Is it good to be 'bad' and bad to be 'good'?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Just One More

Nothing has left me feeling more powerful than telling someone that I was hurt by something they did, and then letting them know what I expect in the future and why I find it a reasonable expectation. This device hasn't backfired since I found the courage to use it.

This has the potential to alienate people who can't help but respond violently or defensively. It's a good kick up the bum to get out there and find like-minded people that's for sure...

Honesty is very powerful, especially with someone you intend to keep in your life. However, that approach seems to require something from the other person. I find that methods which rely on that are less effective than ones that hinge entirely on what I feel and think and choose to do in response. But then what you talk about can be that choice-our issues with others don't simply disappear when we do inner work and we may need to talk to them like that to get things done. The important thing with any method is that it's inspired action as opposed to forceful action.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Does it always have to be physical force as a means for revenge, for the person to get the message, or can it be achieved some other way?

Personally I think physical force should be avoided in any situation it isn't absolutely necessary. It's the crassest use of one's power and generally results from a belief like, "I can't get things done any other way."

There are exceptions. Surely in more dangerous parts of the world a strike first policy may be the only way to stay alive.

[elucidate]

What if though, the person you seek vengeance upon is nowhere to be found, as in, they've up and left the state or country and you cannot trace them anywhere...what then? Do you just concede to defeat and that they got away with it, and be forced to forgive or at least find a healthy channel for your aggression and rage, or do you spend massive amounts of personal time and energy trying to find them?

I've experienced this scenario, and my only option was to admit defeat and find some way of channeling the aggression and rage into something positive, like volunteering for an organization that is activist based in the environmental and social change arena, and raising my self esteem that way whilst dealing with the fact that he got away with it!

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

I factor it in because it's a common belief that only positive, rather conventionally positive, intentions and actions yield a net positive on the whole. That's not the case.

I think Gandhi said something like, "non-violence is pointless if it's a cloak for aggression." That's basically what I'm saying. It's much better to be honest and act on your feelings than it is to bottle them up and pretend to take the high road. Real forgiveness takes a lot of strength and while you may still take action to assert yourself but it's not something a lot of people can do.

Granted, revenge and release isn't particularly easy either, but those are the two routes someone can take in their growth. There isn't an option aside from sleep which doesn't include one of those elements.

[elucidate]

I think this is true as well, for the most part. There is nothing that cannot be resolved with intelligent communication and the courage to say "you really hurt me, and that's not ok", and often people who act violently to get revenge aren't that intelligent, or simply aren't very good at communicating intelligently and only know one way to go.

If faced with these types though, I think violence is the only option as it's the only message they will understand.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Personally I think physical force should be avoided in any situation it isn't absolutely necessary. It's the crassest use of one's power and generally results from a belief like, "I can't get things done any other way."

There are exceptions. Surely in more dangerous parts of the world a strike first policy may be the only way to stay alive.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Just One More

Nothing has left me feeling more powerful than telling someone that I was hurt by something they did, and then letting them know what I expect in the future and why I find it a reasonable expectation. This device hasn't backfired since I found the courage to use it.

This has the potential to alienate people who can't help but respond violently or defensively. It's a good kick up the bum to get out there and find like-minded people that's for sure...

Assertiveness is always the most self respecting way to go...and I think we all need to learn how to do it better!

[howtolivehappily]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Is it good to be 'bad' and bad to be 'good'?

It's not "good" to constantly neglect your desires out of fear of disapproval. It's OK to say NO sometimes. You can say NO compassionately.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

This sounds to me like traumatized thinking. This woman needs some help - before she commits a crime.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

On the part of the person seeking revenge, it says, "I'm important." That's not a narcissistic sentiment, at least it doesn't have to be. It's about not acting as a doormat and not sitting idly by while injustices against yourself (and perhaps others) go unacknowledged.

I think that you are confusing revenge with assertiveness. You can state your position calmly and clearly without being a dick.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

On the part of the revengee, it can serve as a wake up call. "That's what I've been doing to people." Sometimes they don't realize the impact they've had until they've had a taste of their own medicine and no amount of loving and forgiveness will do the trick. Regardless it should certainly make them uncomfortable and that is a catalyst for growth for anyone who will use it. The alternative is a deeper sleep, which truth be told could happen if they felt safe and loved, too. It's up to them to determine their experience regardless of whether those they've harmed stand up to them or forgive them and let it lie.

