Is it good to be 'bad' and bad to be 'good'?

[elucidate]

What do you think, and why?

[ssandra]

I think it is good to be yourself. Regardless of what others or society tells you you "should" be being.

[Cado]

Define "good"

[secrets0stolen]

Yeah define either of those terms...

It seems like your asking "It is x to be -x and -x to be x?"

[elucidate]

It does sound a bit vague.

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

I know this is all or nothing thinking and she does have ptsd so it is perhaps too black and white, but I thought I'd pose the question here to see what you folk think.

does that make more sense now that there is context?

[GhostGoat]

This reminds me of the old Mae West quote, "When I'm good, I'm very good. When I'm bad, I'm better".

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It does sound a bit vague.

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

I know this is all or nothing thinking and she does have ptsd so it is perhaps too black and white, but I thought I'd pose the question here to see what you folk think.

does that make more sense now that there is context?

Way more sense. I think that rage and even a desire for vengeance can be normal, although revenge burns people out just as much as suppression.

If she means that being "nice" (ladylike comes to mind...) all the time means you get trampled on--no doubt. Nice =/= kind =/= good =/=nice, however.
Nice just means socially acceptable, and while niceness can certainly be used to express kindness, indiscriminate niceness is kind of set up to screw you. And the conflation of niceness w/kindness w/goodness, is also a bit of a mind****.

But in her case...win what? What do evil people win?

And yes, I agree with your assessment that she's being to black and white. More than likely, she's being understandably reactionary.

[Showtime]

It's good to be you.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Way more sense. I think that rage and even a desire for vengeance can be normal, although revenge burns people out just as much as suppression.

If she means that being "nice" (ladylike comes to mind...) all the time means you get trampled on--no doubt. Nice =/= kind =/= good =/=nice, however.
Nice just means socially acceptable, and while niceness can certainly be used to express kindness, indiscriminate niceness is kind of set up to screw you. And the conflation of niceness w/kindness w/goodness, is also a bit of a mind****.

But in her case...win what? What do evil people win?

And yes, I agree with your assessment that she's being to black and white. More than likely, she's being understandably reactionary.

Well yes. She is extremely reactionary and has been through a lot. Plus which she packs a gun and is fully trained to use it, so...it's a pretty dangerous mix really...however, I was trying to get my head around how she thinks.

I feel the same way as what you have said here secrets, and also that rage and thoughts of vengeance can also be channeled into more productive things rather than just plain destruction, which she seems to be all for.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Showtime

It's good to be you.

Yes, it is good to be me.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It does sound a bit vague.

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

I know this is all or nothing thinking and she does have ptsd so it is perhaps too black and white, but I thought I'd pose the question here to see what you folk think.

does that make more sense now that there is context?

Yep.

It's a very bitter perspective even if it's founded on some truth. There's nothing inherently destructive about conventional "good" but it can turn that way pretty easily if you get someone who's either so dedicated to it they would act by force or spread themselves too thin.

On the other side of things, revenge has its place and contrary to popular belief it can actually be enriching for both sides if they see the opportunity in it, but it's an action that requires restraint. Too much and you'll destroy yourself and everything you cherish. You can't embody it and not be torn apart; it devolves into a scarcity mindset and that triggers desperation which is deadly when mixed with powerful emotion. The only way it can serve a positive purpose is if it's built up and released. It's another way of letting go.

She's not doing that. For her, good or bad is bad because she will always take it to an unhealthy extreme. I mean I don't know her but that sounds like her type. For anyone else, it depends on where they're at and what they're inclined to do. Everything has its place.

[supertom]

what can I say, I've always been bad, baby.

I think being bad is better because it allows you to let go of social conditioning, except when your the rebellious bad type cause than your just fighting against conditioning. The main misconception is that being good will result in good things happening and thats the main incentive for being good.

[st33med]

Bad to the bone. *dananadana*
B-b-b-b-b-baaaaddddd. *dananadana*
Baaaaaaad to the bone.

