Communication Styles Blocking Progress

[ChrisGinsburg]

I'd like to comment on an observation I have seen time and time again here which I believe to be one of the most detrimental hindrances to actual progress here.

That is, the way in which people have come to the conclusion that there are only very specific ways in which people should communicate. This goes hand in hand with the overuse of the word "conscious" which is thrown into discussions quite often in a way that seems to be devoid of real meaning. The word itself seems to have broken down into a system of people uttering it as a way to reaffirm that this is a community of "conscious" people as compared to you know... that group of people "out there" that aren't "conscious". If people aren't communicating in a way that is deemed "conscious" it becomes dismissed and a long argument about communication styles ensues.

Although I don't encourage people to be rude or disrespectful I think that most discussions have evolved into a strange dynamic where far too many people are posting simply to get affirmation that they are in fact a "smart person" or "conscious individual" worthy of participating here.

Actual growth or progress seems to be significantly stifled by people getting jumped on if they present their actual viewpoint in an authentic way that is perhaps anything less than an intellectual masterpiece and takes everyone's feelings into consideration. While I see a tremendous amount of value in this forum I also think people need to recognize that we are all coming from different vantage points and should be allowed to present any idea in any way as long as it's not someone obviously dishing out personal attacks.

In other words, too much intellectual masturbation. I'd be quite interested to hear opinions even if I'm the only one seeing it this way.

And yes, it's a fairly long post that I would probably skip over if I hadn't wrote it myself. I made several paragraphs though so don't completely discount it.

[elucidate]

I have to say I agree with this totally, and I've been on the butt end of this experience plenty of times now to realize that if I don't commuicate the way some people would prefer here, then I face their disapproval (and possibly neg rep )...as though that is the worst thing in the world. It also feels that I am then somehow demoted to being "less smart"or "less effective" in their eyes, and therefore "don't get it" and need to be policed until I do conform to their preferred way of communicating.

It's my philosophy that it's a good skill to learn to be able to adapt to different peoples communication styles. Why should one group of people who have similar communication styles feel that theirs is the only one that is 'right' or 'better'. That, to me, displays a certain lack of appreciation for the diversity that is out there...and an inability to bend. It also feels like a subtle form of bullying and browbeating. It also feels like sometime people here will use the SR card to turn an argument around on a person just to win...not because there is any actual truth in what they are saying...which kinda grates me because it's not an honest way to do things, and it seems like a convenient way to avoid looking at their own ****, whilst still holding the self-opinion that they are taking 100% responsability for themselves. It's one of the main bones I have to pick with the whole "create your own reality" concept...it can be misused, and abused in some cases.

I recently got told by someone that I was ättacking" someone else for expressing my opinion about a subject...NOT about that person specifically, but it seems more and more that whenever an opinion is expressed that may disagree with someone who has popularity status here, the other gets condemned for attacking them. Just because a person experiences someones words as an attack, doesn't mean an attack has taken place...and I've been on the other side of the fence of this as well, so it is something I am also learning.

Honest observations like this are what help to make people think, and I think lots of people here are operating from some sort of conformity driven mode, where if you don't communicate the way they prefer you get smacked down.

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

While I see a tremendous amount of value in this forum I also think people need to recognize that we are all coming from different vantage points and should be allowed to present any idea in any way as long as it's not someone obviously dishing out personal attacks.

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was already doing exactly that.

The thing is, each person could have a different idea of what falls under "obvious personal attack", based on what tends to push their buttons. I know a kind of communication style that feels like a personal attack to me, that would probably mean nothing to other people. And it can be really hard to see that it's just my button being pushed, rather than, "(S)He's OBVIOUSLY insulting/belittling/invalidating/[etc.]ing me."

Not that it isn't my responsibility to work on that anyway. I'm just giving my guess on where these kinds of tangents come from: A difference in belief of what defines "personal attack".

