Schools - Good or Bad?

[Mounds]

Spin-off from this thread...

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

School does this. There's a point round about 15 or so when the spark of life exits a child. It happens about the same time for most people. By teaching you to learn through suffering, they make you forget about how to learn through joy. By teaching you to act through negative motivation (mostly: the fear of reprisal for not following orders) they make you forget how to act on joyful positive motivation. They make you dependent on the system, a perfect cog in their machine.

I think Mr. Gubb has a point. IME, mistakes were punished in school. Punishment kills motivation fast.

My fear of making mistakes resulted in paralysis. I lived a very at-effect life. I was simply incapable of getting the right answers. I took my punishments (poor grades, getting left behind in class, disapproval from teachers) as part of my life.

I think that's a fundamental flaw. It's away-from motivation, which I'm fine with but you're moving away from the wrong thing. Mistakes aren't something to be feared. They're part of trying new things and growing. Why try to stomp that out?

And suddenly, a revelation. A good reason to not make mistakes is because it's bad for the bottom line. Damn. Is school training workers after all?

[Brutha]

What's the alternative? School certainly beats a lot of child labor that exists in the world.
It probably also beats filling the day with watching TV.

I still think that there is a better way.

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Mounds

And suddenly, a revelation. A good reason to not make mistakes is because it's bad for the bottom line. Damn. Is school training workers after all?

This seems a little victimish, IMO. My dad always told me to "learn how to play the game" at school, and I always considered it as such. I excelled academically and always made high marks. Even with the dreaded "standardized tests" muuuaaahahahaaaa.

I never took on the belief that school was onerous or a place of suffering. I also went to private catholic school for 9 years, so I think that's saying a lot about the power that the individual has to reframe their conceptual paradigm of what it means to do ________. whether that is school or whatever. You play the game, learn their rules, and then you can bend and break them once you understand the expectations of the system.

The mistake is identifying that specific systems as "the way it is." It's not, it's just one way to do things, the way that the industrialized society does most things. In order to change a system, you have to understand it and be able to get a global perspective and see that it is just that - one of many systems.

Once you see that, you can just take components and learn how to generalize that concept.

Understand, too, that I've never been one to be very successful in traditional income earning systems because I abhor being a cog. I get money, sure, I'm just a hustler. I get it in whatever way, it's no big thing. I know men tend to identify themselves through their career based roles, though, that's a culturally inculcated concept.

[VitaBelle]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Spin-off from this thread...



I think Mr. Gubb has a point. IME, mistakes were punished in school. Punishment kills motivation fast.

My fear of making mistakes resulted in paralysis. I lived a very at-effect life. I was simply incapable of getting the right answers. I took my punishments (poor grades, getting left behind in class, disapproval from teachers) as part of my life.

I think that's a fundamental flaw. It's away-from motivation, which I'm fine with but you're moving away from the wrong thing. Mistakes aren't something to be feared. They're part of trying new things and growing. Why try to stomp that out?

And suddenly, a revelation. A good reason to not make mistakes is because it's bad for the bottom line. Damn. Is school training workers after all?

Actually, yes. Public schools were only put into effect in America to prepare younger children for life in the factories.
I am 15, and have been in and out of over nine schools in my life (including public, private, homeschool, and online) I personally think that there are various problems in the public schools, but the specific one that you're referring to is a natural lust for learning that public schools don't usually promote. In any kind of school that I've gone to: you do an hour of each subject, you can't choose what you want to learn, you have no control over teachers(or sometimes even schools- or so people think/have been told), and because of the imminent shadow of "stupid" you are eventually burnt out and lose interest in the things that you would naturally want to study.
Don't think that I'm a "learn at your own pace", "no child left behind" kid who doesn't see the value of a well-rounded education- I knew how to play the game and was literally the smartest kid in most of my classes. But why should I play their game? Because eventually the game goes beyond grades and includes things like personal freedom (I see schools break laws all the time. For example, "No Shots, No School."- you do NOT have to get vaccines to go to school- at least where I live- and the schools here still put the signs up!)
Since I left school and started studying independently I've been able to pick and choose the absolute best of everything. I really do believe that the way public schools punish for doing something wrong stifles growth, and the subconscious view that "education" is limited to school(or, campus) limits students. While I was in school, the 'best' was Honor Roll; the best to me now are prima ballerinas, senators, and places. I don't know how to explain it- it's not broad/vague.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Brutha

What's the alternative? School certainly beats a lot of child labor that exists in the world.
It probably also beats filling the day with watching TV.

I still think that there is a better way.

