What kind of char do you play in RPGs? (mage or fighter, good or evil...)

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

This made me laugh

I never really liked online role playing games. I onced played a free one called Nexus, I think. I some how inadvertently made a female looking warrior that was really a male. When I found out, I spent half my time trying to get a female to marry me. No one would.

Awwww...

[Mariana Trench]

Mage Blood Elf I don't play much though, and only on a friends account.

I like "Nature Hero" not-quite-human-but-gorgeous type characters.

Oh, and the Horde are *actually* the good guys.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Oh, and the Horde are *actually* the good guys.

WoW disappoints me. War3 Frozen Throne ended with a great "let's join hands and build the world together" moment. And then WoW goes, "we need factions! so they have to hate each other! So let's make up these semi-important NPCs and have them be subversive and hateful and stuff!"

And I just facepalm.

(...don't mind me I'm just an ivory tower academic shaking my finger at successful industry exemplars...)

[ZephyrusX]

Really? I prefer console RPGS (mostly from Japan). The stories are actually quite interesting to analyze. There are always these 'evil monsters' that are out to destroy the world (sometimes it is a 'evil empire). But no real explanation is really given as to why they are 'evil' or why they want to destroy the world. Actually, there was literally this one scene in Lufia where the bad guy stands up and says 'I am evil!' No further explanation is given. Hoho! Really?

It sort of reminds me of Nazi Propaganda and how propaganda will deliberately dehumanize the subject.

Who the hell says that you can't learn anything from games?

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

.

Oh, and the Horde are *actually* the good guys.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Really? I prefer console RPGS (mostly from Japan). The stories are actually quite interesting to analyze. There are always these 'evil monsters' that are out to destroy the world (sometimes it is a 'evil empire). But no real explanation is really given as to why they are 'evil' or why they want to destroy the world. Actually, there was literally this one scene in Lufia where the bad guy stands up and says 'I am evil!' No further explanation is given. Hoho! Really?

It sort of reminds me of Nazi Propaganda and how propaganda will deliberately dehumanize the subject.

Who the hell says that you can't learn anything from games?

I really don't play much of anything, but yeah, I get that a lot from movies too, and it's totally relevant.

What I was saying about the Horde was that they are portrayed in more traditionally bad ways. For the most part they have uglier characters, dark castles, and evil looking-and-sounding things. Whereas the Alliance is uber human pretty-face enlightened good. Though the actual story is, as I understand it, that the Alliance is invading, and trying to take over the Horde's land.

[ZephyrusX]

The Horde is from WoW, right? Yah, that is how 'the bad guys' are typically portrayed in a lot of games and movies. There seems to be a move towards stories portraying the 'Alliance' (just interchange other terms for the 'good guys') actually being the aggressors and you are meant to sympathize for the mislabeled 'bad guys'. There are a few games that center around the church. But I think this is equally problematic as it is still reinforcing the same old duality between 'good' and 'evil'. It is just reversing the order. I doubt that in real life that this is how things actually are (I wouldn't even use the terms 'good' and 'evil).

I'm not sure what sort of influence that this media portrayal has on the way we perceive our world though. Media coverage on world affairs are often portrayed in such black and white coloring. It often sounds dehumanizing.

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

I really don't play much of anything, but yeah, I get that a lot from movies too, and it's totally relevant.

What I was saying about the Horde was that they are portrayed in more traditionally bad ways. For the most part they have uglier characters, dark castles, and evil looking-and-sounding things. Whereas the Alliance is uber human pretty-face enlightened good. Though the actual story is, as I understand it, that the Alliance is invading, and trying to take over the Horde's land.

[Michael Chui]

*resists for a bit* Okay, screw it. History lesson time.

Warcraft started as a real-time strategy game. It was very straightforward. Humans versus Orcs. Humans good, orcs bad. Done and done.

The expansion to Warcraft 2 introduces the Demons. The evil behind the bad guys.

Warcraft 3 was about the orcs, having been beaten in the last game and harshly enslaved, rising to independence under a young chieftain. Except that their independence was not just from their human masters, but more importantly, from the demonic influence making them crazy bloodthirsty savages. They turned to shamanism as an alternate path to finding themselves.

The other storylines were about the human Arthas and his descent into insanity, which ravaged the human kingdom. The three races (playable, anyways) team up against this human and his now-revealed demonic master in a bid to save the world. The last campaign mission is an epic fight of no hope beyond a crazy plan (that, of course, works perfectly) where each faction risks everything to buy the plan a little bit more time for success.

