Influencing someone into something good for them.

[Eric L]

I have this lady friend.

She is a mind blowing artist and does not acknowledged it. Nor allows herself to see it. She was given a statement by her father that it wasn't worth pursuing.

To see such talent being discouraged pisses me off, deeply.

I am thinking that, I should ask her to draw something for me, and, possibly forward said drawing to someone in the drawing industry. Her drawings, according to my eyes, are flawless. She seems to be able to draw anything...so beautifully as well, yet she tells me she learned this skill on her own - therefore, this indicates she is passionate about it.

This young woman is a damned good friend of mine and I can't help myself, I must encourage her into this.

She has trouble getting a job, and this skill, is on stand by - for what reason?

GAH!?

Advice/Ideas?

[The Cloud]

Don't do anything out of frustration, you'll only make art even more of a torture for her than it likely already is. You can't force a person to do something they love. If you genuinely appreciate her talent then show her that, but don't fight like her father. If you fight fire with fire, she's the one who'll get burned.

[rei]

i would not approach it this way. that sounds rather manipulative and under-handed. if i were in your friend's position, i would probably be quite upset to learn you went behind my back, whether you thought it would be good for me or not.

you can tell her you admire her skill so much that you want to tell a friend in the art industry, and you know she might not appreciate it if you did that, but you wanted her to know you're that impressed with her talent. see how she responds.

this approach sounds a little like that whole patronizing-rescuer dynamic. your friend is probably in a better position to know what's best for her, based on all her resources (some you have seen, some you haven't) and you could be a friend by respecting that a bit more.

hard lesson to learn, i know. i used to think i had the right to act on my loved ones' best interests too. eventually i saw how presumptuous it was for me to do that and i only act that way now if there is an immanent threat to physical safety. otherwise, i express what i see going on and trust them to make their own choices. sometimes it's hard but it is a more respectful place to be.

[Eric L]

I may be assuming wrongly, but, are you coming to the conclusion that I would be doing this without her knowledge and forcefully?

[rei]

it sounded like she would only find out about forwarding her work to that person afterward, or only if the work was received positively.

(not forceful, and yes technically with her knowledge but only after the fact... was the impression i got.)

so yes, i may have grossly misunderstood you, because i did get the impression you only planned to tell her after you did that. otherwise it wouldn't really be about influencing her into something 'good for her' right?

perhaps i did misunderstand.

[Eric L]

Just going to make you realize a few things about me; I am direct and, NO, I am not trying to insult you, here I go:

How can text sound like anything?

Influence and manipulation, you definitions are misplaced, IMO.

Influence, from a good source, is a good thing, IMO.

Influence, from a bad source, is manipulation, IMO. Obviously, to both of us, this one is bad.

I like to beleive that I am a good source, no, actually, I know I am a good source.

You still have some perceptions holding you back, you assume people to be bad sources, in general.

rei, beleive me, if you so can allow yourself to, I do not imply or say anything else other than what I type on this board.

It happened before, for me, to come off as rude and possibly idiotic, but, in reality I was being honest and forthcoming...hope this works for you. Being so direct and having this no-nonsense approach works well IRL, but, on forums, people can see other things, because IRL, you can put tone of voice and emotion into what you say and people easily bring this concept onto the internet, where it can't possibly happen (Seriously.). So, basically, when you try to observe emotion and intent in text from someone on the internet, what you find, is your own or possibly the one of others around you, IRL.

Writing in text as the advantage, to me at least, to come out really well and defined, but, it lacks emotion and intent. Being so direct, on forums, made many people beleive that I am a total tool, because of their own inability to realize they possibly observe my intent or emotions in what I type, because, that just can't happen.

I found this way of thinking and interacting with others to be damned awesome, IRL anyways.

So, this is why I need to learn to explain my intent and approach more often.



Had I did this before, you could have avoided yourself the negative thought patterns you developed towards my intentions...hehe.