Marshall Rosenberg has a book about anger. I should blog about it some time, because it's really brilliant.

He says, that anger arises when instead of directing our attention to our unmet needs, we focus on making others wrong. As a result we reap hostility, and the probability that we actually get our needs met is very low.

Sometimes, anger is triggered by our need for compassion. We want the other person to know how much we've suffered. This IS possible without actually hurting the other person.

I'm not putting it well enough. It's so much better said in the book.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by howtolivehappily

I think that you are confusing revenge with assertiveness. You can state your position calmly and clearly without being a dick.

You can have revenge without being a dick, either. I think people always think something drastic when they hear that word. It can be very simple, very elegant, just a little reminder that you give will often find its way back to you-if not by divine intervention then from the people you've given it to.

He says, that anger arises when instead of directing our attention to our unmet needs, we focus on making others wrong. As a result we reap hostility, and the probability that we actually get our needs met is very low.

Sometimes, anger is triggered by our need for compassion. We want the other person to know how much we've suffered. This IS possible without actually hurting the other person.

I'm not putting it well enough. It's so much better said in the book.

I've read things like that before. Nearly every self-help book currently on the market repeats that sentiment, to which I respond:

Everything popular is wrong.

That's not always the case, but while I think there's some truth to statements like the one you're making, there's another side to our so-called "negative" emotions which is rarely explored. Plus it discounts that what comes out isn't necessarily what comes back; that's determined by whatever is happening on a deeper level, not what you see on the surface. Maybe there is a divine judge somewhere but there are plenty of people who do what they like with no regard for others and never suffer for it, at least not through unfavorable circumstances or retribution.

That you reap what you sow is a given, that it will perfectly mirror what you've put out is not. Personally I think that's irrelevant; the question is what feels right to you? Because at the end of the day you can only determine what you will do.

[timebomb]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It does sound a bit vague.

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

I know this is all or nothing thinking and she does have ptsd so it is perhaps too black and white, but I thought I'd pose the question here to see what you folk think.

does that make more sense now that there is context?

I have thought the same myself. When I see people who do unjust acts and hurt others all the time thrive, I wonder if there is any justice and I wonder why I should not pay them back in the same coin. Simultaneously, I do feel that it pays to be good, although the only one who rewards you is your own self. You feel good within when you are "good" and that's it.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by timebomb

I have thought the same myself. When I see people who do unjust acts and hurt others all the time thrive, I wonder if there is any justice and I wonder why I should not pay them back in the same coin. Simultaneously, I do feel that it pays to be good, although the only one who rewards you is your own self. You feel good within when you are "good" and that's it.

Yes, I used to reflect on this quite a lot when I was much younger, and it's not really fair how good people get screwed and people who walk around messing peoples lives up without even knowing or caring what they are doing, get promoted, or end up rich and nothing seems to happen to them.

I came to the same conclusion about rewarding myself by feeling good as much as possible by being good, not because society tells me it's the right or best way to be, but because , from my own experience, I feel better when I am good as compared to when I am being bad towards someone else...though with certain forms of revenge, it can feel pretty good I have to say But I don't often have much cause to be vengeful these days.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by howtolivehappily

It's not "good" to constantly neglect your desires out of fear of disapproval. It's OK to say NO sometimes. You can say NO compassionately.

I think I know what you are saying here.

This sounds to me like traumatized thinking. This woman needs some help - before she commits a crime.

Well yes, I did mention that she has ptsd rather severely. She is not in a very well place right now, and I was trying to give alternative perspectives for her to consider...but she is pretty happy with her take on things...though, the last time I looked, another woman had offered another perspective which she seemed to resonate with, so there's hope?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes, I used to reflect on this quite a lot when I was much younger, and it's not really fair how good people get screwed and people who walk around messing peoples lives up without even knowing or caring what they are doing, get promoted, or end up rich and nothing seems to happen to them.

The only difference between them and the "good" who suffer is they have no resistance to getting what they desire. That's what I think a lot of people miss-you can in fact be a total dick and live a magnificent life if you're internally congruent with that.

Likewise, you can be good and live in abundance. However, there seems to be a widespread belief, a cancer if you will, that says it's good to be poor and downtrodden and all of that and only the bad rise to a higher station. That's nonsense.

There is no fair or unfair in the universe, there is only what you make. That we have collectively made a reality where horrible people are able to thrive means that's what we live-but we can just as readily do something else.