It was, frankly, a stunning display of moral rectitude and capacity for forgiveness, camaraderie and civilization as an ideal.

Warcraft was quite literally responsible, in that one game, for rewriting the Orc stereotype from the Tolkien-based corruption of created beings (like elves and humans) into a Lakota-inspired civilization of respectable persons.

Reforming the Orcs didn't stop them from doing the good versus evil shtick all over again with Titans/Life/Creators versus Demons/Destroyers in that game, but yeah. And in World of Warcraft, they simply took all that good they had done and burned it to the ground by restricting the factions to two. Moral complexity gone, just like that.

Pisses me off.

Fun reading:
Orc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Terra Nova: The Horde is Evil (the comments are extremely important; the OP eventually caves)

[edit:]
And upon re-reading this, I feel like a racist idiot because the only proper name I tossed in here was a human's.

Warchief Thrall. There. Yes, he picked it himself.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

The last campaign mission is an epic fight of no hope beyond a crazy plan (that, of course, works perfectly) where each faction risks everything to buy the plan a little bit more time for success.

Isn't that the Lord of the Rings...??

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Isn't that the Lord of the Rings...??

Heh.

Lord of the Rings is different in that Aragorn and Gandalf unite the Forces of Good (TM) by sheer force of will (and some convenient plot devices, like Denethor doing his Johnny Storm impression). They're backed by prophecy, personality and reputation. And even then, most of the Forces of Good don't actually show up.

In Warcraft, Jaina, Thrall, Malfurion, and Tyrande agree to work together on the basis of discussion and mutual respect. They each looked at the others, who were each recently killing members of your people because they were perceived evil, and decided to work together as equals.

[Conflagrant]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Greetings,

I love Baldur's Gate, KOTOR II, and NWN2. These are PC games based on D&D, hence they allow you to play a character with an "alignment":

lawful, neutral, or chaotic

and

good, neutral, or evil

Before discovering Steve & Erin, I was always a neutral good mage. Now, though, I find myself playing more evil, chaotic, warrior-based chars. (This is my own form of personal development)

I've also admitted to myself that it's possible for intelligent people to play a non-magic user class. I used to think that only real-life barbarians played barbarians.

My question is, what kind of char do you play? Has it changed after finding Steve's blog?

Is your character similar to yourself? I always thought math/programming ~= magic, hence my choice to be a wizard. And I would be a terrible bard.

Healers by choice, but have played all classes at different times. Alignment is usually good or some variant of it. In WoW I played Alliance and Horde, but stuck with Horde. Horde are the real good guys.

Started on pencil and paper RPG's back in the day, playing a Centaur.

DPS - hit stuff hard.... *YAWN* (Was exciting at first but dps rotations and stuff are errmm...nuff said)

Tanks - More fun but how often can you get hit and claim to enjoy it?

Healers - Chance to do some good in a chaotic environment. Help others etc. Much closer to who I want to be in real life, although I don't play rpg games anymore so the point is kinda moot!

In WoW my favourite toon was a resto druid. Loved the shapeshift and instant flight form plus the instant cast heals on the BG.

To answer the OP's question about self development/change/character reflecting self.

Reading Steve's blog need not change your alignment - "real" world or imaginary. It is always your choice. For his part, I guess Steve would rather it did have an effect on you, but a positive one.

Change is the only constant in life. Stuff that doesn't appear to change is usually dead.

Do toons reflect the player? Absolutely.

Creating a character is in a small way like writing a book and you can only do that from personal imagination/experience/whatever. Most writers agree that all books they write are to some extent autobiographical - same with toons in roleplaying games.

Does playing an evil character make you an evil person? Nope.

What is probably does show is that there are issues present that need to be resolved. Good news is that if you are aware of it then they are already being resolved.


Best wishes to everyone here btw. This is/was my first post! LOL

Dave AKA Conflagrant

[Peterw]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Mage Blood Elf I don't play much though, and only on a friends account.

I like "Nature Hero" not-quite-human-but-gorgeous type characters.

Oh, and the Horde are *actually* the good guys.

I play a female BE mage at the moment. My last main was a rogue (BE male now switched to goblin) but I got so sick of getting beaten by mages in PVP (in WoTLK arena) that I rerolled a mage. Now they're evened up a bit. The mage is my only lvl 85 but I'm tentatively levelling the rogue up as well. I have an 80 DK (undead) and druid (feral cat/tauren).

