Drinking and driving

[ssandra]

Moved from another thread; Feel free to explore your own options and opinions when it comes to drinking and driving.

Originally Posted by rei

Not the most fun choice to make but I didn't feel like paying for a cab all the way to the burbs either.

Not drinking and driving has nothing to do with FUN! It has to do with valuing your own life AND that of others. Because, twist and turn it any way you want, but you are less likely to react as fast when you have had something to drink as when you are sober.

It is not just about you either. If you want to wrack your life by drinking and driving, fine. Unfortunately, there are other people on the road. A young dad, going home to his new family. A mother with her child.....

[rei]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Not drinking and driving has nothing to do with FUN! It has to do with valuing your own life AND that of others. Because, twist and turn it any way you want, but you are less likely to react as fast when you have had something to drink as when you are sober.

It is not just about you either. If you want to wrack your life by drinking and driving, fine. Unfortunately, there are other people on the road. A young dad, going home to his new family. A mother with her child.....

For one thing, it's less logical that there'd be a mom and young child on the road at 1 in the morning. Not impossible but improbable.

You're right reaction time slows. Honestly, there was a time (in the distant past) where I REALLY had no business getting behind the wheel of a car. My state last night didn't qualify for that, to me, partly because I've basically also learned how to drive intoxicated. I over-correct and usually end up driving ten miles under higher speed limits and not even five miles over for regular city driving speed limits.

I take your point, though, and it's not like this is something I do regularly because I don't usually get drunk when I go out. I'm sure my response to your complaint is cliche.

I'm a little surprised at the judgment. I guess we have different values around this topic, or maybe you made some assumptions based on how I explained the experience. I didn't feel like I was being unethical to drive myself home for the level of intoxication I was experiencing, but I did feel unethical to lie about it. There's been other times when I did decide to make alternate arrangements because I knew I had no business driving.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by rei

For one thing, it's less logical that there'd be a mom and young child on the road at 1 in the morning. Not impossible but improbable.

You're right reaction time slows. Honestly, there was a time (in the distant past) where I REALLY had no business getting behind the wheel of a car. My state last night didn't qualify for that, to me, partly because I've basically also learned how to drive intoxicated. I over-correct and usually end up driving ten miles under higher speed limits and not even five miles over for regular city driving speed limits.

I take your point, though, and it's not like this is something I do regularly because I don't usually get drunk when I go out. I'm sure my response to your complaint is cliche.

I'm a little surprised at the judgment. I guess we have different values around this topic, or maybe you made some assumptions based on how I explained the experience. I didn't feel like I was being unethical to drive myself home for the level of intoxication I was experiencing, but I did feel unethical to lie about it. There's been other times when I did decide to make alternate arrangements because I knew I had no business driving.

The bolded parts to me just sound like excuses. I can think of PLENTY of reasons why a mom and a child would be out at 1am driving... but that's not the point.

I am judgmental? Yes. You betcha I am. People not taking responsibility for their own lives is one thing. People putting other peoples lives in danger (and then making excuses like 'it wasn't that bad'), is a whole other game.

Don't drink and drive. Period. No excuses, no reasons can justify doing that.

"learning to drive intoxicated" is something I wouldn't have expected from a smart girl like you. You KNOW that that is impossible. Reaction times slow. That is not something you can teach yourself or not. Going 10 miles under the speed limit is still going pretty fast in a pretty big machine that is still capable of killing people!!

Will stop this conversation now, because I don't think this is the way Pyrogen wants this thread to go on... but I couldn't let it slide either. Too many people already do that, make excuses, say "it wasn't that bad" and way too many people die each year in drunk driving accidents without it being their fault. Unless and until we as a society STOP accepting any type of excuse to drink and drive, this will continue. Some day, my child will be walking in this world. I'll take my responsibility now and point out every single time when people are doing something so immensely stupid as drinking and driving. And why? Really? Either because you couldn't control yourself and stop drinking in time to drive (or not drink at all) or because you valued money more than other peoples lives......

Let me know if you want to continue this conversation and I'll split the thread.

