Professional poker player, light or dark?

[Freelancer]

I read some of the light and dark workers articles and started wondering if prof. poker players are light or dark workers. I have a background of poker playing and I 'know' that if I need to I can make a very respectiable income with poker (100k a year should be doable) but I want to serve the greater good (damn this sounds really 'floaty' so to say) and I'd hate to be considered a dark worker.

From my perspective prof. poker is more of a gray area, in a sense your offering them some gamble and entertainment in exchange for money. However at the same time your still taking money from people who often don't consciously realize that they'r losing money to you (everybody and there mother overestimates there poker playing ability's) which would probably put you in the dark workers category.

So help me out with this one, professional poker player light or dark?



Ps. If I create a poker strategy blog where the idea behind it is basically teaching other people not to suck at poker this would fall in the 'light' department right?
Damn I still have a lot of problems integrating this into my system, I know for a fact though that I don't want to be a dark worker its doesn't feel natural to me. I still need to make a conscious decision between light or dark though, right now I am basically experimenting with changing my lifestyle to completely light which is somewhat tough if poker falls in the dark workers category...

[poetrythug]

Re-read Steve's post. He said less than 1% are purely "light" or "dark" -- 100% dedicated to a polarity. Most of us have shades of gray. I think your question is really more like, "Is this a good [morally] job to have?"

I would say, no. Gambling is the redistribution of wealth, not the creation of value. It's a zero-sum game -- you get money by taking it from others (legally, through the card game.) Compare that to a job where you are providing a service (writer, doctor, street musician). In this case, you are creating value for people by providing a service, and you are getting compensated for that.

I suppose I am skeptical about the notion of gambling with someone being a "service of value that is provided" on the basis of entertainment value.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by poetrythug

Re-read Steve's post. He said less than 1% are purely "light" or "dark" -- 100% dedicated to a polarity. Most of us have shades of gray. I think your question is really more like, "Is this a good [morally] job to have?"

I would say, no. Gambling is the redistribution of wealth, not the creation of value. It's a zero-sum game -- you get money by taking it from others (legally, through the card game.) Compare that to a job where you are providing a service (writer, doctor, street musician). In this case, you are creating value for people by providing a service, and you are getting compensated for that.

I suppose I am skeptical about the notion of gambling with someone being a "service of value that is provided" on the basis of entertainment value.

Yeah your right its more a question of morality than light/dark thats just the context I placed it in.

Anyway, if I would provide strategy advice to the general poker community would this be more morally acceptable? Considering I am still basically teaching people to take money from someone else. Also the advice will be available for everyone and completely free so I guess that makes it a bit more acceptable...

A lot of professionals use the reasoning that they'r providing entertainment value to make it more morally acceptable, a lot of them struggle with this especially at the higher limits where the money lost/won is quite outragious. Personally I always thought of this as a bit of a cop out because in reality most people don't play for entertaiment value but because they think they can beat the game (which is very very hard) and there's little entertainment value at any stakes excepth the very low ones (this is one of the few places where most people play for fun and not to make money).

[micth]

hey freelancer, its SpecT

Being a poker player myself, i can say that one of the toughest things to deal with is the morality issue. Personally, i dont like the 'entertainment' arguement. When people go home loser from the casino, alot of the time they dont feel entertained, they're chasing that rush they feel from winning, which can lead to addictions, etc. Being a poker player u dont create anything of value, and i actually think poker players could have a net negative affect on the world. I mean you could of broke up families, fueled addictions, hell mayb u could of even caused suicides. i know thats a pretty extreme thought, but think about it... if u make 200K in a year (which isnt too hard in the poker world), thats 200K thats uve taken off ppl. its not like uve traded anything of value for that 200K, uve just taken it. I basically see poker as just a sophisticated way of taking money from people and providing nothing in return.

although being an 18 year old its pretty hard to turn down $100/hour+ for really easy work, so this is how i generate majority of my income atm, but id hate for this to become my career. wow that felt really good to get it off my chest.

