Oysters! A meat Vegans can safely eat?

[roxyruby]

For vegans concerned about not eating animals because of animals will to live and ability to feel emotions and pain, what about Oysters

They have no central nervous system and seem to be more similar to plants than animals.

And they are really good for your health.

So I may try Oyster!

I was also reading about Scallops but it sounded like they really really didn't want to die because they escape from predators.

[Cochonette]

Vegans don't eat meat. And I'm pretty sure this same exact thread was posted a while back.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Vegans don't eat meat. And I'm pretty sure this same exact thread was posted a while back.

True, but why not? Is it for health reasons, environmental reasons, out of a desire not to cause pain, or simply "because vegans don't eat meat"?

Worry less about adopting the label and the inflexible dogmatic assumptions that go with it, and focus on the goal of the behavior. If RR finds that she can achieve her goal of not causing suffering and still eat oysters, good for her. Too bad she'll be excommunicated from the Orthodox Vegan Club.

[Mounds]

What about fungi? They're more closely related to animals than plants...

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mounds

What about fungi? They're more closely related to animals than plants...

I don't think so. Fungi have cell walls.

[Mounds]

There's a bunch of things that distance fungi more from plants than animals. One example is no photosynthesis. Like animals, fungi can't produce their own food. They literally grow on it.

-Tim

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by JSB

True, but why not? Is it for health reasons, environmental reasons, out of a desire not to cause pain, or simply "because vegans don't eat meat"?

Some or all of the above, depending on the Vegan.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

Some or all of the above, depending on the Vegan.

Which was sort of my point: each person may have their own reasons for adopting a vegan diet, and depending on those reasons, they may be able to achieve their purpose without necessarily adhering to someone else's definition of what's proper.

Eating a vegan diet doesn't have to be about adopting an identity; it can be about accomplishing an objective (e.g. reduce suffering). If one's goal is to reduce suffering, then one could theoretically eat oysters and lab grown meat (sometime in the future) as neither of these foods require one to kill a living being with a central nervous system (i.e. capable of feeling pain, fear, & stress).

One can engage in a purposeful behavior without making it into a quasi-religious cult.

[mikej]

but if you choose to eat oysters you're no longer a vegan.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by mikej

but if you choose to eat oysters you're no longer a vegan.

So what? You can eat a "vegan diet + oysters" and feel secure in the knowledge that your eating habits are not causing pain and suffering to any animals.

All you lose is a title. If the title is more important than the objective of not causing pain and suffering, then don't eat oysters.

[mikej]

i agree but the op wanted to know if it's ok for vegans to eat oysters and the answer is no.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mounds

There's a bunch of things that distance fungi more from plants than animals. One example is no photosynthesis. Like animals, fungi can't produce their own food. They literally grow on it.

-Tim

There are prokaryotes who are heterotrophic, too. There are also plants that are heterotrophs. Carnivorous plants.

I guess I should tell my genetics professor that he's wrong, then. Generally speaking, the separation occurs along the lines of physiological systems, reproductive methods, and other ways the organism interacts with their environment.

Although the are heterotrophs, fungi lack a nervous system, or an ability to actively initiate movement to search for food.

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

So I may try Oyster!

I was also reading about Scallops

You must be rich.


....and you will become very horny...

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

There are prokaryotes who are heterotrophic, too. There are also plants that are heterotrophs. Carnivorous plants.

I guess I should tell my genetics professor that he's wrong, then. Generally speaking, the separation occurs along the lines of physiological systems, reproductive methods, and other ways the organism interacts with their environment.

Although the are heterotrophs, fungi lack a nervous system, or an ability to actively initiate movement to search for food.

Instead of spewing a bunch of facts, here's something worth reading:

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/fitch/re...ers/bianca.pdf

I'm well versed in these topics and enjoy a good discussion but I'm just too busy at the moment.

-Tim

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Mounds

http://www.nyu.edu/projects/fitch/re...ers/bianca.pdf

Thanks for linking this student's paper, the hypothesis is interesting...but it's not peer reviewed, and it's 13 years old.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Thanks for linking this student's paper, the hypothesis is interesting...but it's not peer reviewed, and it's 13 years old.

Doesn't mean it's outdated though! I've read insect papers from the 1950's. Plus it's full of citations. If you honestly don't believe it, look into it for yourself. It's not exactly a big secret. I've known that since I was a boy.
The only superficial similarity between plants and fungi is the fact that they're both stationary. However, fungi don't have leaves and no chlorophyll.
On a smaller level, plants have cellulose in their cell walls, shrooms have chitin. Chitin also exists in the animal world (insects exoskeleton, beak of octopi, claws of mammals, ect.).
Plants create have the ability to create their own energy, animals and fungi don't.

-Tim

[Zach M]

Good timing, Roxy. I had been thinking along similar lines recently, except I was considering jellyfish rather than oysters.

Oysters are mollusks, the group including snails, squids, cuttlefish, and octopuses. They have nerves and react to their environment too. In fact, some mollusks like squids are considered to be the most intelligent invertebrates. Even if oysters don't swim away from predators, that doesn't mean they don't have feelings. They rely on their shells for protection.