Institutionalized schooling began with the Industrial Revolution, when parents needed to go to work during the daytime. School is basically socialized child care.

[VitaBelle]

Originally Posted by Kali

This seems a little victimish, IMO. My dad always told me to "learn how to play the game" at school, and I always considered it as such. I excelled academically and always made high marks. Even with the dreaded "standardized tests" muuuaaahahahaaaa.

I never took on the belief that school was onerous or a place of suffering. I also went to private catholic school for 9 years, so I think that's saying a lot about the power that the individual has to reframe their conceptual paradigm of what it means to do ________. whether that is school or whatever. You play the game, learn their rules, and then you can bend and break them once you understand the expectations of the system.

The mistake is identifying that specific systems as "the way it is." It's not, it's just one way to do things, the way that the industrialized society does most things. In order to change a system, you have to understand it and be able to get a global perspective and see that it is just that - one of many systems.

Once you see that, you can just take components and learn how to generalize that concept.

Understand, too, that I've never been one to be very successful in traditional income earning systems because I abhor being a cog. I get money, sure, I'm just a hustler. I get it in whatever way, it's no big thing. I know men tend to identify themselves through their career based roles, though, that's a culturally inculcated concept.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't think that students realize that when they're in the same schools for their entire education (or just variations of the same thing- elementary, middle, and high schools). I think that's exactly where schools go wrong- in that, with 7 hours of the same things, in one place, every day, there really doesn't seem to be any other 'system'

[burningbright]

Good schools are good, bad schools are bad. If you child is going somewhere where they are not happy then it is time to move them somewhere else, or try and get more involved in the school and see what they problem is.

Also unfortunately there are some teachers who think that it is their job to not teach but to show all the kids how great they are. I know someone who had a French teacher who spent the whole time in class telling the kids how stupid they were for not being able to talk French as well as she could.

[truewinner]

I understand what you are saying about the whole not fearing mistakes thing, but I think that is more of an issue about how teaching is done rather than if school is good or bad. I do believe that America's school system is in need of a massive overhaul, however, I do not think they really punish mistakes. I mean if you got something wrong on a test then you got it wrong. Your learning and mistake making was supposed to take place prior to taking the exam.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by brutha

I still think that there is a better way.

I believe there is as well. I actually like the concept of school... or at least standardized education. I just really dislike the mistakes thing. It's very well possible that things have changed since I've been out of school.

Originally Posted by kali

This seems a little victimish, IMO. My dad always told me to "learn how to play the game" at school, and I always considered it as such. I excelled academically and always made high marks. Even with the dreaded "standardized tests" muuuaaahahahaaaa.

I never took on the belief that school was onerous or a place of suffering. I also went to private catholic school for 9 years, so I think that's saying a lot about the power that the individual has to reframe their conceptual paradigm of what it means to do ________. whether that is school or whatever. You play the game, learn their rules, and then you can bend and break them once you understand the expectations of the system.

When I was out of the school system for a few years, I had no trouble attaining extremely high marks. I'm to the point where most classes are boringly easy.

Like I said above, I like the idea of standardized education. It gives everyone some common ground. Maybe it's the standardized system that gives me the creeps. All of my classes are self-directed now and its like I can't do anything wrong. When I was in school, I understood exactly what I needed to do but the psychological barriers held me back. Cracked under the pressure, if you will.

[Mounds]

Maybe "Schools - Good or Bad" isn't the best thread title. Oh well

One thing that I sometimes have a hard time keeping in mind as well is that it's easy for me to look back as a man and say, "Well... I could've taken more responsibility". If I were to magically transport back in time, jump into my body at age seven and keep the mindset I have now, thing would've been totally different. However, I didn't actually develop this mindset until my mid-twenties. As the NLP presupposition goes, "Everyone is doing the best they can with the resources they have". At the time, I did my best. Hindsight bias would have me believe that I did something wrong.

Does anyone know if there are more self-directed options for young students these days?

[Brutha]

Institutionalized schooling began with the Industrial Revolution, when parents needed to go to work during the daytime. School is basically socialized child care.