[gingerbaker]

Originally Posted by rei

For one thing, it's less logical that there'd be a mom and young child on the road at 1 in the morning. Not impossible but improbable.

Oh, Rei. I like you, really I do,but this reasoning in particular is just dumb. Even if, perhaps, it is less likely that there is a child on the road (although, having traveled home late from my inlaws with my kids, and, having come home late many times from family outings as a kid, I think this is...far more likely than you may be assuming) there is certainly no reason whatsoever to assume the MOM (or dad) might not be out. I certainly head out many a time when my kids are home safe in bed (with a babysitter).

And, of course, that presumes that somehow the death of someone :not: a parent or child is somehow less tragic.

Originally Posted by rei

I'm a little surprised at the judgment. I guess we have different values around this topic, or maybe you made some assumptions based on how I explained the experience. I didn't feel like I was being unethical to drive myself home for the level of intoxication I was experiencing, but I did feel unethical to lie about it. There's been other times when I did decide to make alternate arrangements because I knew I had no business driving.

I have, of course, no way of knowing what level of intoxication you were operating under. Ultimately, only you will know if you were safe to drive. But if you felt unethical lying about how much you had had to drink...I suspect you do not believe truly that your level of sobriety would have withstood testing.

To risk something irreversible, for the simple sake of it being "too inconvenient" to take a cab...saddens me.

[rei]

I'm sure I'll get even more shaming, but I have to say I don't think I'm making excuses. I genuinely did not feel it was wrong to drive myself home. I'll explore my values to see why lying was a problem to me but driving wasn't. The cab would be expensive more than inconvenient. Maybe I could do with correcting my personal values on this, but I honestly didn't think it was wrong to drive. It's good to hear where everyone else stands on that, and pyro I'm sorry this messed up the vibe of your thread.

[ssandra]

My personal opinion? If you know you cannot afford a cap home, don't drink.

If you know that there aren't any caps around? Don't drink.

If you know that you have no other way to get home safe? Don't drink.


Personally, I know that alcohol has a very strong effect on me, so if I'm driving I don't drink at all. Not even one glass of wine at the beginning of the evening.

I know that others are more used to alcohol and can drink one or 2 glasses and still be capable of driving.

I think that those who drink too much (are either drunk or intoxicated) and drive should be punished WAY more heavy than they are now.

I also think that those of us who disagree with drinking and driving have a duty to stand up for that. To let those others know that this is NOT ok, this is NOT normal, and this is NOT acceptable.

[rei]

Hmm. I don't think it has as strong an effect on me.

I would not intentionally put others in harm's way either.

While being shamed for this, it's uncomfortable for me to bring up the fact that I drove under more precarious conditions in the past - but I did.

I do think it is possible to learn how to drive sober and also learn how to drive in a different state. Maybe that is why I don't currently think it was a problem.

But I would also really hate it if something bad happened related to driving intoxicated. Last night, I didn't feel so drunk as to think driving would be beyond my abilities to do so safely. Yes, there's been other times where I did feel this, and handled it differently.

At one point a car made a sudden move, which I was able to respond to successfully. Not really the best evidence to reevaluate my stance on this, because it currently just confirms for me that I know my limits pretty well.

Anyway, no I don't want something bad to happen to anyone else because of my choices. It just didn't feel like that was a possibility last night. It still doesn't, to be perfectly honest.

Let the shame storm come. I don't believe in driving recklessly. Somehow I don't feel like that is what I did, in this situation.

I'm actually finding this very interesting because I am such an ethical person, and yet don't seem to have what appears to most to be an ethical stance on this particular topic.

[Cado]

The simple fact is some people handle their liquor better than others, and truth be told people are constantly driving under conditions where it's unsafe for them to do so, such as when they're fatigued. I understand that part of the reason intoxication is so stigmatized is that you do it to yourself but when excuses are removed from the equation the same can be said for nearly every other unsafe condition.

The real crime here is not so much that people drive drunk, it's that they don't know their limitations and they aren't honest with themselves. Pride has led to more car crashes than beer has.