[James81]

I've learned not to engage with discussions that don't resonate with me and to expand on discussions that do. I've found that this has improved my experience here. Why waste time on a discussion that isn't resonating with me? That uses precious mental resources that could be better suited elsewhere.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lanya

I wouldn't be surprised if everyone was already doing exactly that.

The thing is, each person could have a different idea of what falls under "obvious personal attack", based on what tends to push their buttons. I know a kind of communication style that feels like a personal attack to me, that would probably mean nothing to other people. And it can be really hard to see that it's just my button being pushed, rather than, "(S)He's OBVIOUSLY insulting/belittling/invalidating/[etc.]ing me."

Not that it isn't my responsibility to work on that anyway. I'm just giving my guess on where these kinds of tangents come from: A difference in belief of what defines "personal attack".

This is exactly it.

What is insults and attack to one person is just expressing an opinion to another...without any malicious intent whatsoever.

There are some very sensitive people on this forum, and sometimes it feels like they see attack everywhere, when the reality is usually not the case...though it can feel that way at times, and I have felt that way before as well when I am feeling particularly vulnerable or sensitive.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's my philosophy that it's a good skill to learn to be able to adapt to different peoples communication styles. Why should one group of people who have similar communication styles feel that theirs is the only one that is 'right' or 'better'. That, to me, displays a certain lack of appreciation for the diversity that is out there...and an inability to bend.

It is a good skill to be able to listen to different people coming from different backgrounds and to understand where they are coming from. It is also a skill to communicate to people that you do understand them, which I think a lot of people want. Just to be understood; it is not so much about needing somone to agree with them.

Whether or not a person will actually behave in this manner, however, is a completley different matter. They may simply not want to understand you for selfish reasons. Those reasons may not always be 'bad' though. I don't resonate with James' style of communication (I liteally feel like I'm talking to a wall), but I don't think any less of him. I just don't want to bother interacting with him most of the time (I get the impression that he feels the same way about me) This doesn't make us bad people.

If we want to be heard and understood, I think we are better off changing our communication style in order to accomodate the other. Otherwise, we could just ignore the person in question and find someone else that we resonate with.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Actual growth or progress seems to be significantly stifled by people getting jumped on if they present their actual viewpoint in an authentic way that is perhaps anything less than an intellectual masterpiece and takes everyone's feelings into consideration.

If that's so, it's the jumped upon person who is stifling his or her own growth. He or she is the only person who has that power. Of course, it's possible to pretend to give that power away, if one chooses to. (of course, one might get jumped on for it. )

While I see a tremendous amount of value in this forum I also think people need to recognize that we are all coming from different vantage points and should be allowed to present any idea in any way as long as it's not someone obviously dishing out personal attacks.

We are allowed to do that. Do you mean, we should be allowed to do that without getting the kind of feedback you have described here?

Everybody's got some kind of feedback they don't prefer to get - their petpeeveback. That sort of manure is the best kind of feedback for growth -- learn to get that feedback and be fertilized and supported by it, whether you boldly use it or you allow it to just be an indication of where you don't want to go, without making it mean anything that feels bad to you, and you will be unstoppable in your personal growth.

And if you feel like someone is indulging in intellectual masturbation, you could always just quietly close the door and let them enjoy themselves, or you could reach over and give them an intellectual hand job.

[James81]

My latest thread illustrates what you are talking about, I think, Chris.

I tried writing out a response to that thread just now and after three different versions, I finally threw my hands in the air and decided that I'm just gonna let it die. Lol.

And it's not because the advice isn't decent (it is), it's just not what I asked for. I asked for advice about "A", and most peeps came in talking about B, C, and D.

I think you are seeing variations of that yourself. I must admit, though, that it has taught me to generate my own solutions and blaze my own path. So that's one good thing that has come out of it.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Angela

If that's so, it's the jumped upon person who is stifling his or her own growth. He or she is the only person who has that power. Of course, it's possible to pretend to give that power away, if one chooses to. (of course, one might get jumped on for it. )



We are allowed to do that. Do you mean, we should be allowed to do that without getting the kind of feedback you have described here?