Where I'm living we had institutionalized schooling a century before the industrial revolution.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Where I'm living we had institutionalized schooling a century before the industrial revolution.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about it:

The Prussian era (1814–1871)
Historically, the Lutheran denomination had a strong influence on German culture, including its education. Martin Luther advocated compulsory schooling so that all people would independently be able to read and interpret the Bible. This concept became a model for schools throughout Germany.
During the 18th century, the Kingdom of Prussia was among the first countries in the world to introduce free and generally compulsory primary education, consisting of an eight-year course of basic education, Volksschule. It provided not only the skills needed in an early industrialized world (reading, writing, and arithmetic), but also a strict education in ethics, duty, discipline and obedience. Children of affluent parents often went on to attend preparatory private schools for an additional four years, but the general population had virtually no access to secondary education.
In 1810, after the Napoleonic wars, Prussia introduced state certification requirements for teachers, which significantly raised the standard of teaching. The final examination, Abitur, was introduced in 1788, implemented in all Prussian secondary schools by 1812 and extended to all of Germany in 1871. The state also established teacher training colleges for prospective teachers in the common or elementary grades.

The religious aspect dovetailed nicely into the necessities brought about by industrialization. If Germany really did have mandatory schooling back in the early 1700s like you say, I would be interested to read about it.

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[moonrambler]

A primary problem with schools is that they are BORING.

You take little kids age 5 and now they have to sit in desks nearly all day. That goes on until age 17 or 18. There's so little room for creativity or exploration, or for individualized interests.

I rarely ever liked elementary or high school, although high school was somewhat better because we at least started to get a say in what we wanted to study, and my high school was on a modular system, so I had a lot of free time.

And I absolutely loved college, because now I could nearly totally pick and choose and I also got to design my own schedule.

I sure wish there was a way to do it more like that for kids.

[Kali]

Originally Posted by VitaBelle

I agree wholeheartedly, but I don't think that students realize that when they're in the same schools for their entire education (or just variations of the same thing- elementary, middle, and high schools). I think that's exactly where schools go wrong- in that, with 7 hours of the same things, in one place, every day, there really doesn't seem to be any other 'system'

I would blame that ability to think critically about circumstances on the parenting, then. It certainly didn't move around all over the place.

Viktor Frankl actually discussed a similar mindset, though his system was Auschwitz. You can give up and let circumstances control your decisions,thoughts, emotions - or you can look beyond the circumstances and realize that your decisions, thoughts, emotions, are not limited to the external components that you are presented with.

Merrily merrily merrily, life is but a dream.

[beast]

I totally get kali's point, and I can see how that is a good way to learn to rise above within the public school system.

I hated school, though! It was the pits for me. I was a straight-A student, always tested at the top, and I was absolutely miserable in there - I hated getting up at 6 every morning, I hated sitting through 6 hours of boring classes every day, I hated the time that kept me from doing things I was really interested in. I hated the social environment...okay, clearly I was an angry child! School was just not a happy place for me, though.

My parents finally let me quit school when I was 15 (after more than 4 years of begging!) and my life became better in just about every way.

I don't think I would be in a very good place right now if I'd had to finish the last 3 years of high school. I really do think that dropping out saved my life, in a way. So kudos for kids who love school! That's awesome. I was not one of them, and can't really imagine circumstances under which I ever would be. I'm a bird, baby, gotta fly

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Kali

Viktor Frankl actually discussed a similar mindset, though his system was Auschwitz. You can give up and let circumstances control your decisions,thoughts, emotions - or you can look beyond the circumstances and realize that your decisions, thoughts, emotions, are not limited to the external components that you are presented with.

As a man in his late 20's, this is easy to see. As a child, is it that apparent?

I know looking back what would've made the difference. When I was younger, those feelings were very real. Although there were better options available, I wasn't aware of them.

Just an FYI... I'm exploring it for my own future children. I had a crappy experience and I'd rather not see them go through the same thing.

[Mounds]

I like your story Beast! How did you get into college after you dropped out?

[Kali]

Originally Posted by Mounds

As a man in his late 20's, this is easy to see. As a child, is it that apparent?

I know looking back what would've made the difference. When I was younger, those feelings were very real. Although there were better options available, I wasn't aware of them.

Just an FYI... I'm exploring it for my own future children. I had a crappy experience and I'd rather not see them go through the same thing.

Well, I did.

I guess that's not saying much since I was an obscenely intelligent child...but I also think I sort of rose to the challenge that my parents presented me.

I also did not necessarily enjoy the process, but I have remarkable endurance, an extremely high threshold for physical pain, and the ability to zen out when I am suffering in extreme ways. So, whether that was basic training, who knows?

In any event I don't support the system, but I do think that a lot of responsibility rests on the shoulders of parents. Too many parents sort of release their children to the public school system, and I know a lot of young female teachers that are forced to act as surrogate parents to children who have parents who don't know how to parent...

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Mounds

As a man in his late 20's, this is easy to see. As a child, is it that apparent?