now, onto ur stratergy blog. while itll feel fulfilling to you, and you'll gain enjoyment from being part of the learning process, i still dont think itll have a net positive effect on the world. there can only be a certain amounts of winners in poker, creating a stratergy site wont help more ppl win, itll just increase the average skill level of players. although, the blog will attract people that are committed to learning and improving. btw, i think ur blog is a great idea, im not tryin to take anythin away from it. all im saying is that i dont think it falls into the light worker, or dark worker catorgies because its not really making the whole world a better place. actually now i think about it, maybe it does, coz u and the students will gain enjoyment from it... although economically it wont make a difference.

sorry, im just kinda all over the place atm, trying to get my thoughts out. I guess there's a way poker players could be light/dark workers (actually i dont even know if im using the term in the right context here... but basically wat im saying is how a poker player could have a net positive effect on the world). poker players dont create value, they just re-allocate resources. now if a poker player could more efficiently re-allocate resources, and only take a small enough commision (living expenses) that wouldnt negate the gain caused by re-allocation, then i guess they could have a net-positive affect. ie. win money of a sum1 who would of used that money for drugs (or other destructive things) and instead donate it to charity.

well, i really like this subject, but thats my thorts for now

done and done

[da1prophet]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Yeah your right its more a question of morality than light/dark thats just the context I placed it in.

Anyway, if I would provide strategy advice to the general poker community would this be more morally acceptable? Considering I am still basically teaching people to take money from someone else. Also the advice will be available for everyone and completely free so I guess that makes it a bit more acceptable...

A lot of professionals use the reasoning that they'r providing entertainment value to make it more morally acceptable, a lot of them struggle with this especially at the higher limits where the money lost/won is quite outragious. Personally I always thought of this as a bit of a cop out because in reality most people don't play for entertaiment value but because they think they can beat the game (which is very very hard) and there's little entertainment value at any stakes excepth the very low ones (this is one of the few places where most people play for fun and not to make money).

Interesting question....for the past decade or so I've made my living as a sports handicapper. The majority of my income I made from actually betting (and winning a high enough percentage) on my own. That alone separates me from the majority of the sports handicapping industry which I'll discuss in a moment. A smaller percentage came from selling my handicapping services to other people, writing articles, etc.

The majority of the sports handicapping information industry is a) crooked b) incompetent or c) both. If I'm feeling charitable, I'll say that crooks and incompetents comprise a sizable majority of the industry (at least 60%) and if I'm in a cranky mood I'll go so far as to say its over 90%. That makes my job tougher, since people are predisposed to assume that I'm either crooked or incompetent.

On one hand, I enjoy the process of handicapping--I'm good at it, I've put in a lot of time and work learning about it. For my clients, I like providing an alternative to the crooks in the industry and I like to teach people how to approach it the "right" way. I've made a nice living from it, and I've done whatever I can to give back by helping the less fortunate, donating to charities, volunteering, and so forth.

But the point that the previous poster made is well taken, which is why recently I've become dissatisfied with it and have decided to transition into some different things. Ultimately, I'm not creating anything of value. I guess maybe sharing my knowledge with others is something of value, but its not enough for me to be satisfied. On the other hand, 90%+ of my clients that have signed up for handicapping service renew the next year and I'd imagine that they'd all dispute strongly my assertion that I'm not providing something of value.

I will continue to pursue my sports handicapping activities for my own profit and for my clients, but my goal is to de-emphasize it somewhat in my life and diversify my income. I guess I want to make it more of a "passive income"...

So to the original question, I guess a lot of the "dark vs. light" question depends on the individual. IMO its not much different than if I had been generating my income over the past decade as a stock market trader--I may not be creating value per se, but I've chosen to do good things with the money I generate. Also, I've chosen to use the freedom that my vocation provides--in terms of time, location, mobility, scheduling--to enrich my life and the lives of others.

Obviously the gambling question is one of specific applicability to me, but it seems that you can make a similar distinction about many other methods of generating income.