All my chars are horde and I prefer DPS with cool stuff. I play almost PVP only as I just don't have the inclination to spend hours doing dungeons and raids. With 4 lvl 80+ chars it's safe to assume I've spnt a lot of hours in WoW hence being very casual now.

I used to play a paladin in EQ which made me decide that I prefer evil good looking DPS characters instead (with cool stuff )

[taylor]

I like sneaky characters: rogue, enchanter. Something that's weak in a fair fight, but uses tricks and stealth to win.

As for pvp, I found it much more fun to be a tricky bastard that you should be able to kill if only they weren't so slippery. My enchanter in EQ pulled some serious shady, basically traps to kill people since I'd loose badly in a fair fight. In FPS, the most fun I ever had was playing AVP where I was a sneaky alien with no hit points, but a good instinct for skulking in the shadows, stalking its prey. Muahaha. Next best is sniper, for the same reasons. The game "Thief" fit me like a glove. In strategy games I always like to focus on abstractions like money, diplomacy, propaganda, rather than brute force.

IRL I never want to fight straight up either. My instinct has always been to scheme and secretly hurt you rather than to obviously fight back. That actually kept me out of a lot of trouble as a kid because by the time I had worked out my scheme I realized it would be better just to let it go.

I remember always wanting to be the bad guy when I played with the kids down the street. As a kid even in movies I always rooted for the villain. I just thought they were cooler. Like that liquid metal guy from terminator 2, I wanted to be that guy so bad. That can't be a good sign.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by taylor

I remember always wanting to be the bad guy when I played with the kids down the street. As a kid even in movies I always rooted for the villain. I just thought they were cooler. Like that liquid metal guy from terminator 2, I wanted to be that guy so bad. That can't be a good sign.

Pfft, and you were shouting at me, "get away from me, Satan!"

Should have known you were secretly a sith.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

I like sneaky characters: rogue, enchanter. Something that's weak in a fair fight, but uses tricks and stealth to win.

Stealth games are so so so hard to do right. It's a shame because they're the most interesting type of game to play, in my opinion. Metal Gear Solid 4 did it alright, there's this one boss fight where you've got to track down a sniper. He's ruthless unless you've got a real good grasp of the game's stealth mechanics. That was my favorite boss fight, like, ever.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

Reading Steve's blog need not change your alignment - "real" world or imaginary. It is always your choice. For his part, I guess Steve would rather it did have an effect on you, but a positive one.

Change is the only constant in life. Stuff that doesn't appear to change is usually dead.

Do toons reflect the player? Absolutely.

Creating a character is in a small way like writing a book and you can only do that from personal imagination/experience/whatever. Most writers agree that all books they write are to some extent autobiographical - same with toons in roleplaying games.

Does playing an evil character make you an evil person? Nope.

What is probably does show is that there are issues present that need to be resolved. Good news is that if you are aware of it then they are already being resolved.

This reminded me of this recently-written post:
The Slacktiverse: DragonRaid: moral teaching through roleplaying games?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

Tanks - More fun but how often can you get hit and claim to enjoy it?

Simple-it feeds the frenzy. Getting hit doesn't hurt, or at least the pain doesn't register, when you've worked yourself into a rage and every sensation heightens it. I've been able to trigger something similar through real life exercise by pushing myself to the point where the fatigue and pain are nearly overwhelming. When you're not used to it it's sheer torture but stay in there long enough and something surges through you and you become unstoppable. You thrill at the aches because it's a sign of your victory; the battle becomes more important than the pain.

That's why I loved my warrior on WoW before I quit. I -loved- charging into groups of enemies and making it out of fights I had no business living through. For the unaware, warriors in that game have an ability called "Charge" and if you use it on an enemy while you're in the air it will cancel any momentum you'd built and you won't take any damage from the fall, so I always joked that the way they survive falling from extreme heights is to go faster than terminal velocity and thus intimidate the ground into not killing them.

Essentially it's about taking joy in pushing yourself to your absolute limits and then going beyond that. There's nothing like it.

[Conflagrant]

@Michael

It is an interesting post. I hadn't read it previously. Thank you for the link.

Personally, as a GM I always tried to model a "moral" universe, but often delayed the relationship between cause and effect for a long time. While doing this it was merely for "artistic" reasons, but looking back now it seems a good match to reality too.