It reminds me of when I was a kid and my dad would be at the wheel, swerving all over the place when he hadn't had an ounce of alcohol. During the last years of his life there were a couple of times where he nearly fell asleep while going 55-70 miles an hour. I probably would have been safer riding with someone who had a few cans of beer in their system instead of him. The moral is I don't give a damn what you do before or while you're driving, just don't put my life at risk. I trust someone who knows their limits but I won't put my life in the hands of someone, even if they're fully alert, who doesn't.

[beast]

I completely lose respect for drunk drivers. I support permanently taking away their licenses and requiring they perform 3,000,000 hours of community service at the morgue. Drunk driving makes my blood boil.

[Anthoneee]

"Live like me, my way is the right way"

[gingerbaker]

Originally Posted by rei

Let the shame storm come. I don't believe in driving recklessly. Somehow I don't feel like that is what I did, in this situation.

I'm actually finding this very interesting because I am such an ethical person, and yet don't seem to have what appears to most to be an ethical stance on this particular topic.

I have no interest in people pounding down on you. I do hope that you do some serious thinking on this, and hopefully, re-evaluate. But for the record I still think you are an awesome person.

[beast]

I think you're awesome too, rei. But I wouldn't want to be out and about at 1 am in your town!

[rei]

I still can't tell why I don't feel like I acted wrongly last night.

There's times where I know I have no business behind the wheel of a car, and I don't try to drive anyway. If I'm traveling and get sleepy I pull over. In the past I ended up pulling over several times when I realized I was no longer able to drive safely for various reasons.

Maybe I don't know my limits, maybe I do. I'm used to my conscience being very clear about ethics - yes even if I'm in a mind-altered state I can hear it.

This is certainly making me rethink things, so I appreciate that.

[rei]

Originally Posted by beast

I think you're awesome too, rei. But I wouldn't want to be out and about at 1 am in your town!

Dude that's like the first time in months I was even out at 1am, much less with alcohol in my system. Last time I drank liquor beyond quiet appreciation of it, I brought the party to me and went to bed around midnight. Time before I stayed at a friend's house.

...I used to do some pretty unsafe things. I *thought* I had stopped that. I'm more mindful of consequences and more inclined to ethical behavior than I used to be. I don't know if I need more rigidity on that or not.

[James81]

I can drink a beer or two and drive fine. I don't agree with drinking more than that and driving though.

And let's not forget that other things impair your ability to drive as well. Like eating a big meal or even smoking a cigarette. Anytime you drive with a cold, talk on your phone, drive with a headache, adjust your radio, get lost in thought, or try to eat you are impairing your ability to drive to the same level or worse than one or two beers.

IMO, it's more important that you develop consistently good driving habits because nothing will protect you quite like unconsciously good habits. I noticed recently that when I get lost in thought and am not focusing on the road, that I wound up on the road to my house (and that wasn't where I was intending to go). It was a great illustration for me that your unconscious mind will always seek to bring you home. And "home" is what you do and where you are and who you are the most.

[ssandra]

There was a show on the BBC about 2 years ago (sorry, cannot remember the show) where they put those people who said that they could handle their liquor well to the test.

Those who were under the legal limits did more or less the same in the game they made them do (to do with reaction speed) as when they didn't drink. Those who were saying that they would still drive but were over the legal limit, were not doing the same at all. Not even close.

Those who admitted that they would be too drunk to drive did very very bad of course...

I don't buy the "I hold my liquor well" talk. Sure, you might not seem drunk, but your reaction time is slower. Period.

Same with driving when too tired or too ill to pay attention btw....

[Mounds]

Out of all the people who have ever gotten behind a wheel drunk, I wonder what percentage of them thought to themselves, "There is a high probability that I'm going to have a problem". I'd hazard around 0%. I think most of them are thinking, "I'm fine!" or "I'm good enough to drive". They'll maintain that delusion of grandeur right up until cold, hard reality smacks them in the face.

Sometimes you get lucky and reality doesn't catch up to you. Other times, you aren't so lucky. Depending on your situation, you could go from losing your license to dying a horrible death.