Ironically, I've written hundreds of pages on the concept of "value". For us sports handicappers, it refers to the difference between the line posted on a game and what the "true odds" of the proposition should be. As an example, in the first round NCAA game between Winthrop and Notre Dame, the Irish were favored by 4 points or thereabouts. However since most of that was based on the public perception--Notre Dame is the most famous college in the country and no one has heard of Winthrop--I determined that the "real" line should have made Winthrop a small favorite. Us gambling types call this an "overlay", and it makes it a good wagering value.

The fundamental point I've made in my writing is that in the sports handicapping context "value" is a transitory concept--and maybe that's applicable to "value" as a philosophical concept. Ultimately--like so many other things in our reality--maybe our "perception" that we're providing value is the important thing?

[Freelancer]

Hey spect nice to see you here.

Its interesting that I don't view most poker players as crooks however incompetent probably encompasses like 95% of the poker community. Poker has a way of tricking a lot of people into thinking they'r the next poker god and its the only reason why its still very very profitable. Right now it feels like steeling candy from a small child for me, which obviously feels wrong. Often the more professional students of the game are smart and intelligent people and most of them are morally very strong, this may sound awkward but the regular prof. poker player is NOT a bad person. I do think now that they don't realize what damage they are doing to the society, sure if they quit than more will replace them eventually however they still share a responsibility...

The idea of creating a blog to educate the masses about poker and allow them a chance to protect there candy makes me feel better. When I play poker now I always have this seed of doubt in the back of my mind, it just doesn't feel right. Now I never had this problem before, I just figured that they where risking there money voluntarily so it was ok for me to take it. A common feeling a lot of prof. poker players share is (and I used to as well);
'its immoral to let a sucker keep his money'
Or thats the idea I'm getting lately, offcourse its completely offbase because these suckers often don't realize that they'r effectively bleeding money away slowly to the rake/better players.

I think that educating the masses on how to beat the rake/game is closer to the light side of things than playing poker and taking the money directly. I also enjoy explaining poker strategy a lot, and I never mind to talk about it with other poker players if they'r atleast fairly knowledgable. It feels great to pass on knowledge that you spend so much time and energy on to learn yourself. Don't understimate the time and energy it takes to become good at poker, I wouldn't be suprised if I spend more time studying poker than anything else in the past 4-5 months. It would be a shame if that time and energy spend goes to total waste, now I also developed some personal character traits that will help me in my future life but a lot of the knowledge is not applicable to 'normal' life.

To summarize, I am going to create this blog and feel good about it. I will make it the best single best free online strategy available on the net (besides maybe twoplustwo) and I'm not going to selfsabotize this attempt. I feel better about this now, and I won't be playing poker seriously for monetary gains anymore (playing it with friends for fun and entertainment is a different story).



Edit; Both of you thanks for responding here, I appreciate it. This has been bugging my mind for a while now...

[Erock]

Yeah I am terrible at poker, and I am telling you right now I would not feel entertained if you guys were taking 1000s off me!

Fortunately we only play $5 dollar games with me and my buds, so it's not much of a financial downturn to lose $1 a week.

And when it is me and some good friends, it is about the entertainment and spending time together. Most of the time we just get to talking and don't even get through that many hands.

I wouldn't make playing poker a career. Not because it's "immoral" or whatever, but just because it doesn't seem like something you would look back on and feel real good about, like you gave a lot to the world. I see it the same as investing in stocks. You're not really creating any value, you're just along for the ride.

Erock

[da1prophet]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Hey spect nice to see you here.

Its interesting that I don't view most poker players as crooks however incompetent probably encompasses like 95% of the poker community. Poker has a way of tricking a lot of people into thinking they'r the next poker god and its the only reason why its still very very profitable. Right now it feels like steeling candy from a small child for me, which obviously feels wrong. Often the more professional students of the game are smart and intelligent people and most of them are morally very strong, this may sound awkward but the regular prof. poker player is NOT a bad person. I do think now that they don't realize what damage they are doing to the society, sure if they quit than more will replace them eventually however they still share a responsibility...