[elucidate]

Thanks Cado, I knew you would have an interesting perspective to offer on the subject.

it does sound like that's her way of thinking, and just from starting to get to know her, it sounds like hers is an unhealthy perspective , though she thinks it is the way to go.

I aim to remain detached from any judgement with her though, and she feels heard by me, so...

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Yep.

It's a very bitter perspective even if it's founded on some truth. There's nothing inherently destructive about conventional "good" but it can turn that way pretty easily if you get someone who's either so dedicated to it they would act by force or spread themselves too thin.

On the other side of things, revenge has its place and contrary to popular belief it can actually be enriching for both sides if they see the opportunity in it, but it's an action that requires restraint. Too much and you'll destroy yourself and everything you cherish. You can't embody it and not be torn apart; it devolves into a scarcity mindset and that triggers desperation which is deadly when mixed with powerful emotion. The only way it can serve a positive purpose is if it's built up and released. It's another way of letting go.

She's not doing that. For her, good or bad is bad because she will always take it to an unhealthy extreme. I mean I don't know her but that sounds like her type. For anyone else, it depends on where they're at and what they're inclined to do. Everything has its place.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

what can I say, I've always been bad, baby.

I think being bad is better because it allows you to let go of social conditioning, except when your the rebellious bad type cause than your just fighting against conditioning. The main misconception is that being good will result in good things happening and thats the main incentive for being good.

yes.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Yep.

It's a very bitter perspective even if it's founded on some truth. There's nothing inherently destructive about conventional "good" but it can turn that way pretty easily if you get someone who's either so dedicated to it they would act by force or spread themselves too thin.

On the other side of things, revenge has its place and contrary to popular belief it can actually be enriching for both sides if they see the opportunity in it, but it's an action that requires restraint. Too much and you'll destroy yourself and everything you cherish. You can't embody it and not be torn apart; it devolves into a scarcity mindset and that triggers desperation which is deadly when mixed with powerful emotion. The only way it can serve a positive purpose is if it's built up and released. It's another way of letting go.

She's not doing that. For her, good or bad is bad because she will always take it to an unhealthy extreme. I mean I don't know her but that sounds like her type. For anyone else, it depends on where they're at and what they're inclined to do. Everything has its place.

In what way is revenge beneficial? Or, in what ways could it be iyo?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

In what way is revenge beneficial? Or, in what ways could it be iyo?

And how is it beneficial for BOTH sides? I mean, one side is coming out the bad end, so how is the receiver of the revenge getting the benefits of it...unless I have misinterpreted what you meant?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

In what way is revenge beneficial? Or, in what ways could it be iyo?

On the part of the person seeking revenge, it says, "I'm important." That's not a narcissistic sentiment, at least it doesn't have to be. It's about not acting as a doormat and not sitting idly by while injustices against yourself (and perhaps others) go unacknowledged.

On the part of the revengee, it can serve as a wake up call. "That's what I've been doing to people." Sometimes they don't realize the impact they've had until they've had a taste of their own medicine and no amount of loving and forgiveness will do the trick. Regardless it should certainly make them uncomfortable and that is a catalyst for growth for anyone who will use it. The alternative is a deeper sleep, which truth be told could happen if they felt safe and loved, too. It's up to them to determine their experience regardless of whether those they've harmed stand up to them or forgive them and let it lie.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

On the part of the person seeking revenge, it says, "I'm important." That's not a narcissistic sentiment, at least it doesn't have to be. It's about not acting as a doormat and not sitting idly by while injustices against yourself (and perhaps others) go unacknowledged.

On the part of the revengee, it can serve as a wake up call. "That's what I've been doing to people." Sometimes they don't realize the impact they've had until they've had a taste of their own medicine and no amount of loving and forgiveness will do the trick. Regardless it should certainly make them uncomfortable and that is a catalyst for growth for anyone who will use it. The alternative is a deeper sleep, which truth be told could happen if they felt safe and loved, too. It's up to them to determine their experience regardless of whether those they've harmed stand up to them or forgive them and let it lie.