Although I have played Paladins, they were always crusader types. Our group was well aware of the, shall we say, moral ambiguity of repent/convert or die, but it made the characters more real somehow. The flaws are what made them interesting. A black and white goody two shoes pally is kind of dull and also predictable to play.

The game that is described in that post sounds like a straitjacket rather than an RPG. Why not just handcuff the kids in a chair and play bible tapes at them...

Can't see it ever being truly popular, unless we are only looking at what parents want for their kids...

I would hope that most kids have a better moral compass than that and would not have to be shoe horned into a given morality. Surely the strength of any RPG is the ability to model an imaginary reality and let the players explore it without real world consequences?

In our group even our most bloodthirsty players eventually matured emotionally and actually looked for character, story and depth of play rather than min/maxing and powergaming ad nauseum.

[Conflagrant]

@Cado

Sorry, my meaning was probably smothered by my humour. My intent was to highlight the sado-masochistic ideas behind playing a toon that gets hit voluntarily, admittedly usually for the good of the party as a whole.

I played WoW for far too long and so I do get the game mechanics bit. RAWR bombs FTW!

Using threat/pain/adrenaline to stimulate myself into altered states is something I left behind at about 30 (I hope!). Admittedly it seemed good fun at the time though! lol There are easier ways and they are always present.

Now if the day ends and I have caused no pain to myself or others it has been a good day. If I helped someone then that is better again.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

Personally, as a GM I always tried to model a "moral" universe, but often delayed the relationship between cause and effect for a long time. While doing this it was merely for "artistic" reasons, but looking back now it seems a good match to reality too.

Although I have played Paladins, they were always crusader types. Our group was well aware of the, shall we say, moral ambiguity of repent/convert or die, but it made the characters more real somehow. The flaws are what made them interesting. A black and white goody two shoes pally is kind of dull and also predictable to play.

It's a fairly common maxim in RP circles that "flaws are interesting". (And I'm talking about RP, not MMOs.) They're interesting, however, because they're honest. Flaws are how reality seeps through the facade of fiction. It's where we learn morality: because there is no need for compassion or courage in an ideal utopia since nothing's wrong.

And because it's the honesty of reality creeping through the mirage, you can learn from these flaws. You can see that they're not so damning as to be worth condemning to hellfire, for instance, and also see that people are redeemable, that even the worst of intentions can be subverted for good ends, and ultimately, even if they don't change, you can accept a flawed person, warts and all.

As Shadow replied in American Gods when he was asked, "Just tell me you're one of the good guys," "I can't. I wish I could. But I'm doing my best."

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

I would hope that most kids have a better moral compass than that and would not have to be shoe horned into a given morality. Surely the strength of any RPG is the ability to model an imaginary reality and let the players explore it without real world consequences?

In our group even our most bloodthirsty players eventually matured emotionally and actually looked for character, story and depth of play rather than min/maxing and powergaming ad nauseum.

Well, if you read the comments, you'll note how people wonder at that particular demographic's ability to distinguish reality from fantasy to begin with. It's actually from this that I started wondering whether or not that ability is a developed ability, rather than one we're born with.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

Using threat/pain/adrenaline to stimulate myself into altered states is something I left behind at about 30 (I hope!). Admittedly it seemed good fun at the time though! lol There are easier ways and they are always present.

I'm the kind of person that strives to be unstoppable, and as pain and conflict-both physical and verbal-are unavoidable aspects of life I go in swinging so I'm well prepared when it happens. I also feel it puts me in a better position to prevent it or end it with minimal trouble as I'm more aware of the signals and I know my personal limits.

There is violence in me-there is in everyone. I figure it's better to accept it and master it than hide it away and hope it never overcomes me, or that I never have occasion to use it. I'd rather not, mind you, but if push comes to shove I'm not helping anybody by rendering myself incapable of handling that kind of situation.

Not to mention there are circumstances where being able to step into that headspace is really helpful when trying to accomplish certain goals. It makes me a lot more disciplined, for instance. And if I need to write for a warrior-like character it's far more convincing when the words flow from that state.

In short-everything has its place. That's not meant to convince anybody of anything, I just wanted to elaborate on my own perspectives and how it informs not just my character creation at times but also the choices I make in life.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Cado

Pfft, and you were shouting at me, "get away from me, Satan!"

Should have known you were secretly a sith.