Everybody's got some kind of feedback they don't prefer to get - their petpeeveback. That sort of manure is the best kind of feedback for growth -- learn to get that feedback and be fertilized and supported by it, whether you boldly use it or you allow it to just be an indication of where you don't want to go, without making it mean anything that feels bad to you, and you will be unstoppable in your personal growth.

And if you feel like someone is indulging in intellectual masturbation, you could always just quietly close the door and let them enjoy themselves, or you could reach over and give them an intellectual hand job.

I agree with you Angela. I'm simply observing a very dysfunctional pattern that seems to occur all to frequently.

Ultimately it's always up to the individual to take responsibility for their own growth but I think there is also a collective growth of the forum community. In such a way I see discussions and progress made as a whole stunted by people constantly arguing about communication styles.

[VinceG]

I honestly don't see the pattern the OP is describing. I could do with a few examples.

[taylor]

Yeah, I'm not sure I follow what you're referring to Chris.

I know for me I have to watch the way I think and talk because it seems to be very important in how my reality manifests. So if someone is saying "My life is **** and I really hate those bastards." my first instinct as far as advice is for them to shift their mindset. Even if they can funnel that anger into productive action, that anger is going to manifest in their results in some form or another.

Maybe that seems like intolerance but I think it's very practical advice.

edit: I skimmed the OP again and I'm still don't see what you're getting at. There seems to be a lot of different communication styles and views expressed here. It seems great to me.

[rei]

I've seen this. I've gotten the feedback that says my communication isn't working for the person I'm speaking to, and I've given the same.

(I would not be surprised if the dd thread inspired this thread, Chris.)

I'm all for conversational flexibility. I also know that certain styles just don't work with certain personalities. If both conversation partners are stuck in their position, I don't think progress comes from that either. If neither person wants to bend, not much can be done.

However, I don't think it's true that you can't make any progress or grow if you don't accept a conversation style that doesn't work as well for you as others. I think growing through interaction is inevitable, even if it isn't always public

[As a side effect of the thread I'm mentioning in discussing your topic, I'd think folks here might be interested to know I ended up arranging for some grunt work financial stuff that I hadn't bothered with. In other words, I ended up naturally desiring to make a responsible choice ]

ETA: We may define intellectual masturbation differently. I view that as a cerebral conversation about theoretical possibilities with no practical application, for the purpose of hearing yourself sound smart. I think speaking with awareness to your audience and your goal is not the same as intellectual masturbation. Your OP is so vague that I can't tell if you're also referring to the latter.

If you include my contributions here as the stuff you take issue with, you might as well just come out and say it eh?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by rei

I've seen this. I've gotten the feedback that says my communication isn't working for the person I'm speaking to, and I've given the same.

(I would not be surprised if the dd thread inspired this thread, Chris.)

I'm all for conversational flexibility. I also know that certain styles just don't work with certain personalities. If both conversation partners are stuck in their position, I don't think progress comes from that either. If neither person wants to bend, not much can be done.

However, I don't think it's true that you can't make any progress or grow if you don't accept a conversation style that doesn't work as well for you as others. I think growing through interaction is inevitable, even if it isn't always public

Yes, that thread reminded me of it. It's not that I don't think any progress can be made, I just see a fairly large amount of threads degenerate into people getting overly sensitive about communication styles and the original topic becoming a side show. I don't necessarily have a solution but I wanted to gauge how many people also saw this and how many people had no clue what I'm talking about.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by rei

However, I don't think it's true that you can't make any progress or grow if you don't accept a conversation style that doesn't work as well for you as others. I think growing through interaction is inevitable, even if it isn't always public

Thats true; I've made more progress reflecting on what has been said on these forums and integrating what is said in a way that makes sense to me. Often this involves very little interaction with another person (beyond the medium that they provide - the text) and I suspect that the way I interpret the words has little to do with what the other person actually intended to communicate.

Nice avatar BTW...

