I didn't shut up for the sake of the friendship - trembling

[Skelly]

Not quite sure where to post this but I guess since it involves integrity and believes, values, etc this is probably the right spot.

I've so far lived, 43 years, trying to please everybody around. So it's been a long, long journey of growth until I finally came to the point where I released it, internally.

Ever since I'm trying to find my voice. You know when talking to people, I used to for all my life avoid confrontations. And in the last 2 or so years where I tackled this heads on I went a bit in the other direction - causing too much confrontation

Anyway .. tonight something happened that is quite a-typical for me and I'm glad because that's how I would like to speak and talk - I think, or not?

I got into a heated discussion with a (real life) friend (more a very good acquaintance really) over on Twitter.

A mom was complaining about how her twins were misbehaving upon which he suggested a good old hiding. To which I replied that this is so wrong.

Well we got into an argument. Shouldn't do that with a conversative Christian who starts quoting the rod proverb

But I actually didn't really argue. I just stood my ground. Hitting another being, particularly a child, is just not on. There is no justification whatsoever for this.
He called me a "hypocritical bigotted woman" and still I smiled .. I replied to that "sounds like you need a hiding now"

Anyway, what this is really about is my speaking up. I carried the topic over to facebook (with my other friends) since I wanted to know what other Christian friends of mine would say to that argument.

You know how they always say be controversial it attracts the comments? Well that is true.

Btw another very religious friend totally agreed with me - just on the side. But it's not about right or wrong. Although perhaps it is?
At one point he asked:"How dare you tell me I'm wrong?" to which I replied: "I dare if you insist that hurting another being is right."

What "ideally" is the proper way to handle something like this? Should I have just left it?
Do we always have to right a wrong? Is that what I did?
Is it my ego that got the better of me once again or am I acting on behalf of any future children this dude might have?

I am btw always pushing his buttons. Quite unintentionally although sometimes admittedly I do it on purpose. He almost kinda asks for it. And then doesn't do anything with it. sigh. Blows up like a balloon in the meantime.

[NewSimon]

Good for you, I don't like parents hitting kids either - it's because they are angry at being inadequate and express it in another inadequate way.

Expressing your opinion is your right but you have to recognise when you can't persuade people otherwise and then just leave it - particularly if you find yourself becoming angry or incensed that someone else can't see it your way. That's why you feel trembly, because it's become a confrontation and you looked for reassurance from others that you were right. It isn't about being right though, is it? It's about knowing where you stand and for what reason.

[JSB]

Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal

[Skelly]

Thanks NewSimon. I'm not sure why I was trembling. I like to think it was more because for once I didn't shut up. I also didn't try to convince him as such. I just kept repeating it's wrong to hit a child (the part I didn't say but mean is your choice what you do but know it's not right).

@JSB .. only in this example I'm the one with child and he has yet to have his own.

I'm not a saint, my hand came out when I felt overwhelmed and couldn't control myself. I know from experience that this happens in times when I am not in control thus my strong conviction that it's the parents problem not the child's behaviour when they find no other way to deal with the situation.

Anyway - maybe that's the topic I have to trumpet out into the world and start a crusade. I live in a violent society where for the majority it's still quite ok to hit out at another, child or adult.

Most arguments in that case are always "there is no discipline without smacking" but that's just not true and a lack of education. There are many other ways, without having to resort to violence, to make sure the kids stay within the boundaries.
I've had enough of being accused a person that won't discipline just because I say it's wrong to use violence and abuse. People need to get that right. There are alternatives.

[rawxstasy]

Originally Posted by Skelly

Thanks NewSimon. I'm not sure why I was trembling. I like to think it was more because for once I didn't shut up. .

Good for you! I think it's great that you are creaing these situations to practice expressing your opinion and standing up for for yourself.

[AlmostGodess]

Sometimes we shut up because we simply have nothing to say But, yes, it is great to have opinions and, yes, it is great to express and share them around the globe. I would do this only when I care about the topic and I believe I can make a difference, as in you example with violence against children

[James81]

What is it about the subject of hitting other people (especially children) that makes you feel so overwhelmed with emotion?

[Skelly]

Originally Posted by James81

What is it about the subject of hitting other people (especially children) that makes you feel so overwhelmed with emotion?

The breaking of the cycle. Sticking to my own values and not giving in when emotions rise and I would feel so overwhelmed I would hit whoever happens to be there. It has happened. And I don't want it to ever happen again.
I want to live my life from love not fear.

[ssandra]

In a next discussion you could potentially not make it about right and wrong.. you could simply make it about agreeing and disagreeing.