I think I understand this. Some people only learn this way, and others don't require such a shock to learn the lesson. I'm not sure if that is how she is thinking though?

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

On the part of the person seeking revenge, it says, "I'm important." That's not a narcissistic sentiment, at least it doesn't have to be. It's about not acting as a doormat and not sitting idly by while injustices against yourself (and perhaps others) go unacknowledged.

That last part sounds more like self defense than revenge to me. I think the best way to acknowledge injustices is to work to stop them, and that can look like conventional revenge, or not. Just hurting someone who hurt you I don't think is gonna do the trick--it has to be more strategic than that.

It can serve a person's emotional need I suppose, but it could end up crippling them too.

On the part of the revengee, it can serve as a wake up call. "That's what I've been doing to people." Sometimes they don't realize the impact they've had until they've had a taste of their own medicine and no amount of loving and forgiveness will do the trick. Regardless it should certainly make them uncomfortable and that is a catalyst for growth for anyone who will use it. The alternative is a deeper sleep, which truth be told could happen if they felt safe and loved, too. It's up to them to determine their experience regardless of whether those they've harmed stand up to them or forgive them and let it lie.

yeah, you never really know how someone else is going to react. I think that pretty much anything can be turned into a catalyst for growth, but that it's up to that person doing the growing. In a different situation, someone who is abused can use that for growth, but did the abuser help them grow? Do they get credit for that? No, the victim turned their life circumstances into a growth experience. Similarly, the person who inflicts damage on another doesn't get credit or blame for anything it "makes" the other do. (Even though revenge seems less vile than strait up abuse.)

[Just One More]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

On the part of the person seeking revenge, it says, "I'm important." That's not a narcissistic sentiment, at least it doesn't have to be. It's about not acting as a doormat and not sitting idly by while injustices against yourself (and perhaps others) go unacknowledged.

On the part of the revengee, it can serve as a wake up call. "That's what I've been doing to people." Sometimes they don't realize the impact they've had until they've had a taste of their own medicine and no amount of loving and forgiveness will do the trick. Regardless it should certainly make them uncomfortable and that is a catalyst for growth for anyone who will use it. The alternative is a deeper sleep, which truth be told could happen if they felt safe and loved, too. It's up to them to determine their experience regardless of whether those they've harmed stand up to them or forgive them and let it lie.

Could you please give an example of an injustice where you believe revenge is healthy? What is in it for me by getting revenge?


"That's what I've been doing to people"

They already know what they're doing; they're doing it! What they might not know is how their actions have made you feel. If they don't seem to care about making you feel bad even though you have done everything reasonable in your power to make your boundaries clear, do you try to make them feel bad (revenge) or do you accept that they are not a match for what you want in your life and you ditch them?


I find this similar to focusing on things you don't want. Brooding over revenge keeps you attached to your pain. Feels good man :/

[elucidate]

Does it always have to be physical force as a means for revenge, for the person to get the message, or can it be achieved some other way?

And, do females tend to respond to this form of revenge in the same way as many males do?

[supertom]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Does it always have to be physical force as a means for revenge, for the person to get the message, or can it be achieved some other way?

Death stare !!!

thats what you were thinking right

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

Death stare !!!

thats what you were thinking right

Well, that was not so much revenge as psychological mind games...but yeah!

[Cado]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

That last part sounds more like self defense than revenge to me. I think the best way to acknowledge injustices is to work to stop them, and that can look like conventional revenge, or not. Just hurting someone who hurt you I don't think is gonna do the trick--it has to be more strategic than that.

It can serve a person's emotional need I suppose, but it could end up crippling them too.

The line between justice and revenge is very thin and mostly boils down to what's socially acceptable. In my book, if you're doing it to honor yourself it's more revenge than it is anything else, though it may be justice as you define it.