[Angela]

Veangeful thoughts and actions are really ineffective, I think, in being head over heels in love with your life. Good? Bad? I don't know about that, but they just generally don't work very well if you want to love your life.

One big reason for that is that revenge is a win/lose intention, and it's effectively a lose/lose outcome. They did something that leaves them *deserving* of "justice" (really, vengeance), and that kind of thinking sets you (the revenge-wreaker) up to be the meter or justice -- the Judge -- at a time when your access to resources like flexibility are limited by your fury. Anger narrows your perspective, for a positive purpose when you're dealing with authentic threat, but that narrow focus also makes inauthentic threat look like it's authentically threatening you.

My experience is that people who are head over heels in love with their lives use a win/win intention pretty much all of the time, and if they catch themselves using a win/lose, they address what has them feeling like someone needs to lose, rather than sloughing it off as "Well, nobody's perfect 100% of the time."

Revenge is also a great big *should* you do at the world and I believe I have had quite a say already about those!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

The only difference between them and the "good" who suffer is they have no resistance to getting what they desire. That's what I think a lot of people miss-you can in fact be a total dick and live a magnificent life if you're internally congruent with that.

Likewise, you can be good and live in abundance. However, there seems to be a widespread belief, a cancer if you will, that says it's good to be poor and downtrodden and all of that and only the bad rise to a higher station. That's nonsense.

There is no fair or unfair in the universe, there is only what you make. That we have collectively made a reality where horrible people are able to thrive means that's what we live-but we can just as readily do something else.

This makes sense to me now. Back then before I understood these things though, it didn't get it at all.

A psychopath can go about getting what he or she wants because they are unaffected by how they treat others, so they aren't hampered or bogged down by guilt or remorse, and feel entitled to get what they want, so they do. They just move on, leaving the victims in their path who often take years to recover from what they themselves got over as soon as it was inflicted. It's not 'fair' but that's the way it is.

Downtrodden people operate from a scarcity mindset, so they keep getting what they expect to get too!

[elucidate]

This is a pretty good analysis of it I think, although I did mention that this woman is not head over heals with her life...she is in deep pain and doesn't feel safe, so she is operating from a fear vibration, which unfortunately will probably draw to her the situations she most wants to avoid.

She is not worried about concepts like win/win or win/lose, she is operating from "I will protect myself no matter who I have to kill"

Originally Posted by Angela

Veangeful thoughts and actions are really ineffective, I think, in being head over heels in love with your life. Good? Bad? I don't know about that, but they just generally don't work very well if you want to love your life.

One big reason for that is that revenge is a win/lose intention, and it's effectively a lose/lose outcome. They did something that leaves them *deserving* of "justice" (really, vengeance), and that kind of thinking sets you (the revenge-wreaker) up to be the meter or justice -- the Judge -- at a time when your access to resources like flexibility are limited by your fury. Anger narrows your perspective, for a positive purpose when you're dealing with authentic threat, but that narrow focus also makes inauthentic threat look like it's authentically threatening you.

My experience is that people who are head over heels in love with their lives use a win/win intention pretty much all of the time, and if they catch themselves using a win/lose, they address what has them feeling like someone needs to lose, rather than sloughing it off as "Well, nobody's perfect 100% of the time."

Revenge is also a great big *should* you do at the world and I believe I have had quite a say already about those!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by elucidate

This is a pretty good analysis of it I think, although I did mention that this woman is not head over heals with her life...she is in deep pain and doesn't feel safe, so she is operating from a fear vibration, which unfortunately will probably draw to her the situations she most wants to avoid.

She is not worried about concepts like win/win or win/lose, she is operating from "I will protect myself no matter who I have to kill"

To me, that sounds like a good person to allow to just fall out of my orbit!

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Angela

To me, that sounds like a good person to allow to just fall out of my orbit!

Well, she is on a support group for people with ptsd. I'm not great friends with her or anything, she is someone I spoke to a few times casually, and is not doing very well.

But yeah, I don't really go there very often, and I've been using it as a practise for gaining better counselling skills with listening etc., and gaging where I am at in my own recovery. I seem to be light years ahead of most people there at the moment.

Counselling is where my strengths lie...and I like the challenge. I seem to draw disturbed people into my world at times, and have been told I'd be good working in the mental health field, though I honestly don't think I could handle it energetically wise for very long. It's very draining, and I am not the best at shutting off my empathic side, so it's best I don't just now.