I'll try my best not to let that happen again, promise...

[rei]

Eric,

i don't assume people are bad, or assume they have bad intentions. i am usually good at figuring out what people are saying and reading the subtext, even online, but i am not perfect at this either. i did not read your post as rude or negative and i did not think that you were in any way bad for having this desire to help your friend.

having said that, it sounds like your last post is justification for your desire to influence your friend. you did not say whether my impression was accurate, that your goal was to do this and tell her afterward. even if there are positive intentions there, i still personally think that is a bit manipulative. even if the idea is to help someone get out of their own way because we think we know best.

if your goal was not to do this and tell her later, feel free to clarify. i also think we can have positive intentions and be manipulative about them. doesn't mean a person who does that is "bad" or "wrong" but i do think it can be more effective and respectful to be upfront about things.

[Cado]

My question is what does she want? If she wants it then forwarding her work to someone in the biz, with or without her knowledge, is not a manipulative act, it's a nudge through the door. If she doesn't then you're inviting all sorts of pressures into her life that she didn't ask for. Keep in mind that many people are passionate about what they do precisely because it's not a business. If she was drawing professionally would her love of the craft persist?

Were I in your position, my approach would be to motivate her to act in alignment with her desires. For her to create an opportunity and have it stick she'd have to clear out the blocks which are keeping her where she is otherwise going pro would make her miserable.

[rei]

yeah, agree with Cado - if she has said this is what she wants, it doesn't matter if she knows her work is forwarded to someone in the industry. or, that would still probably be manipulative but she wouldn't be nearly as inclined to be bothered by it, and would be likely to view the act with appreciation.

[Eric L]

I must admit, the open mindedness you present me with is refreshing.

I have been frequenting other forums for too long and, I think, I've allowed them to condition me to defend myself and take stuff personally too damn much.

I looked at under-handed and behind my back and took it personally, honestly.

But, I stand my ground, do not read subtext within my posts, there is none, makes things simpler.

My sig shall be: There is no subtext!



Yes, my goal is to do this with her full knowledge and permission. She keeps showing me her drawings which indicates she wants to show this talent to others, and, also, that she believes that her fathers beliefs is justification for not going through with it.

I have been into studying limiting beliefs a good deal in the past months and have applied this to myself, the level of fulfillment it has brought me is to great for me to not want to share with her. And, yes, I am silly over her.

[Angela]

Eric, just fyi, I also got the impression you meant to ask her for a drawing and then forward that drawing to someone without her knowledge, necessarily, just from the way it was worded.

In the interest of the principle of power, I think she would benefit more from your encouraging her to take on promoting her own self, and submitting her own work to your contacts. That is, unless you have a close personal relationship with someone in the artistic community who is in a position to partner with her, in which case an introduction might be just the ticket.

[blossom]

I agree with what Cado and rei said here. If someone submitted my work without my permission, no matter how much good intentions they had, if I wasn't ready for that leap and I was forced into it, I'd be pissed...and it could cause friction within the friendship.

[Eric L]

Thank you all for pointing this out to me.

I will explain myself a little more in my next posts.

In the interest of the principle of power, I think she would benefit more from your encouraging her to take on promoting her own self, and submitting her own work to your contacts. That is, unless you have a close personal relationship with someone in the artistic community who is in a position to partner with her, in which case an introduction might be just the ticket.

As soon as you said principle of power, my photographic memory made Steve's book flash before my eyes and I understood immediately. To take someones power away within their ability to reach for their own goals is folly. She needs to do this on her own, perhaps I should let her ask me for help instead? The initiation part of this little thing should be hers, in this case, yes? But she keeps showing me these damned good drawings........I guess all she needs is what I am already doing, praising her praise deserving drawings.

I have no connections but my abilities to connect with anyone anytime are pretty much up there. This wouldn't be a problem. The last line of my OP was the general question I was asking and was related to what advice/ideas one would have regarding approaching this (not with her) but with others and this art in general.