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by James81

My latest thread illustrates what you are talking about, I think, Chris.

I tried writing out a response to that thread just now and after three different versions, I finally threw my hands in the air and decided that I'm just gonna let it die. Lol.

And it's not because the advice isn't decent (it is), it's just not what I asked for. I asked for advice about "A", and most peeps came in talking about B, C, and D.

I think you are seeing variations of that yourself. I must admit, though, that it has taught me to generate my own solutions and blaze my own path. So that's one good thing that has come out of it.

That is certainly part of it but sometimes that's just because people don't know what the OP is looking for. What I'm referring to is someone specifically asking advice about apples and someone coming in to talk endlessly about oranges just because they happen to know so much about them. In fact, what I'm referring to involves many different things. All of which are difficult to explain fully unless someone already knows what I'm talking about.

[rei]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, that thread reminded me of it. It's not that I don't think any progress can be made, I just see a fairly large amount of threads degenerate into people getting overly sensitive about communication styles and the original topic becoming a side show. I don't necessarily have a solution but I wanted to gauge how many people also saw this and how many people had no clue what I'm talking about.

Overly sensitive? That seems to assume the response to the style is about insecurity or hurt feelings. Sometimes it's about power and values.

I think if a style doesn't resonate for that person, they can choose to try and stretch to make it fit better. They can also choose to leave, or choose to communicate that it isn't working for them. I don't think the message itself gets lost even if someone goes meta about the style used to convey the message.

I think conversations are living, breathing things, and in a way, it can push away potential growth to require a linear conversation flow. Sometimes there's double the growth to be had if you follow along the meandering path of a conversation. But that's me and my own values/preferences; others have different ones.

I think meta-communication has its place in communication. I take it you don't agree?

[Cochonette]

Funny, I was just reading about a really awesome play that I am now dying to read. It is a tragicomedy about how no one can ever understand anyone else because their intended meaning will always be different from the received meaning.

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, that thread reminded me of it. It's not that I don't think any progress can be made, I just see a fairly large amount of threads degenerate into people getting overly sensitive about communication styles and the original topic becoming a side show. I don't necessarily have a solution but I wanted to gauge how many people also saw this and how many people had no clue what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by rei

Overly sensitive? That seems to assume the response to the style is about insecurity or hurt feelings. Sometimes it's about power and values.

Originally Posted by rei

I think conversations are living, breathing things, and in a way, it can push away potential growth to require a linear conversation flow. Sometimes there's double the growth to be had if you follow along the meandering path of a conversation. But that's me and my own values/preferences; others have different ones.

I think meta-communication has its place in communication. I take it you don't agree?

I'm not sure if this is what you intended Chris, but your choice of words ('degenerate' 'overly sensitive') seems to be implying that such threads have little value. But the value of the thread really depends upon the person interpreting it. What I value in a thread has nothing to do with what you think about it. One thing I've noticed about the 'super' threads is that there is always one or two people who come out of it wit a new found insight. That insight may have little to do with the original intention of the original post and the original poster, but that doesn't make the insight any less valuable. I think sometimes people think that they 'own' the threads that they start, and therefore, anything that doesn't reflect what they expect is delegitimate. That does have some merit to it. I do try to respect the author's original intention. But as rei said, conversations are 'living, breathing things', and the moment you engage someone else in conversation, you are giving that person permission to lead the conversation into unexplored territory. You are engaging a living, human being that will direct the conversation in a manner that is personally meaningful to themselves. If you don't like it, disengage from the conversation.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I'm not sure if this is what you intended Chris, but your choice of words ('degenerate' 'overly sensitive') seems to be implying that such threads have little value. But the value of the thread really depends upon the person interpreting it. What I value in a thread has nothing to do with what you think about it. One thing I've noticed about the 'super' threads is that there is always one or two people who come out of it wit a new found insight. That insight may have little to do with the original intention of the original post and the original poster, but that doesn't make the insight any less valuable. I think sometimes people think that they 'own' the threads that they start, and therefore, anything that doesn't reflect what they expect is delegitimate. That does have some merit to it. I do try to respect the author's original intention. But as rei said, conversations are 'living, breathing things', and the moment you engage someone else in conversation, you are giving that person permission to lead the conversation into unexplored territory. You are engaging a living, human being that will direct the conversation in a manner that is personally meaningful to themselves. If you don't like it, disengage from the conversation.