Why whatever do you mean? I will lead you to the path of light my son.

First you must lose your attachments to your material wealth by donating to the cause, the church of taylor. Then you must learn to trust in a power higher than yourself by giving me your social security number and ATM PIN code.

My spirit guides are telling me that when you comply, your level of consciousness will jump at least 200 points by mid 2012. Then when your vibration is high enough, you can join the other chosen lambs as the mother starship takes us home.

Look into my eyes and receive your blessing of light my child.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by taylor

Why whatever do you mean? I will lead you to the path of light my son.

First you must lose your attachments to your material wealth by donating to the cause, the church of taylor. Then you must learn to trust in a power higher than yourself by giving me your social security number and ATM PIN code.

My spirit guides are telling me that when you comply, your level of consciousness will jump at least 200 points by mid 2012. Then when your vibration is high enough, you can join the other chosen lambs as the mother starship takes us home.

Look into my eyes and receive your blessing of light my child.

And don't forget the 72 virgins. You must never forget... the 72 virgins. Virgins...

S'cuse me, I gotta go take care of something...

[taylor]

Originally Posted by VinceG

And don't forget the 72 virgins. You must never forget... the 72 virgins. Virgins...

S'cuse me, I gotta go take care of something...

Sorry, the "lambs" of the chosen order must remain completely celibate and therefore we require a simple "operation of light". Afterwards you will have passed through the seventh gate of purity as foretold in my visions given me by the disembodied spirit of Emperor Norton.

Originally Posted by VinceG

Stealth games are so so so hard to do right. It's a shame because they're the most interesting type of game to play, in my opinion. Metal Gear Solid 4 did it alright, there's this one boss fight where you've got to track down a sniper. He's ruthless unless you've got a real good grasp of the game's stealth mechanics. That was my favorite boss fight, like, ever.

Sounds fun. Sadly I've never played MGS and I haven't played anything in a long time except for Portal 2, which was fun for the one or two days it lasted.

[Mounds]

I pretty much always play as an ass. If I can cause mayhem, I go that route.

Chaotic netural all the way, baby.

[Conflagrant]

Originally Posted by Cado

I'm the kind of person that strives to be unstoppable, and as pain and conflict-both physical and verbal-are unavoidable aspects of life I go in swinging so I'm well prepared when it happens. I also feel it puts me in a better position to prevent it or end it with minimal trouble as I'm more aware of the signals and I know my personal limits.

Not sure I would agree it is unavoidable, although at times it has seemed that way.

There is violence in me-there is in everyone. I figure it's better to accept it and master it than hide it away and hope it never overcomes me, or that I never have occasion to use it. I'd rather not, mind you, but if push comes to shove I'm not helping anybody by rendering myself incapable of handling that kind of situation.

This is perspective and preference. All things are present in all people all the time I guess. I too chose not to "hide it away" and lived a violent life for a long time. A few personal experiences forced me to ask: Who am I really fighting with? The answer to that question made me stop.

Not to mention there are circumstances where being able to step into that headspace is really helpful when trying to accomplish certain goals. It makes me a lot more disciplined, for instance. And if I need to write for a warrior-like character it's far more convincing when the words flow from that state.

Yes. There is no denying that the mindset is useful. Not 100% sure about this but perhaps it is ego in full flow. This is where the power comes from, i think. I found heightened senses in survival situations and similar unusual states addictive despite usually having a none addictive personality.

In short-everything has its place.

Totally agree.

That's not meant to convince anybody of anything, I just wanted to elaborate on my own perspectives and how it informs not just my character creation at times but also the choices I make in life.

I'm not sure it is possible to convince anyone of anything anyway. At least not until they are ready for it. The act of "convincing" is often an act of force/violence and most people do not allow force to be used against them, even on a verbal level.

Nice to chat with you and thank you for sharing your perspectives. We are all here to share and grow. Didn't expect a thread about RPG games to go so deep!

[Conflagrant]

@Michael

Sorry, which demographic? Parents, kids, Christians or blood thirsty players?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Conflagrant

@Michael

Sorry, which demographic? Parents, kids, Christians or blood thirsty players?

Fundamentalist Christians.

[AdalynRose]

WoW - Mage, Druid, Shaman & Death Knight. <3
I have a huge variety of classes hah, but in answer to your question, I've been stalking the forums and Steve's blogs for a year or so now, and no change...... I still enjoy them all the same