The idea of creating a blog to educate the masses about poker and allow them a chance to protect there candy makes me feel better. When I play poker now I always have this seed of doubt in the back of my mind, it just doesn't feel right. Now I never had this problem before, I just figured that they where risking there money voluntarily so it was ok for me to take it. A common feeling a lot of prof. poker players share is (and I used to as well);
'its immoral to let a sucker keep his money'
Or thats the idea I'm getting lately, offcourse its completely offbase because these suckers often don't realize that they'r effectively bleeding money away slowly to the rake/better players.

I think that educating the masses on how to beat the rake/game is closer to the light side of things than playing poker and taking the money directly. I also enjoy explaining poker strategy a lot, and I never mind to talk about it with other poker players if they'r atleast fairly knowledgable. It feels great to pass on knowledge that you spend so much time and energy on to learn yourself. Don't understimate the time and energy it takes to become good at poker, I wouldn't be suprised if I spend more time studying poker than anything else in the past 4-5 months. It would be a shame if that time and energy spend goes to total waste, now I also developed some personal character traits that will help me in my future life but a lot of the knowledge is not applicable to 'normal' life.

To summarize, I am going to create this blog and feel good about it. I will make it the best single best free online strategy available on the net (besides maybe twoplustwo) and I'm not going to selfsabotize this attempt. I feel better about this now, and I won't be playing poker seriously for monetary gains anymore (playing it with friends for fun and entertainment is a different story).



Edit; Both of you thanks for responding here, I appreciate it. This has been bugging my mind for a while now...

Drop me a line when you get your blog up--I'll be happy to link to it and help promote it ; )

[micth]

Originally Posted by Erock

You're not really creating any value, you're just along for the ride.

Erock

by purchasing stocks though, your providing financial capital for people to create value with.

[Freelancer]

Originally Posted by Erock

Yeah I am terrible at poker, and I am telling you right now I would not feel entertained if you guys were taking 1000s off me!

Fortunately we only play $5 dollar games with me and my buds, so it's not much of a financial downturn to lose $1 a week.

And when it is me and some good friends, it is about the entertainment and spending time together. Most of the time we just get to talking and don't even get through that many hands.

I wouldn't make playing poker a career. Not because it's "immoral" or whatever, but just because it doesn't seem like something you would look back on and feel real good about, like you gave a lot to the world. I see it the same as investing in stocks. You're not really creating any value, you're just along for the ride.

Erock

Haha well, every time I warn people that in the end they will lose money to me they never believe me, infact it usually results in them challenging me to a HU match.
But your right poker doesn't give any real value, I hope my blog does provide some value for people and hopefully some entertainment...

If you ever get curious what goes on in the minds of decent poker players, just read my blog and I might give you an idea.

Drop me a line when you get your blog up--I'll be happy to link to it and help promote it ; )

Awesome, thanks a lot in advance. I really appreciate it, this is my first attempt at blogging and I'm a bit suprised of the kind reactions I get from people. A lot of people I talk to want to help me out or are interested in what I've got to tell.

[Brutha]

Anyway, if I would provide strategy advice to the general poker community would this be more morally acceptable? Considering I am still basically teaching people to take money from someone else. Also the advice will be available for everyone and completely free so I guess that makes it a bit more acceptable...

In general, look at Steves question of: "What is your purpose?"
Making money is no good one.

Then I am highly untypical but maybe I can give you an other perspective on poker.

Let me start with a nice aphorismus:
"The military strategy from Japan, Russia, and the US could be compared to Go, Chess and Poker."
It might be a bit of an exaguration but it has a bit of truth.
You can't understand strategic decisions that are made in the US today without understanding poker dynamics.

It would be a shame if that time and energy spend goes to total waste, now I also developed some personal character traits that will help me in my future life but a lot of the knowledge is not applicable to 'normal' life.

A lot of "knowledge" I learn't at school isn't applicable to my life either. Factual knowledge isn't the point of education. We have google these days if we are searching facts.
It's bringing different mental perspectives to new problems and thinking differently about the new problems than the average uneducated fellow.
Nobody reads Shakespeare because there is somehow facutal knowledge expressed in it that is valuable. People read literature to get a new perspective on life (yes, there are also people that read literture for fun but that is besides the point).

If you can convey those things you have learnt that are applicable to other areas of life that you have learned by playing poker I will probably read your blog and get real value out of it.