I know looking back what would've made the difference. When I was younger, those feelings were very real. Although there were better options available, I wasn't aware of them.

Just an FYI... I'm exploring it for my own future children. I had a crappy experience and I'd rather not see them go through the same thing.

I think as a parent you have a lot of influence here.

In classes that a child doesn't like you can help them reframe it as an exercise in will power. Or you can teach them to meditate with their eyes open (while part of them is paying attention). Or any other thing.

And in their time off at home with you, see what they are interested in and how the classes that they don't like tie into that. And take them out and have them experience real world examples of the theory that they are learning.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by ssandra

And in their time off at home with you, see what they are interested in and how the classes that they don't like tie into that. And take them out and have them experience real world examples of the theory that they are learning.

I like those ideas. My parents spent a lot of time doing these very exercises. I was always encouraged to pursue any interest I had. I've got plans to do the same for my own kids

I'm not too interested in exploring why things didn't go as planned anymore. I've decided that I'm proud of what I've become and if denizens from the past try to take that away, I'll NLP their asses into oblivion.

[neivindamin]

schools is gud that formulates the future of children nd wht is another way of teaching children but schools should also look wht to make study, most imp. is how to build a over all personality of a child.......

[Elrond]

In Norway, not more far back than my parents, a big part of school was to learn about the Bible, including memorizing verses. Based on the other post in this thread about Martin Luther, maybe it had to do with Lutheran Christianity being the main religion (and still is). Education in Christianity was the biggest part of the "common education", at least in the earliest days. I guess indoctrinating people to become better workers might be a step up from religious indoctrination.

[beast]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I like your story Beast! How did you get into college after you dropped out?

Well, applying to college was sort of a B, in terms of all the work I had to put into it - but it was all totally worth it. I had to take a lot of standardized tests to show that I was up to chop - this isn't always a problem, but I was applying to mostly really selective schools, and some of them required extra tests from homeschoolers (which is how I was classified). I also submitted a 17 page application with a list of all the books I read and everything I did after leaving school. I think I had some really compelling essays, too.

Luckily, I live in a college-y area, and was able to take a lot of college courses when I turned 16 (many of them for credit, for free! Being sweet and charming can get you far in life ). I collected a lot of references from my college professors. I had originally applied to college with the hopes of becoming a classics major (hah!) and one of my professors wrote me a recommendation stating that I was the most brilliant Latin student he'd ever taught, so that helped. Math has always come really easily for me, and I has great math test scores/grades in my college classes, and I think that was a big bonus - some colleges worry about homeschoolers being deficient in math/science, and as a girl with a really strong math background, I was especially appealing.

As a homeschooler, I also spent about 15-20 hours per week volunteering, and I had recommendations for that work, too. I took some art classes, so I had that to show for myself, too, and I also spent a good chunk of time practicing a fairly unusual instrument, writing fiction, building greenhouses, and basically doing whatever really cool things I felt like doing. I think I just had a much more compelling application than I would have had I stayed in school - I stood out, and the admissions offices probably felt like they knew me a lot better than they knew most other applicants.

[beast]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I think as a parent you have a lot of influence here.

In classes that a child doesn't like you can help them reframe it as an exercise in will power. Or you can teach them to meditate with their eyes open (while part of them is paying attention). Or any other thing.

And in their time off at home with you, see what they are interested in and how the classes that they don't like tie into that. And take them out and have them experience real world examples of the theory that they are learning.

I like these ideas, too - but don't you think it might be better for some kids to not have to go to school at all?

I ask because I've spent the past 9 years being deeply involved with the unschooling community. I know hundreds of unschooled kids, and it is amazing for me to see how some of them blossom after quitting school (I think it was amazing for my parents to witness in me, too).

I know a girl who quit at age 15 so she could devote herself to becoming a serious ballerina. I don't think it would have been possible for her to do this had she stayed in school. I know kids who were bullied and traumatized, and started thriving socially after leaving.

For me, I probably could have made it through school without my teachers really sensing anything was wrong. As I said, I got good grades and tested well. But I was really, really unhappy. I think I have attention deficit issues - I find it extremely difficult to focus unless I'm interested in the subject at hand. This was never a problem for me as an unschooler or college student, because I loved everything I was learning about, but I was so bored in middle/high school!

I've also had insomnia since I was about 10 years old, and have tried just about everything imaginable to make it go away. Some nights it's worse than others, but I would have 3 day periods where I didn't get a wink of sleep. I was a walking zombie. Knowing that I would have to wake up at 6 the next morning to get up for school would exacerbate the problem, and I spent so many nights just crying and not sleeping a wink. I have gotten my insomnia relatively under control since then, but I am much more mature now than I was at 15, and I don't know how well I could have coped if I'd been forced to finish school.