The difference between the different kinds of revenge is that one ends with the revengee still holding on to their pain and letting it tear at them, meaning there's no rest in retribution and indeed even more pain as a result. The other is a swift strike which results in letting go and moving on. (See: The Count of Monte Cristo)

As for what will be beneficial to the other person, it's always a crapshoot even if you choose to forgive them. You can't give someone something they won't ask for, you can only choose to give it to them or disconnect. All things can be used as a resource and any action which results from conscious intent is more likely to cause it than something which is purely unconscious.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Just One More

They already know what they're doing; they're doing it!

Not true. People's capacity for self-delusion is mind boggling.

I find this similar to focusing on things you don't want. Brooding over revenge keeps you attached to your pain. Feels good man :/

Well yeah, if you brood it's bad juju. If you act and release it's a drastic increase to your confidence and power. It's far better than holding it in.

As for what situation would be appropriate, I don't think there is an appropriate or inappropriate situation. It's entirely up to the person doing it. Any circumstance where there's an injustice, real or perceived, can be used as an example. Whether it's going too far or if it will be more destructive than cathartic depends on factors I've already outlined.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

The line between justice and revenge is very thin and mostly boils down to what's socially acceptable. In my book, if you're doing it to honor yourself it's more revenge than it is anything else, though it may be justice as you define it.

No, I agree. I don't really believe in the concept of justice. (Unless administered by chance--"poetic justice"--or by a supreme being that would know "justice". Although, who knows if there's a supreme being that organizes such a thing?)

However, I believe in self defense; and I believe in stopping abusers who've proven what they'll respond to, and what they won't. I believe defensive rights always trump offensive "rights", but I don't know what I believe about the rights of someone who's been violated (aka, their "right" to revenge). Been mulling that over recently.

The difference between the different kinds of revenge is that one ends with the revengee still holding on to their pain and letting it tear at them, meaning there's no rest in retribution and indeed even more pain as a result. The other is a swift strike which results in letting go and moving on.

Yeah, that's the difference between what would be emotionally healthy for a person and what would simply compound it. I think the same thing could be said about non-action as well, that's there a way to do it that will destroy you, and a way of healing.

As for what will be beneficial to the other person, it's always a crapshoot even if you choose to forgive them. You can't give someone something they won't ask for, you can only choose to give it to them or disconnect. All things can be used as a resource and any action which results from conscious intent is more likely to cause it than something which is purely unconscious.

Agreed. That's why I don't think it should really be factored in much at all--at least the secondary effects, what they'll do with it (unless of course, there's a clear correlation with rates of doing the thing again, cause that goes back to my first priority of stopping them from hurting people). The direct action is still a direct action against someone and in my mind is factored in.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

(See: The Count of Monte Cristo)

That is the second time someone's read my mind tonight.

[Just One More]

Nothing has left me feeling more powerful than telling someone that I was hurt by something they did, and then letting them know what I expect in the future and why I find it a reasonable expectation. This device hasn't backfired since I found the courage to use it.

This has the potential to alienate people who can't help but respond violently or defensively. It's a good kick up the bum to get out there and find like-minded people that's for sure...

[Cado]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Agreed. That's why I don't think it should really be factored in much at all--at least the secondary effects, what they'll do with it (unless of course, there's a clear correlation with rates of doing the thing again, cause that goes back to my first priority of stopping them from hurting people). The direct action is still a direct action against someone and in my mind is factored in.

I factor it in because it's a common belief that only positive, rather conventionally positive, intentions and actions yield a net positive on the whole. That's not the case.

I think Gandhi said something like, "non-violence is pointless if it's a cloak for aggression." That's basically what I'm saying. It's much better to be honest and act on your feelings than it is to bottle them up and pretend to take the high road. Real forgiveness takes a lot of strength and while you may still take action to assert yourself but it's not something a lot of people can do.

Granted, revenge and release isn't particularly easy either, but those are the two routes someone can take in their growth. There isn't an option aside from sleep which doesn't include one of those elements.