Did you/do you vote? Why or why not?

[KevinG]

You don't have to vote if you don't want to; but you should recognize the fact that you don't really have anything to complain about if you don't voice your opinion at the polls first.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by KevinG

You don't have to vote if you don't want to; but you should recognize the fact that you don't really have anything to complain about if you don't voice your opinion at the polls first.

I think the oppossite. It's you that don't have anything to complain. You have participate in the voting, you agree the system and believe on it somehow, you think your vote is useful.

I think my opinion doesn't counts really, that's why I complain. Well I don't think I "complain"... I just accept it and forget about politicians.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by songwriter

I think the oppossite. It's you that don't have anything to complain. You have participate in the voting, you agree the system and believe on it somehow, you think your vote is useful.

I think my opinion doesn't counts really, that's why I complain. Well I don't think I "complain"... I just accept it and forget about politicians.

If your vote gets counted, then your vote counts. There is no logical argument otherwise.

Whether you feel like it matters or not is up to you. But if you deny the system, you can't complain about the people who were elected by the system. If you don't like it, there are countless other countries you could move to who don't use the same system.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by KevinG

If your vote gets counted, then your vote counts. There is no logical argument otherwise.

Whether you feel like it matters or not is up to you. But if you deny the system, you can't complain about the people who were elected by the system. If you don't like it, there are countless other countries you could move to who don't use the same system.

It's because I deny the system that I can complain... if you like it you can't complain of who is elected... but that's my opinion.
If you like the way a sport team plays you can't complain of the results...
I won't move from Spain for not liking that...

[KevinG]

I see the point you are trying to make. I just feel that if you refuse to be part of the system, you can't complain about not liking the system. Doesn't that make sense?

[Brien]

Originally Posted by KevinG

I see the point you are trying to make. I just feel that if you refuse to be part of the system, you can't complain about not liking the system. Doesn't that make sense?

I understand that if you aren't making an impact, then all you are doing is complaining. But why does making an impact have to be framed in a "system"? I just think that voting is being part of "the system" in a very shallow and perhaps even harmful way.

However, by the same token, I'd say that if you aren't part of a solution, you are part of the problem. System or no system, voting or not, however you choose to do so, making an impact is paramount.

[ahimel]

(This may be applicable primarily to US elections)

The US government was created based on the premise that government is a necessary evil, but you should make it as difficult as possible for them to do anything. That's why we have so many people that have to approve a law, so many ways it can get shot down but very few ways to make it easier, etc.

It is therefore your patriotic duty to make governmental changes as difficult as possible. In local elections, vote against all changes (referendums, amendments, etc.) In national elections, do your best to keep as many parties as possible as balanced as possible, so that none of them can get anything done due to all their opponents.

If something's a good idea, it'll get passed without your vote. If it doesn't pass, you can probably live without it for another year.

Plus, it means I can reuse the same yard sign year after year... VOTE NO!

[JohnLong]

Originally Posted by KevinG

I see the point you are trying to make. I just feel that if you refuse to be part of the system, you can't complain about not liking the system. Doesn't that make sense?

Kevin, I'm not following you here. Should non slaveholders have been able to complain about slavery? Should people who don't work at a corporation be able to complain about corporate culture and power? Should civilians be able to criticize the military? Should pacifists be able to criticize war?

It seems that often the people best qualified to criticize a system are those who refuse to be part of it.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by JohnLong

Kevin, I'm not following you here. Should non slaveholders have been able to complain about slavery? Should people who don't work at a corporation be able to complain about corporate culture and power? Should civilians be able to criticize the military? Should pacifists be able to criticize war?

It seems that often the people best qualified to criticize a system are those who refuse to be part of it.

The question isn't participating in the system, the question is getting the benefits of the system.

Non-slaveholders don't get to complain that their laborers are too expensive. People who don't work at a corporation don't get to complain that they don't have corporate job security. Civilians don't get to complain that they never got the discipline of military training. Pacifists don't get to complain... um, OK, I can't come up with a benefit to war.

You don't get to refuse to say what you want, and then complain when you don't get what you want.

[ScottLee]

Having just turned 18, I plan to at least starting voting in national elections, though local and some national elections are actually happening lately and I've not been voting. Just been too busy and what's the use in voting if you're voting in the dark? I've not had time to learn anything about candidates.

I'd say that's probably one of the biggest problems, people are either ignorant or they just don't have an opporunity to become politically knowledgeable.

[JohnLong]

Originally Posted by ahimel

You don't get to refuse to say what you want, and then complain when you don't get what you want.

What I want is no voting, no government in fact! How can voting be a way of expressing that? I consider the whole system irredeemable, even through voting.

To me, it's as if I were in grade school, and a group of bigger kids declared that they were in charge of the playground. But, graciously, they let me choose which one of them got to run things! I'm not going to participate in a farce like that.

And before you say in a democracy I could also run to be the ruler, what gives ME the right to rule the playground any more than them?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by songwriter

I think the oppossite. It's you that don't have anything to complain. You have participate in the voting, you agree the system and believe on it somehow, you think your vote is useful.

I think my opinion doesn't counts really, that's why I complain. Well I don't think I "complain"... I just accept it and forget about politicians.

Your vote does count. People often mistake their vote as something that should count for more than the several million other votes. The principle behind democracy, the majority rule system, and voting as a mechanism, is that the aggregation of a large amount of opinion is most likely going to be best. The assumption is that the individual is capable of making an intelligent decision when they vote.

Originally Posted by JohnLong

And before you say in a democracy I could also run to be the ruler, what gives ME the right to rule the playground any more than them?

Not so. In a democracy, there is no ruler. The President of the United States is a public office, better termed as, civil servant. His job is to represent the people of the United States as their spokesperson. The offices of mayor, governor, congressman, senator are similar in function. Start small. If you move in a better city council, you'll have leverage to move in a better state legislature. With that, you can move in a stronger Congress. With that, you can manuever a good President into office.

Now, if you disagree with the system, then sure, that's your right. But please be sure that you're disagreeing with a system you know enough about.

[songwriter]

It seems that recently the best thing to do to be the President of the USA is:

-Be a son of other president

-Be the wife of other president

Hard work!

I should stay away from politics...

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Your vote does count. People often mistake their vote as something that should count for more than the several million other votes. The principle behind democracy, the majority rule system, and voting as a mechanism, is that the aggregation of a large amount of opinion is most likely going to be best. The assumption is that the individual is capable of making an intelligent decision when they vote.



Not so. In a democracy, there is no ruler. The President of the United States is a public office, better termed as, civil servant. His job is to represent the people of the United States as their spokesperson. The offices of mayor, governor, congressman, senator are similar in function. Start small. If you move in a better city council, you'll have leverage to move in a better state legislature. With that, you can move in a stronger Congress. With that, you can manuever a good President into office.

Now, if you disagree with the system, then sure, that's your right. But please be sure that you're disagreeing with a system you know enough about.

Excellent post Michael. Well said.