It's not even that I disagree with anything being said here. I know there's loads of value to be had in an evolving discussion or really anything for that matter. However, here we are having a discussion about my choice of words because I wasn't careful enough to take into consideration whether I should say "overly sensitive" etc.

[Angelique]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I just see a fairly large amount of threads degenerate into people getting overly sensitive about communication styles and the original topic becoming a side show.

I see that but I think I interpret it little differently.

When that happens, I usually get the feeling that the people discussing don't feel like the other one is listening, or maybe not seeing things in the way they meant them.

Being authentic doesn't guarantee effective communication. Sometimes it's useful to say what you mean to say about the things you are saying.

In that case, there is progress happening.. developing your communicative style or effectiveness is a challenge. That's a good challenge to have, IMO.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Angelique

I see that but I think I interpret it little differently.

When that happens, I usually get the feeling that the people discussing don't feel like the other one is listening, or maybe not seeing things in the way they meant them.

Being authentic doesn't guarantee effective communication. Sometimes it's useful to say what you mean to say about the things you are saying.

In that case, there is progress happening.. developing your communicative style or effectiveness is a challenge. That's a good challenge to have, IMO.

That's certainly true and I generally feel like I convey my points pretty well based on the responses I've gotten. In fact, this is the first time posting here where I feel like a fair number of people don't know what I'm referring to. I wanted to try to tackle a rather vague topic because I think there's a lot of value hidden within the topic that most people aren't normally willing to discuss.

[marinik]

This is from the http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/n...reply&p=881410 thread...

Originally Posted by James81

And now you're putting the blame over onto ME because I didn't take the time to ask you what you wanted to accomplish?

Hey, man, I'm all for understanding each other and all that, but come on...you're the one who started the thread, it's your responsibility to get what you want out of it. Nobody else's but yours.

And you'll get far better results if you drop the whole defensive act. (i.e. arguing with me about who shoulda did what in the thread or how my post was giving advice without understanding, etc.)

I've seen you do this countless times here. Start a thread, and then start acting like an ass to the people who are taking the time to help you.

This is one of the classic examples of the communication you are talking about. I loved the reply...

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

1. I don't know where you are getting this blame mentality. That's your baggage, not mine. I'm not going to take that bait.

2. I happen to subscribe to Angela's ideas about 100% responsibility in communication for both the sender and receiver. I'm guessing you don't? Funny how you can lecture on responsibility though isn't it?

I just said the thread failed to accomplish what I wanted. I never 'blamed' anyone. I never said I was in any way not responsible for anything. But here you come, wanting to know why anyways.

3. If you think accusations and name calling are in any way 'helping' then you've lost all credibility with me and I'd prefer you just stay out of my threads. Don't waste your time with me James.

So this is how it ends often.....

[ZephyrusX]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It's not even that I disagree with anything being said here. I know there's loads of value to be had in an evolving discussion or really anything for that matter.

Okie dokie. I acknowledge that.

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

However, here we are having a discussion about my choice of words because I wasn't careful enough to take into consideration whether I should say "overly sensitive" etc.

And its because some of us interpreted your words in a way that is meaningful for us. This is what human beings do, and so, conversations take on a life of their own regardless of the original intentions. Are you taking what I said personally? Because I didn't intend to really say anything about your character. I was just musing over your choice of words.

What would happen if people took the time to acknowledge the importance of others' interpretations? This doesn't mean agreeing or disagreeing. Just acknowledging. So for example, the author starts a thread on topic A. The participants introduce topic B, C, D because topic A struck a chord that is personally meaningful for them. Author A demonstrates that he/she understands the viewpoint and acknowledges that the viewpoint is personally important for the participants. Then politely requests that the conversation return to topic A. Do you think that would work out for the author?