Go for a few ride alongs with EMS and wait until you see a few people get squished in car accidents. Its always the same ♥♥♥♥♥, different pile. The same delusions, the same result. No one knows what they have until it's gone.

[BillyTheAdult]

I have to agree with mounds. People who have been drinking aren't exaclt renowned for their good judgment.

[elucidate]

I have very strong feelings opposed to drink driving, and drink drivers.

Drivers in general, tend to adopt this attitude of arrogance and invincibility when they get behind the wheel, drunk or not, they think they own the road. They get impatient and speed, and justify it to themselves that they are being careful and they are smart, when it only takes a squirrel to jump out in front of them, especially at night, and it's swerve city.

Anyone who drinks and drives is not really adopting a caring attitude towards others on the road, they are thinking of themselves primarily...period. The road is a dangerous place where anything can happen, so it's hard to not think that people who do this aren't thinking "oh, it will never happen to me, no ones around, it's harmless"...which is an attitude that is removed from reality, as I see it anyway.

Yes, as Cado said, there are just as many sober drivers who shouldn't be on the road, and even though I have such strong feelings against drink driving, it would be dishonest of me to not admit that I have found myself in situations where I didn't have a lot of money and needed to get home, and accepted a ride from a workmate home, who was off his face! Was it a wise decision...no way. Did I make it home safely...yes!

It's a gamble. What makes it even more dangerous is that people who do this regularly and get away with it, that is, don't hurt anyone, keep doing it and think they will never crash...but it's just a matter of when really.

It's not a smart thing to do, it's not safe...but people can do it without causing any harm to anyone...until they do, and I'm sure you wouldn't want that on your conscience Rei.

I have to admit I was blown away to learn that you do this with such a blase attitude, when I know you are a very caring person. I'm baffled to be honest, but I know we all have our little contradictions.

I've interacted with people who have killed pregnant mothers in cars when they were young and stupid and drunk in the early hours of the morning, and they are still haunted by it 15 years later.

What usually happens is they end up killing someone else and get off with just a few bruises and a lifetime of guilt to eat away at them. It's lose/lose for everyone, and I know that's not what you are about.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes, as Cado said, there are just as many sober drivers who shouldn't be on the road, and even though I have such strong feelings against drink driving, it would be dishonest of me to not admit that I have found myself in situations where I didn't have a lot of money and needed to get home, and accepted a ride from a workmate home, who was off his face! Was it a wise decision...no way. Did I make it home safely...yes!

I'm glad you made it home safely. One of the main reasons why I always make sure I have the money to get home on my own, no matter what, is that I feel that accepting rides from people who drink and drive sends them a message of "it's ok, it is not that bad" and I cannot and will not accept it.

I'm glad that rei was ok and I'm even more glad that this thread has her thinking. And maybe some others who aren't brave enough to admit that they drink and drive think some more about this as well.

I feel very strongly that it is all our responsibility to make sure that people know this is not accepted. Not laughing at stories about drunk driving. Not accepting rides from people who are drunk (or have been drinking), saying something when they are drunk and getting in a car anyway....

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I'm glad you made it home safely. One of the main reasons why I always make sure I have the money to get home on my own, no matter what, is that I feel that accepting rides from people who drink and drive sends them a message of "it's ok, it is not that bad" and I cannot and will not accept it.

Yes, it definitely drove home the need to make sure I always have money on me, wherever I am. I agree that it does send that message, and it's definitely not the message I want to send to anyone. It's not ok, but it's amazing how quickly one can be brainwashed into thinking it is, even if they do have strong feelings opposed to it.

I'm glad that rei was ok and I'm even more glad that this thread has her thinking. And maybe some others who aren't brave enough to admit that they drink and drive think some more about this as well.

I feel very strongly that it is all our responsibility to make sure that people know this is not accepted. Not laughing at stories about drunk driving. Not accepting rides from people who are drunk (or have been drinking), saying something when they are drunk and getting in a car anyway....

I hope so to, it's an important issue if we all want to create a more caring environment for everyone. Accepting the unacceptable isn't helpful for achieving that...and there are plenty of people who do already.