I just think that people who were relatively happy and satisfied in school can't really understand how stifling, boring, and traumatic it can be for other people. I see no harm in telling those kids who are miserable "you have other options. You can take control of your education right now. Even though you're a minor, we are going to respect your freedom, and do everything we can to make you feel safe, comfortable, and nurtured." I wish my parents had said this to me 4 years earlier than they did, but I still feel so lucky that they eventually came around!

[Mounds]

I find your story quite inspiring, Beast. Kind of wish I'd gone that route. However, I got my chance later in life I learn new things everyday.

[curiouslyrandom]

I was so unhappy with my school experience at age 7 (grade 2 in the US) that I decided I wasn't going to sit through another 4 years of college after high school. I figured I might go to college at age 30 if I felt like it. I started my freshman year of college on my 29th birthday and proceeded to get very high marks for the next few years because I loved being there.

All through my younger school years I got low marks because I simply didn't care. School was boring. I hated being restricted and controlled. I got picked on for being small in grade school, and in high school because I actually enjoyed reading.

My son is unschooled because he doesn't fit in with the crowd and prefers solitude. My daughter is graduating from a district homeschool program a year early because she felt like finishing her work up and getting on with life. She loves being around people, but her peers weren't as interesting as the other kids she knew who were already in college.

You know what's really ironic? My boyfriend is a school teacher. :P

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by beast

I like these ideas, too - but don't you think it might be better for some kids to not have to go to school at all?

I absolutely agree with you! For some kids it is better to not go to school.

However; I do believe that there are aspects of school that are healthy for children to learn. Sitting down when you have to, having to follow other peoples rules (you have to know and be able to follow other peoples rules before you can break them. My opinion).

As well, for some parents homeschooling might not be an option. Especially when children are smaller and would need more time and attention.

In those cases helping your child make the best of it is a very viable option.

I plan to sent my children to school here from a young age. Simply because they will learn things there that I am unable to teach them (Mainly Mexican songs, habits, etc). At home, I hope to teach them what they want to learn.

If however they are very unhappy or unable to do well (emotionally, not talking about grades) homeschooling would be an option.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by ssandra

If however they are very unhappy or unable to do well (emotionally, not talking about grades) homeschooling would be an option.

I BEGGED my mother to homeschool me. She said she couldn't do it at the time, but she wanted to. She was supportive when I took my son out of school, and that helped me a lot. So many people (especially in California) think it's a horrible crime to take your kid out of school. Hello? Our schools are nearly worst in the nation right now. My kids were miserable and in therapy. Now they're happy and much more stable.

Homeschooling and unschooling aren't for everyone. My daughter prefers the structure of homeschooling, whereas my son prefers the flexibility of unschooling. I'm just happy to see them doing well and looking forward to the future. If I didn't work from home myself, this would not have been an option for me as a single parent.

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by ssandra

However; I do believe that there are aspects of school that are healthy for children to learn. Sitting down when you have to, having to follow other peoples rules (you have to know and be able to follow other peoples rules before you can break them. My opinion).

The problem is, sitting down, doing what you're told- is what school is mostly about. Free will is a problem. If you find something enjoyable and want to learn more, you can't, because you have to stop once that lesson is over. What if you don't enjoy the next lesson? Too much drudgery and not enough interest.

Also, being forced to obey the rules doesn't help you break them. You obey or have years of hassle ahead. Plus, is it really that necessary to know the rules? It's not like it's rules of life (or only in a really vague way).

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

The problem is, sitting down, doing what you're told- is what school is mostly about. Free will is a problem. If you find something enjoyable and want to learn more, you can't, because you have to stop once that lesson is over. What if you don't enjoy the next lesson? Too much drudgery and not enough interest.

Great life lesson in delayed gratification. If you want to learn more about a certain subject, take it up after school.

(like I said, parents are a HUGE part in this. Children on their own might not do this, but with the right guidance from their parents, I believe they can and will.)

Also, being forced to obey the rules doesn't help you break them. You obey or have years of hassle ahead. Plus, is it really that necessary to know the rules? It's not like it's rules of life (or only in a really vague way).

I didn't say that being forced to obey the rules helps you break them. I said that I am of the opinion that only after you have obeyed the rules, you should break them. There is a lot to learn from following the rules. Even if it is only what good you can take from them and why they are not for you.