this way, however, is their own envy and their own need to show off, which they project on everyone else. People can buy nice things simply because they enjoy them, not because they want to show off. That means that your own desire to buy something nice is not necesarilly related with the desire to show off. It might be, however. Only you know the real situation.

Also, have you considered increasing your income? I mean, once you make a lot of money you can help a lot more people than you would by donating 10$ instead of buying pizza. Have you thought about that?

Meanwhile, have you considered donating a fixed percentage of your income, say 10% or 20% to the cause you find worthwhile, put a fixed percentage of income to your savings account and then spend the rest guilt-free? This is just a rough example, but the idea is from Ramit's Sethi's book "I Will Teach You To Be Rich", which is an excellent book for people interested in managing their personal finances. I suggest you to take a look at the book and at his site, How to Be Rich - Get Simple Tips On Personal Finance.

P.S. My first thought when I saw the name of the thread was "Well, why would I need to justify it?"

[Ilikeindowem]

Seems there are lots of judgmental attitudes in here. Yes, material things are not the ultimate source of happiness but this does not mean it is inherently wrong to get material things.