I know that I have sent mixed messages to people about this myself, and it really needs to be something to take a hard line with, IMO. I admit my judgement was not too sane at the time.

[bluestar]

Drinking and driving?
Just wouldn't do it. End of.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by bluestar

Drinking and driving?
Just wouldn't do it. End of.

Ya seriously. I can't believe this is even a discussion. This also goes for cold medicine, extremely tired or high. Unless you live out in the boonies with no other people around you for miles. Then go nuts and swerve all around your property.

[SterlingBullets]

You won´t be able to change this habit until you
actually experience a change in personality, and values.

Other people WILL take control of this habit for you if you
are not able to do it yourself, but at that point it is usually
already too late.

In harmony with your current values; is there a better way to
save your money(?)

#10

[JDuff]

I did it once and looking back I am so ashamed and also pleased that I was never caught. It's one of those terrible moments in life (if you cause a crash or get caught) and it is definitely not cool!

The problem is if you are drunk you are cocky and over-estimate yourself. So as a rule, it is never ok to "see how you feel" - it's just a no-no. End of.

p.s. I know people who have died from alcohol related accidents, as well as someone who crashed whilst drink driving and was in a coma for a week

[sorter]

The insidious thing about drunk driving is some people can do it for years without
a problem until that one time. And once is way too much.

I liken it to the rule responsible gun owners use.
Never ever point your gun at something you're not willing to shoot even if you're 100% sure it isn't loaded.
One mistake is too much.

Although, I think someone who knows they're over the legal limit and drives as carefully as they can
are safer drivers than people who text or talk on the phone while driving.
I trust I'll get a sympathetic jury after I've killed someone who hit me while texting.
.

[Amira]

Drinking and driving is something I can't wrap my head around. I live in a state with probably some of the most lenient DUI laws in the US. It's pathetic because giving someone a slap on the wrist won't change their behavior. People don't get into any "serious" trouble (and by serious I mean a few weeks of work-release "jail") until the 3rd one. It's not a felony until the 5th. FIVE. It has kind of allowed for the emergence of this whole culture and state of mind around here that it's not that big of a deal.

I've personally been witness to multiple hit-and-runs of intoxicated drivers and every time I just think about how hard it would be to live with myself if I were that driver. And when each driver was finally caught, they all claimed they thought they were okay enough to drive.

Honestly, there are times when I'm pretty certain that I'd be okay to drive after a few drinks, but I won't. I just won't take that risk. It's not worth it. Thankfully I live close to where I usually go out.

[elucidate]

There are also places where drink drivers can go, after a certain time to try and reclaim their licences back!

Apparently second chances can be had for any driver who can prove they have changed and will not repeat the behavior...though most who do manage to convince the person to give them back their license go onto continually drink drive...usually until someone dies!

To me, this is just insane. Repeat offenders deserve to never get their license back, they can walk as far as I'm concerned, because they have proved that they aren't responsable enough and nor do they care enough about the lives of others, let alone their own.

I was once faced with the "opportunity" to become one of the people who give drink drivers back their license and I refused to go for the position. There is no way I would EVER give someone who had been charged with drink driving back their license. To me, that would be the same as been an accomplice to murder, because eventually they will kill someone, and it won't be themselves.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by JDuff

The problem is if you are drunk you are cocky and over-estimate yourself. So as a rule, it is never ok to "see how you feel" - it's just a no-no. End of.

One of my "rules" is that before I drink (until drunk or just a glass or 2) I make up my mind on several things and stick with that decision.

In my drunken state I might think "oh, it's no big deal", but I know that I decided different when sober so I'll follow that guideline.

I do this with how I get home, if I'd have sex with someone, if I accept a ride home from someone, until where I stop drinking, etc.

I found that this is the only way for me, to keep myself from doing stupid things when I'm drunk. And it works.
one of my rules is simply "Don't drink and drive". Not a drop for me.

[Mounds]

There's been several instances where I drive somewhere, drink too much and have to cycle fifteen miles the next day to get my truck As my dad always likes to say, "Man at night, man in the morning".