I understand it is very tempting, especially about a subject that is very close to your heart, to make it about right or wrong. But as soon as you make someone else wrong, they are not open anymore for your arguments. They will be too involved in defending themselves to listen to any type of reason.

Making it about disagreeing, asking question on why they think a certain way, explaining on why you think about it differently, keeps an open discussion instead of an "attack - defend" type of situation.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Skelly

The breaking of the cycle. Sticking to my own values and not giving in when emotions rise and I would feel so overwhelmed I would hit whoever happens to be there. It has happened. And I don't want it to ever happen again.
I want to live my life from love not fear.

What's the cycle you are trying to break? This issue seems more *personal* to you than general.

[Skelly]

@ James
yes sure it is personal. Things like these don't come up for no reason and much less discussing in a public forum.
The cycle of using violent behaviour in whichever way. My mom used a wooden ruler on me once because she couldn't help herself anymore with this incredibly unruly pre-teenager that I was. I do not ever want to repeat this kind of episode in my life (no matter what "side" I'd be on).

@Sandra
yup I get that. I was fighting very hard not to make it into you or me are right or wrong - was trying to keep it at addressing the behaviour not the person.
Where do you draw the line? When do you stop telling people their behaviour is wrong? When is behaviour not wrong anymore? Or right?

I know ultimately there is no right or wrong, and I'm pretty good in many other areas of my life. I'm the one who's the calmest amongst all the emotional people around me and when they ask me how come, I always say, it's not right or wrong, it just is.

But yeah, I guess there are issues where I don't find this so easy. And so they keep coming to move me along ever more

Thanks all for your input, listening and all. I appreciate it. I'm one of those that haven't got the biggest social circle in the world. Helps to be able to "talk" somewhere about issues that matter at the very moment.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Skelly

@Sandra
yup I get that. I was fighting very hard not to make it into you or me are right or wrong - was trying to keep it at addressing the behaviour not the person.
Where do you draw the line? When do you stop telling people their behaviour is wrong? When is behaviour not wrong anymore? Or right?

It is not a matter of what you think. You can still think and have the opinion that whatever is wrong. Or right.

It is in the way you communicate. Instead of saying "I think it is wrong to hit children" you could say "I disagree with hitting children".

Might not seem like a big difference but for the sake of a discussion it is.

Lots of people hear "hitting children is wrong" and if they are the type that hits children they will translate that into "she is saying that I'm wrong!" and that is when stuff gets heated.

[Angela]

First of all, I was just watching a movie with a wonderful character in it named "Skelly." You and she are my only Skellys.

Secondly:

Originally Posted by Skelly

I am btw always pushing his buttons. Quite unintentionally although sometimes admittedly I do it on purpose.

Why do you do that?

[Skelly]

@sandra
Thank you. I can accept that once again it was about being right/wrong. This whole posting here seems to have been about trying to get out of that
No such luck of course.
I'm gonna chew on it a bit more, to make it softer and either swallow or spit it out eventually

@Angela
I bet you'd enjoy the story of where that nickname actually comes from. It's the short form of "Skeleton Woman" which is one of the tales in the book "Women who run with the wolves" and since at the time when the internet called for a nickname (feels so last century ) I identified myself very much with said Skeleton Woman and her story (not any more though, phew) and shortened it to Skelly. Here's the tale. Googled it quickly. It's a lovely read.

Anyway ... why do I push buttons?
That's me. I'm holding up mirrors and push buttons because of the way I live. Out of the norm, not fitting into the crowd. I'm living many peoples inner longing and so when they get in touch with me this part in them gets activated.
Why intentionally sometimes with that guy?
Because I would so much want for him to understand what is happening and why it's happening and move on. Learn and grow. And then of course he pushes my buttons because he will to extremely great lengths to keep the friendship intact (which I don't really see in the first place). He has the incredible need to be liked, we've discussed this many times but he still doesn't see that this is the issue in most of his dramas. (It used to be a big issue in my life too and probably still lingers around a little)

A third party came along and said that I'm quite irrational and I've hurt a friend in the process. See - the victim again, using others (he went out for drinks with that person yesterday) to get the world to see his poor self. Meanwhile I haven't really done anything other than declare what I feel is right with regards to disciplining a child (or wrong as it were). He's the one who called me names. So I'm not buying into the victim story at all.

But still ... how do you motivate a cause other than pointing out the wrongness of something? How do you make people aware other than being blunt and not accepting any excuses. Most people will always say, ah well, little smack on the bum won't do no harm and leave it at that.
It may or it may not but either I'm full throttle against it or not. Where do you draw the line?
You gotta be controversial how else do we wake up?

I guess I'm still finding my voice, figuring out how to say and do the things I want to say and do