[Addict]

I would say playing poker: dark.
You benefit only yourself as far as I can see. You're not creating any value for anyone, only possibly taking it away from others that are willing to give it away.

Teaching people how to play or get better: light.
You're helping people. Even it just makes them happier, that's good. Then again, you're not really helping them become lightworkers either. I guess people like speaking about personal development so much because it provides value and then ideally helps others produce more value.

[The Adventurer]

Hello

As someone who works with one of the big poker companies, I can say that I do consider online gambling a form of entertainment that on average costs the users a small fee to use - in a way similar to how movies cost to be produced and offered in your local cinema. Sadly this way of seeing the business is not widespread, and many in the company are thinking in terms of getting people's money off them...

Poker for me is a fascinating game because it is so multidimensional - there is math and game theory in it, but there is a great psychological factor too. It requires memory, focus, perception... and I have learned many life lessons from it! To name one - you can work very hard and do everything perfectly and still lose - once you feel that this is ok, your spirit becomes really difficult to break! In complexity I feel that poker surpasses chess, and the only game that I find can be comparable is Go, although I don't know Go well enough to make such a statement. But the way that the trapper can turn out to be the trapped in poker and in Go is amazing.

Light or dark - first, while I find merit in Steve's idea, I'd not use the words light or dark, nor make the analogy to star wars... In playing winning poker you take people's money.. however you can not take anything that they do not give you from their own will. You certainly offer value - in terms of being a stong competitor people can play against - there are businessmen who like to play really high stakes against the very best - not at all to make money but for the challenge - and they don't mind to lose.

There are many weak people who become addicted or gamble in an unreasonable way, but while I personally woundn't like to take their money, it was their choice to sit at the table, and I very much respect choice even self-destructive one, for it is only when one realizes that it is his choice to take a certain action, can he also choose do take another action instead.

So if you feel good about being a "shark", about being able to outsmart the others, continue to play. If not then orient yourself towards something else, if you can win at poker, then I believe that you can be successful in many other things if you open your mind and perception to them.

By all means start your poker school. You are able to do an excellent job, and it can become a high quality resource. It will both make you feel good to share your knowledge and it will provide you with an additional income that will buy you some time, which is always good.

[Brutha]

As someone who works with one of the big poker companies, I can say that I do consider online gambling a form of entertainment that on average costs the users a small fee to use - in a way similar to how movies cost to be produced and offered in your local cinema. Sadly this way of seeing the business is not widespread, and many in the company are thinking in terms of getting people's money off them...

Then you can make the argument that a lot of cinemas are also focused on making money off their customers.

In complexity I feel that poker surpasses chess, and the only game that I find can be comparable is Go, although I don't know Go well enough to make such a statement. But the way that the trapper can turn out to be the trapped in poker and in Go is amazing.

I don't really think that complexity is so important. There is enough in chess to learn to fill a lifetime.
In addition go is more about harmony than about trapping your opponent.

[Pokerman13]

A few points...

-Don't quit your day job.

-It's not easy money no matter what anyone tells you.

-If you don't have strong control over your emotions give up now.

-Its very hard to beat the low limits the rake will kill you. (25 buyin and lower NL)
Its a good place to start and get comfortable with the game just don't expect to make much money if any.

A few more points if you are still thinking about playing seriously...

-Get rakeback.

-Get pokertracker.

-Get stats on your opponents and use a overlay like poker ace hud.

-Treat poker like a business.

-Have a designated bankroll and don't use it like its your bank account.(ie Go on a up streak so you go spend all your winnings cause you think you can just win the money again tomorrow night.)

-Move down limits when you are hitting a bad streak of cards, so many people bust because of this.

-If you are prone to tilt and can't see your self getting past losing big money to fish give up now.

-Get two monitors more screen space helps a lot for multi tabling.

-Fold 72o

OK i figure i would throw that out there for anyone getting interested in this career from this thread. The 72o one is a joke... I am not going to get into any poker strategy because i will be typing all night heh.