I think I will let her handle this on her own...but, I'll take advice and ideas anyways!!

[Angela]

I don't see anything wrong with your offering your help! That sounds like a nice thing to do, to me.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by rei

yeah, agree with Cado - if she has said this is what she wants, it doesn't matter if she knows her work is forwarded to someone in the industry. or, that would still probably be manipulative but she wouldn't be nearly as inclined to be bothered by it, and would be likely to view the act with appreciation.

I'm curious, in what way would it be manipulative? I'm not taking offense at the comment, I'm just curious. I know that as a writer if I were to send something to a friend which s/he then forwarded to an agent and that got me a publishing deal I'd be extremely grateful. I put the desire out there for that end and my friend acted on his own to help facilitate my success. Personal autonomy and collaboration come together beautifully in that scenario.

Now, it would be manipulative if that friend tried to use it as leverage over me. "I got you that contract so don't you dare complain that I slept with your wife." Outside of that, though, I'm not seeing how it could be construed as manipulative.

So we have a common basis for discussion, I define manipulation as the conscious disregard of another person's will for the sake of personal attainment. (Attainment could be nothing more than an ego high. Whatever gets your rocks off can fall under this definition.)

[rei]

Cado, based on your definition it wouldn't be manipulative. to me, technically manipulation is about tinkering whether it's forceful/ill-willed to the other or not. it's got a neutral connotation, rather than a negative one. or, it was meant with a neutral connotation as i used it there.

i think it's possible for someone to be manipulative with a positive purpose, but we don't tend to respond to the manipulative side of it if we're pleased with the outcome.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by rei

Cado, based on your definition it wouldn't be manipulative. to me, technically manipulation is about tinkering whether it's forceful/ill-willed to the other or not. it's got a neutral connotation, rather than a negative one. or, it was meant with a neutral connotation as i used it there.

i think it's possible for someone to be manipulative with a positive purpose, but we don't tend to respond to the manipulative side of it if we're pleased with the outcome.

Ahhh, I see, so it's basically just an issue of semantics. Thanks for clearing that up.

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by Eric L

Advice/Ideas?

What sort of artist is she? is she an illustrator?

by her not pursuing her passion, is she not practicing it? or is she not showing people it?

Perhaps you could recommend her to deviantart?

[Eric L]

Shes draws with pens.

I am going out with her today, I will be talking to her about this.

What is deviantart?

by her not pursuing her passion, is she not practicing it? or is she not showing people it?

All of this, IMO. I will confirm this with her, today.

[rei]

DeviantArt is a web-based community where lots of artists display their work. you could probably learn more by going here deviantART: where ART meets application! i've not noticed any prices there but that doesn't mean it isn't set up to be compensated for your work.

[Eric L]

If I get her to post a pic somewhere, I will all give you links to show you what I mean in regard to her talent.

I keep being baffled, I keep asking her if she traced these drawings from another drawing and I keep getting her pissed because of it, sometimes, lol!

Her drawings really blow my mind...she tells me she never trained under anyone and she has all this damn talent...waiting to be unleashed.

Can't wait to talk about it to her...hope things work out.

[rei]

i hope it goes well. Eric!

[Brutha]

Not everyone's idea of life is about expressing talents.

I rather focus on making a positive difference. My history teacher thought that I would have made a fine career in history or a related subject but that's not interesting to me because it's just theory for theory's sake.

I have no problem with people who do art for art's sake but you shouldn't pressure people into it when they have a different utility function.

[brendannz]

[QUOTE=Eric L;548428]

What is deviantart?

Deviantart is the biggest online art community; deviantART: where ART meets application! it's an easy way to showcase your artwork to people and get feedback, although there's a lot of whiny teenagers on it, but lots of really good stuff on there too.