I don't intend to be great friends with her or anything, but she is there to recover like everyone else there. Hopefully she will come to see that it's worth working through her issues and co dependency...which I have been subtly encouraging her to.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Well, she is on a support group for people with ptsd....

That's a special situation -- she, like everyone in such a group, needs a safe, non-threatening space in which to work through her own issues, and find answers to her own questions.

She might very well need to wallow around in thoughts of vengeance, in that special safe space, as she works it through for herself.

(Unless she does TIME Techniques, of course. )

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's a special situation -- she, like everyone in such a group, needs a safe, non-threatening space in which to work through her own issues, and find answers to her own questions.

She might very well need to wallow around in thoughts of vengeance, in that special safe space, as she works it through for herself.

(Unless she does TIME Techniques, of course. )

Yes, well maybe I wasn't clear enough about that. That IS what the forum is for...for people to work through their issues and vent their feelings of revenge in a safe space, where they won't be judged. It's healthy really! Better she get it out there where she is supported than act on her impulses in the real world.

Did you know that Stephen King had ptsd. I wonder if Clive Barker did as well...holy cow, the things that spewed out of that mans imagination. Imagine what would happen if they DIDN'T vent it out...or on second thoughts, best not to imagine it really!

I haven't referred the TIME techniques to her just yet. I think she just needs to wallow for a while. She's been through a lot.

[magickmystik]

beyond good or bad

[Cran]

I believe that good and bad (or evil) have no meaning beyond the meaning society has instilled into them. Society is always in need of rules to function, and rules wirk better if people believe them to be true even beyond their own society (like, God-given, a human right etc.), because otherwise it is very difficult to hold people accountable for the rules (I am not talking about crimes, which can be punished and people can be made to adhere to laws by force, but things like "Be polite", "Respect your Elders").

Based on this view, I choose my actions by their usefulness to me alone. So my actions might be the same society defines as "good" or they might not be. As I am not honest and do not care about society, I'd be classified as "bad" if this would be known to people I interact with daily.
So, conlucsion: I think it is perfectly alright to be "bad" by another persons standards, but not being true to your own ones is unfulfilling, and going so much against the rules that you land yourself in prison is cowardice.

[Just Passing Through]

The problem with effective revenge is that having a hot head about the situation only works if the revenge is swift and immediate. Effective long term revenge requires hunting, and hunting requires a cool head. The catch 22 is that getting in the right state of mind to hunt and catch someone effectively will remove the emotions that may have lead to wanting to do so in the first place. Planning for their demise may very well remove the motivation. A hot head will make moves in a reactionary way and can easily be tripped up and exhaust themselves. Maybe it's a good thing though. The cool headedness gives someone a chance to evaluate things

[Just Passing Through]

It's interesting to note in samurai culture prolonged vengeance was frowned upon. It was considered more appropriate for vengeance to be dealt immediately, even if doing so would have no chance of success and there was a 100% chance of being cut down on the spot.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Just Passing Through

It's interesting to note in samurai culture prolonged vengeance was frowned upon. It was considered more appropriate for vengeance to be dealt immediately, even if doing so would have no chance of success and there was a 100% chance of being cut down on the spot.

Yes, that sounds appropriate, to use that desire for revenge straight away rather than let it become an obsession for years later, and destroy yourself from the lack of release. I think the samurai were as swift as their swords, and certainly not afraid to die in the process, if it would avenge their kin or loved ones.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Just Passing Through

The problem with effective revenge is that having a hot head about the situation only works if the revenge is swift and immediate. Effective long term revenge requires hunting, and hunting requires a cool head. The catch 22 is that getting in the right state of mind to hunt and catch someone effectively will remove the emotions that may have lead to wanting to do so in the first place. Planning for their demise may very well remove the motivation. A hot head will make moves in a reactionary way and can easily be tripped up and exhaust themselves. Maybe it's a good thing though. The cool headedness gives someone a chance to evaluate things

That's why they encourage sexual assault victims to fantasize about what they would do if they found their attacker. It allows the person their dignity to be restored, by giving them the chance to process the anger they feel and desire for revenge without putting themselves even further on the line, and they can just be free to do what they want to the person in the safety of their own mind, without having to go through the legal system which often fails the victim.