[Mynder]

What I also appreciate is the realization that most of the time, blaming the other person for getting defensive is an expression of exactly the same. Without realizing it yourself in that moment and emotional state.

"It's gotta be them, can't be something wrong with me, right?"

Something that sort of works well for me whenever I get worked up about something is to walk away, get some fresh air, and let nature bring me back to "real life". Get some distance in between me and "that other me", and later check back in and try on the discussion from this other perspective that may allow me to be more open towards understanding what the other person said, and how what they said might have triggered a button for me (or vice versa).

Edit: To say it simply, whenever something "triggers" me, there is something for me to find in there.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by Mynder

What I also appreciate is the realization that most of the time, blaming the other person for getting defensive is an expression of exactly the same. Without realizing it yourself in that moment and emotional state.

"It's gotta be them, can't be something wrong with me, right?"

Something that sort of works well for me whenever I get worked up about something is to walk away, get some fresh air, and let nature bring me back to "real life". Get some distance in between me and "that other me", and later check back in and try on the discussion from this other perspective that may allow me to be more open towards understanding what the other person said, and how what they said might have triggered a button for me (or vice versa).

Edit: To say it simply, whenever something "triggers" me, there is something for me to find in there.

I needed to read this just now.

[James81]

Originally Posted by marinik

This is from the http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/n...reply&p=881410 thread...



This is one of the classic examples of the communication you are talking about. I loved the reply...




So this is how it ends often.....

The funny part about that reply was that those are not Angela's ideas about communication. Angela, from what I recall, subscribes to the idea of 100% responsibility for the sender (i.e. how it is communicated) rather than the receiver (how it is received).

I'm kinda surprised that she didn't say something about it there, actually, because she usually don't take too kindly to peeps misquoting or misrepresenting her views.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mynder

What I also appreciate is the realization that most of the time, blaming the other person for getting defensive is an expression of exactly the same. Without realizing it yourself in that moment and emotional state.

"It's gotta be them, can't be something wrong with me, right?"

Something that sort of works well for me whenever I get worked up about something is to walk away, get some fresh air, and let nature bring me back to "real life". Get some distance in between me and "that other me", and later check back in and try on the discussion from this other perspective that may allow me to be more open towards understanding what the other person said, and how what they said might have triggered a button for me (or vice versa).

Edit: To say it simply, whenever something "triggers" me, there is something for me to find in there.

I saw an interesting quote on facebook recently:

"He who fights monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

I've noticed that several times (for myself, I mean). In order for me to tell someone they are being judgmental, I have to make a judgement in order to do that. In order for me to tell someone they are being an ass, I make myself an ass in that moment to do that.

[Brutha]

While I see a tremendous amount of value in this forum I also think people need to recognize that we are all coming from different vantage points and should be allowed to present any idea in any way as long as it's not someone obviously dishing out personal attacks.

You used the evil word

As far as the topic goes taking responsibility matters. If you are in an environment where people take responsibility for their lives you are likely to take responsibility for your life.
If someone communicates in way that seems like he doesn't take responsibility for his life than he can expect to be called on it.
If someone permanently refuses to take responsibility for their life but always does pity parties we ban the person.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Brutha

If someone permanently refuses to take responsibility for their life but always does pity parties we ban the person.

*weeps for RockChick*

Alas!

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by James81

I saw an interesting quote on facebook recently:

"He who fights monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil

I've noticed that several times (for myself, I mean). In order for me to tell someone they are being judgmental, I have to make a judgment in order to do that. In order for me to tell someone they are being an ass, I make myself an ass in that moment to do that.

That explains why telling yourself you're an ass makes an ass out of you. On the other hand, telling someone they are beautiful makes you beautiful.

"You're a good friend."
"Takes one to know one."