I have been living off poker for over 3 years now and i know the learning never stops. The strategy part of the game isn't that hard to get down... play tight... be aggressive... blah blah blah. Its the other angles that will make you profitable... Example... Stats on your opponents before you ever play against them, Bankroll management, NEVER TILT, Get a poker buddy, Play with rakeback...

Do i feel bad i make money of other peoples misfortune? No not really... A lot of the time it's my misfortune ie. money going to the bad players... Its just in the long run the money slides my way more often then the other. Everyone sits down at the same game with the same odds. (yes i use stats and some people would argue thats a unfair advantage but its available for everyone to use if they choose to spend the time and set it up.)

One last thing to anybody thinking about playing poker seriously. You have to learn the difference between SHORT TERM and LONG TERM poker swings.

Short term poker = luck
Long term poker = Skill

I am sure there are some heated debates on what is enough hands to be considered long term... Lets just say anything that happens in a week or two of poker is luck. The only way to know for sure is get poker tracker and put in 20-50 thousand hands in and see where you stand. A lot of people change there strategy every second day depending on which way there swinging and that is just gambling.

A few things to end my post... YES i am a recovering gambling addict... I have not been to the casino in years and never buy scratch and wins or play the lottery. I know how it can be very addictive and very destructive. ( I don't see poker as gambling its a game... it does not give me the same feelings as when i gamble, it's boring and feels like a day job.) Anything in life can be addictive and destructive if overdone its all about moderation. Food drugs sex ect...

Light or dark? I have no idea, that is all new to me since i started reading these forums but that is my 2 cents on professional poker.

Peace and love

[ArtVandelay]

Well you justification for being a professional poker player seems to be "I am providing them entertainment in exchange for their money." While people certainly do enjoy playing poker, do you really think that they enjoy being taken by a professional player? I think people enjoy playing cards when the game is not completely rigged against them. Of course, you can argue that the luck factor of poker throws a wrench into that calculation, but if you are sure that you can defeat them, you can also be sure that they'll get frustrated and end up not enjoying themselves most of the time.

The real question here is "am I morally okay with taking money for people without providing them with any meaningful service?" It's easy to make analogies to other people who don't leave people with anything of lasting value (basically any kind of performer: magicians, singers, actors, etc.). But these are false analogies. Performers, if they're good, provide a good time and a good memory. People enjoy watching Penn and Teller make things vanish, but they don't enjoy losing thousands of dollars. More importantly, while they'll remember being completely enthralled by the magic, no matter how enjoyable you made the game of power, they'll remember the thousands they lost in it. There's an important psychological difference between paying and losing; people would rather pay $15 to see a show than be admitted for free and have $15 stolen from their pockets. Moreover, you have to ask myself "would people really pay thousands of dollars for my company"? I suspect that, if you're honest, you'll reach to conclusion that they will not.

So let's get back to the question we decided was important. Do you have a moral problem with taking money from people without providing any meaningful service? That's a question you'll have to answer for yourself, but some things to consider are the lives that you ruin, the relationships you ruin, and the necessity of making your own money and having a job you love. The flip side is that there will be plenty of people who can "afford to lose" the money that they gamble with. You'll meet all sorts of interesting people, and probably play against some some other exceptionally good poker players. Do the benefits outweigh the moral costs?

[Nelson]

If you are living in the world of lightworker/darkworker bologna then yes, teaching poker is dark and playing poker is dark.

Why? Because the intention of your actions in both scenarios is: make money and/or earn respect.

Ask yourself this question: If you never earned any money off of the blog or the game would you continue to do it?

If you answered no, then you're in it for your own selfish purposes and therefore you are a darkworker.

Don't feel too bad - In my mind we are ALL "darkworkers" - some of us are just better at it than others.

[Pokerman13]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

but some things to consider are the lives that you ruin, the relationships you ruin

All you can do is bet call or fold the person on the other side has the same options. It is ridiculous to take responsibility for someone else destroying their lives just cause you were sitting at the same poker game as them.

I'm not trying to argue that poker is light work or dark work but i don't think taking responsibility for other peoples actions is a good thing especially when its just screen names and speculative situations.