[Just Passing Through]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That's why they encourage sexual assault victims to fantasize about what they would do if they found their attacker. It allows the person their dignity to be restored, by giving them the chance to process the anger they feel and desire for revenge without putting themselves even further on the line, and they can just be free to do what they want to the person in the safety of their own mind, without having to go through the legal system which often fails the victim.

Emotional fantasies would not be a sober-headed practical approach to revenge and would only perpetuate the emotional complexes involved. True, it can put the victim in a position of feeling like less of a victim, which is perhaps better than being a poor baby, but I've fantasized about revenge and it has never helped me get over anything. The rage can still pop up many years later. Real planning and/or carrying out. That is the sober headed approach. Meditation on what occured in as much detail as possible, a clinical examination of the scene. That helps get out of the emo game.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Just Passing Through

Emotional fantasies would not be a sober-headed practical approach to revenge and would only perpetuate the emotional complexes involved. True, it can put the victim in a position of feeling like less of a victim, which is perhaps better than being a poor baby, but I've fantasized about revenge and it has never helped me get over anything. The rage can still pop up many years later. Real planning and/or carrying out. That is the sober headed approach. Meditation on what occured in as much detail as possible, a clinical examination of the scene. That helps get out of the emo game.

Sure.

It's better than nothing though from a victims perspective, but yes, the rage would be something they'd have to channel in some way if revenge was not feasible, say if the perp could not be found...

The activist scene is full of people who have channeled their rage into something more constructive.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It does sound a bit vague.

Ok, well, I am having this conversation with a woman who has stated that when it comes to her feelings of rage and desire for vengeance over those who have hurt her, she has concluded that it is 'good' to be 'bad' and 'bad' to be good, and thinks that good people end up destroying themselves, and evil people essentially 'win', and has declared herself to be évil'.

I know this is all or nothing thinking and she does have ptsd so it is perhaps too black and white, but I thought I'd pose the question here to see what you folk think.

does that make more sense now that there is context?

I... know somebody a bit like this. And that kind of thinking essentially destroyed that person's life.

It sounds like your friend is defining "good" as "nice" -- and is defining "nice" as "limp noodle doormat" -- and thinks that good people capitulate and let others walk all over them. So in order to be strong, she has to be "evil."

This mode of thinking is, uh, strongly warned against in every tradition I can think of. We have sayings like "what goes around comes around," "anger is drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die," "as you sow, so shall you reap" etc. There's also the whole concept of karma...

Karma means "action"; your karma is your past action, no more and no less. Thought is a kind of action, and so someone can quite easily poison themselves with their own thoughts. Deciding to be evil certainly sounds like one of those. It is impossible for someone to exact revenge on someone else without creating any karma for themselves. It's not necessary, anyway. "Evil" people don't "win." Nobody has to *do* anything to them. They do it all to themselves.

Originally Posted by GhostGoat

This reminds me of the old Mae West quote, "When I'm good, I'm very good. When I'm bad, I'm better".

rofl

[brendannz]

Well I dunno, but it is hip to be square

[elucidate]

Yes, well, that is what I said to her...that if I am gonna go around destroying other people I am really just destroying myself as I see my reflection in everyone I meet. I really believe that harming someone else harms me in some way...and that just doesn't make sense.

She wasn't thinking rationally that day, but it seems since then she has been able to think about it and cool down.

I think when nuclear type rage hits a person, they aren't really thinking straight anyway, so it's good she had people to talk her down, and provide rational arguments to help her see past it.

Originally Posted by Criseyde

I... know somebody a bit like this. And that kind of thinking essentially destroyed that person's life.

It sounds like your friend is defining "good" as "nice" -- and is defining "nice" as "limp noodle doormat" -- and thinks that good people capitulate and let others walk all over them. So in order to be strong, she has to be "evil."

This mode of thinking is, uh, strongly warned against in every tradition I can think of. We have sayings like "what goes around comes around," "anger is drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die," "as you sow, so shall you reap" etc. There's also the whole concept of karma...

Karma means "action"; your karma is your past action, no more and no less. Thought is a kind of action, and so someone can quite easily poison themselves with their own thoughts. Deciding to be evil certainly sounds like one of those. It is impossible for someone to exact revenge on someone else without creating any karma for themselves. It's not necessary, anyway. "Evil" people don't "win." Nobody has to *do* anything to them. They do it all to themselves.



rofl