Of course, there's no way to know for sure whether different kinds of animals experience pain, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. Since you can get all the nutrition you need from plants and fungi, there's no need to consider adding invertebrates to your diet.

[Mounds]

Ya, you might as well bank on oyster's feeling pain. If that's your criteria, then err on the side of caution.
On the topic of octopi, they're unnervingly intelligent. Look that up sometime

By the by... what about insects?

[secrets0stolen]

I'm 110% supportive of a vegan diet (I'm on one), but it seems like you might be using to further your neurosis around food in the name of something else.

[st33med]

It seems that you desire meat. Just to let you know, it's fine to want to eat meat. Beating yourself up over it may not be the best solutions.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by st33med

It seems that you desire meat. Just to let you know, it's fine to want to eat meat. Beating yourself up over it may not be the best solutions.

I have always suspected that quite a few vegetarians and vegans secretly desire meat...but they ain't admitting to it

Oysters are alive, as every other crustacean and creature from the sea or land is...being a vegan means eating only vegetables, fruit and nuts and legumes, and maybe soy-based cheese.

If you want to eat oysters then eat them, just don't kid yourself that you are vegan while you are doing it!

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have always suspected that quite a few vegetarians and vegans secretly desire meat...but they ain't admitting to it

I've been transparent. The first month I turned vegan was rough. The next 6-9 months, I missed salami and would salivate every time I walked by it in the store. It's been 11 months now and I'm finally starting not to miss meat of any kind. Now the main difficulty is the social awkwardness.

How long have you been vegan, Roxy? Hang in there, kiddo. And remember, any comments you get here, whether from vegans, carnivores, or anywhere in between, they are mainly about people's justifying their own diet choices, less so about yours.

[ellie]

You probably wont like them anyway They're slimy and gross!

I could actually understand if one would go vegan after eating one :P

[votoshka]

I read a blog post about this same topic... where a guy who is a vegan or vegetarian or something decides he can eat oysters.

Well, it's up to you what you do really! If you don't believe in killing living animals for food though, you're kind of going against that belief

It depends on your REASON for veganism. For me, I don't want to kill an animal so I can eat, and obviously eating an oyster kills it, even if it doesn't feel pain.

But if you're only worried about minimising suffering, then I guess the oyster wouldn't suffer much, so you could eat them with impunity, But you WON'T be a vegan

As for a desire for meat...hmm...I stopped eating meat less than a year ago, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with wanting it anymore. I do remember early on getting a little nostalgic when I roasted some chicken portions for my kids, cause they smelled gooood... and I also miss eating burgers occasionally (yeah, like the junk food ones ) but for the most part, I don't crave meat at all. This actually surprises me!

[Hemlock]

I'm not sure I see the moral difference between eating plants that don't feel pain and oysters. Plants have some pretty complex systems to avoid damage, so I'm not sure, oysters having a shell for protection makes them less moral to eat.

I'd have some trouble arguing it's immoral to eat an animal with no central nervous system, mainly because it seems like all the same reasoning could keep you from eating plants.

But yes, it wouldn't be vegan, not that that means immoral.

[naossoan]

I agree with what some of the other people have said.

If you want to eat oysters, then eat them, but you won't fall into the category of a "vegan" if you do. Vegans do not eat any animal products what so ever.

It depends on your reasoning for wanting to be a vegan, as others have mentioned. If you are a vegan because you like the word, then it's not for the right reasons...purely superficial.

I do not call myself a vegan. I don't kid myself. I eat a very large amount of fruit. I probably eat as much fruit in a week as many people I know eat in several months. When I'm at home I pretty much eat 100% only raw fruits and veg. When I visit friends or family or go away then I will eat animal products. I don't care about the association of being a vegan. I only do it because I believe it to be the healthiest lifestyle. I feel poor after eating animal products but I just do it to make life easier for myself and my hosts.


My opinion is if you want to eat oysters, then eat them. If you want to call yourself a vegan, then don't eat them :P It's that simple

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Zach Matley

In fact, some mollusks like squids are considered to be the most intelligent invertebrates.

Just to be pedantic, I think you've confused octopi and squid here. Octopi are extremely intelligent. They can problem-solve getting food out of a jar with a screw-top lid, even when they have never seen one before, show signs of observational learning, and use tools. Also, an octopus predicted that Spain would win the Football World Cup.

Squid, on the other hand, are morons.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Squid, on the other hand, are morons.

Those stupid squid!

[Zach M]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Just to be pedantic, I think you've confused octopi and squid here. Octopi are extremely intelligent. They can problem-solve getting food out of a jar with a screw-top lid, even when they have never seen one before, show signs of observational learning, and use tools. Also, an octopus predicted that Spain would win the Football World Cup.

Squid, on the other hand, are morons.

Squids are smart too. And besides I only said "molusks like squids" because I didn't want to get too technical by saying cephalopods.

[roxyruby]

Ok I'm not gonna do it anymore. As zach said, I can get all the nutrients I need on a plant based diet.