As well, you can get lots of pleasure out of drawing, without actually sharing it with the world and just doing it for yourself. It's kind of like going for a run, even if you're not an olympic sprinter, it's still a healthy thing to do. Just a thought

[blossom]

I agree with this. Unless your friend has expressed a desire to become more commercial and get her work out there, it may not be what she really wants, and to push her into it...well, it might be better to listen to her and what she really wants here.
Alot of artists just like to create for themselves, not for others to view. I'm like this, and I know others who are as well. Just because she is talented doesn't mean she wants to be known for it.

Originally Posted by Brutha

Not everyone's idea of life is about expressing talents.

I rather focus on making a positive difference. My history teacher thought that I would have made a fine career in history or a related subject but that's not interesting to me because it's just theory for theory's sake.

I have no problem with people who do art for art's sake but you shouldn't pressure people into it when they have a different utility function.

[brendannz]

I think the best thing to do would be to say "I can't believe you're so talented yet you're not practicing it or getting your work out there. Why don't you"

Or something along those lines, and ask her why she's not pursuing it. Maybe she has her reasons and just wants to do it occasionally for fun. Nothing wrong with that..

[Eric L]

I was totally congruent with my concern with her and she is going to let me help her. I was 200% unforceful.

There is no more doubt, she loves this **** and is holding back.

She still had limiting beliefs but I pretty much obliterated them:

Her: "Yeah, but drawing makes no money!"

Me: "Does it make more money than your current job?"

She is unemployed

Time to unleash the beast.

You guys don't get me yet. I don't force anything unto anyone, to believe I am trying to be like this makes me sad but your concern for this young lady makes me very happy and loving of you all <3

I think the best thing to do would be to say "I can't believe you're so talented yet you're not practicing it or getting your work out there. Why don't you"

Or something along those lines, and ask her why she's not pursuing it. Maybe she has her reasons and just wants to do it occasionally for fun. Nothing wrong with that..

About exactly what I did. The reason she is not doing it is because of negative limiting beliefs that she allowed herself to have.

I am pretty good at eliminating those...

edit: An introduction thread, about myself, will be in order soon. I ought to describe myself to you all so you don't keep thinking I am evil, or something. LOL...teasing

edit#2: I was later confirmed, after talking about it to her, that she had a very aggressive love of her work. Why? She told me she'd possibly hurt me if I managed to ruin one of her drawings. lol. I asked her to give me a few for me to scan and show to people.

So yeah, she loves this ****. And I ought to take care of the fact that my life lies on the fact that I don't ruin a piece of paper she drew on.

[rabbitfur]

Originally Posted by Eric L

I have this lady friend.

She is a mind blowing artist and does not acknowledged it. Nor allows herself to see it. She was given a statement by her father that it wasn't worth pursuing.

To see such talent being discouraged pisses me off, deeply.

I am thinking that, I should ask her to draw something for me, and, possibly forward said drawing to someone in the drawing industry. Her drawings, according to my eyes, are flawless. She seems to be able to draw anything...so beautifully as well, yet she tells me she learned this skill on her own - therefore, this indicates she is passionate about it.

This young woman is a damned good friend of mine and I can't help myself, I must encourage her into this.

She has trouble getting a job, and this skill, is on stand by - for what reason?

GAH!?

Advice/Ideas?

Sounds like you are taking a stand for her and the high quality of person she is. If you succeed, it is the thing our favorite movies that we love are made of! Good luck with causing a breakthrough for another. *high five*

The outstanding quality of my own life is 100% a result of other people standing for me when I was not standing for myself. ALL the good things I have are out of other people's contribution to me and other people's contribution to the world I inherited and continue to have the privilege of living in.

[Eric L]

I look at your post rabbit and all I see in it is a person who is excessively (in a good sense) happy and shares it with everyone.

Thank you for sharing.

[brendannz]

art can be a bit like a sport, in that even if you don't make any money it can be a really healthy practice.

But anyway, ideas on how she could make money from drawing, portraits, caricatures, and pet drawings.