Was Leonardo da Vinci a darkworker?

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

And it frustrates me because I know it's not that different but alas, to go further would have me indulge my craving for a mental jack-off and I've sworn that off.

Yeah, but it feels good. :P

I make it a hobby to investigate the way people think. Yeah, it's useless, but it's fun. And that's all that matters to me right now.

Screw purpose, I'm mentally masturbating. XD

/<3

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I make it a hobby to investigate the way people think. Yeah, it's useless, but it's fun. And that's all that matters to me right now.

That... Isn't useless. When you attain understanding it gives you far more leverage. It's just in that context there was a clear limit on what I could understand so going further would mean indulging in sheer conjecture which, without any lightworkers on hand to provide feedback, would be an exercise in futility.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Then that necessitates discarding ALL labels, including ones like husband (after all, they could get divorced, right?) and all job titles. Humanity needs a sense of identity. That's why labels were created in the first place.

But that's not the important part. If a person calls themselves a darkworker... they're a darkworker. If we call them a darkworker, not necessarily so. We inherently do not have the right to label others, only ourselves.

And that's the point you were trying to make, right?

/<3

More or less yes. But I'm not talking about discarding all labels, just the ones that are based on behaviour. And I'm not even talking about discarding behaviour-based labels either lol

What I'm saying is that behaviour-based labels always only apply to a person's actions in the present moment. And in some minds that reality gets lost. So some people will associate a person's behaviour with their personality traits and make it into something which it is not and then project that reality, consciously or not, towards that individual. That is how personalities are formed and egos "imprisoned" into mental boxes. I think on some level we crave these identities since they help us get a feeling of understanding on the world around us. We don't realize we're forming our own reality through these behaviours. And in the process we limit our scopes.

Labels based on social roles don't have the same impact since they're not based on a person's attitudes and behaviours. A husband is a husband regardless of what he or she does. But yeah people will limit their behaviours to fit the roles too. But at least on this level it's more often than not a conscious choice.

I like mental masturbation too if you hadn't noticed by now

[Cado]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

More or less yes. But I'm not talking about discarding all labels, just the ones that are based on behaviour. And I'm not even talking about discarding behaviour-based labels either lol

What I'm saying is that behaviour-based labels...

Ah, let me stop you right there. Lightworking/darkworking are not behavior based labels. Polarization revolves around motivation. The actions we each take are, in many cases, the same. As I noted, some people try to adopt them as behavior based (and behavior limiting) constructs but they misunderstand polarity on a fundamental level. At its core it's about energy.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

But I'm not talking about discarding all labels, just the ones that are based on behaviour.

Heh. I would have said behavior-based labels are the only valid ones.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

That... Isn't useless. When you attain understanding it gives you far more leverage. It's just in that context there was a clear limit on what I could understand so going further would mean indulging in sheer conjecture which, without any lightworkers on hand to provide feedback, would be an exercise in futility.

Oh!

That makes a little more sense. I might be able to find myself a lightworker, though, and I can rummage around a bit, see what I can get.

I don't really need leverage, though. Not where I am. So it's still kind of useless, for me. ^.^;

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

What I'm saying is that behaviour-based labels always only apply to a person's actions in the present moment. And in some minds that reality gets lost. So some people will associate a person's behaviour with their personality traits and make it into something which it is not and then project that reality, consciously or not, towards that individual. That is how personalities are formed and egos "imprisoned" into mental boxes. I think on some level we crave these identities since they help us get a feeling of understanding on the world around us. We don't realize we're forming our own reality through these behaviours. And in the process we limit our scopes.

There's a vibe here that really freaks me out. And it's not just you, so this isn't personal. What you said here just seems to encompass the kind of mind I'm afraid of, and I'm eager to clarify this even more.

It's the whole, "Careful what you do because it could be dangerous to someone else" thing. It's a combination of what-if, a danger mindset, and some vague delusion about how our actions can absolutely control other's lives.

"In some minds" is the what-if concept. I had a lot of this in another of my threads. People were afraid that *someone* reading the thread would get the wrong idea and seriously damage themselves. Ironically, no one who posted on there seemed to be taking the idea in any damaging kind of way. They all seemed pretty eager to protect themselves, actually.

"Make it" and "imprisoned" is the thing about control.

I have to ask... do you think our perceptions influence a person's behavior, and there's nothing that person can do about it? Like, I'm actually curious. Do you believe that we can somehow force someone to do something they wouldn't normally, just by pressing a label onto them?

Lastly, "we don't realize" and "limit our scopes" have that danger feeling to them. This one is a little more familiar to me, though. You're like me. You don't like being limited, in any capacity. But throwing all the doors wide open won't do a thing. It's possible, but ultimately pointless. If there's something you'd love to do that you find you're limiting yourself in, that's when you throw open the door. We're never in danger of being closed in, especially not by other people. We can do anything. So if we want it, we take it.

Once again, there's the idea... if you're looking for something, that means you don't already have it. Freedom is no exception.

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Ah, let me stop you right there. Lightworking/darkworking are not behavior based labels. Polarization revolves around motivation. The actions we each take are, in many cases, the same. As I noted, some people try to adopt them as behavior based (and behavior limiting) constructs but they misunderstand polarity on a fundamental level. At its core it's about energy.

I'm curious. So you're trying to say that actions, by their nature, can't be polarized? Sorry I didn't catch that before... could you explain that a little more?

/<3

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Karanime

I'm curious. So you're trying to say that actions, by their nature, can't be polarized? Sorry I didn't catch that before... could you explain that a little more?

/<3

Someone leaves a romantic note on the counter for their spouse. Someone gives to a charity. Someone adopts a puppy. Some adopts a child. Someone is forced to fight in a war. Someone starts a war.

Can you guess the polarity of this hypothetical someone based solely on these actions?

Many would think to themselves, "only a darkworker would start a war" but it's not the case; if a lightworker were in a position of power and his people were suffering and all diplomatic efforts had failed you can bet he'd go to arms. On the flipside, a darkworker might do everything possible to avoid a war because it would take a heavy toll on his nation. It'd be a lot of stress and it would eat up resources that could be used elsewhere.

Now put the actions in context and you might be able to divine the motivation, but the motivation is not inherent to the action.

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Someone leaves a romantic note on the counter for their spouse. Someone gives to a charity. Someone adopts a puppy. Some adopts a child. Someone is forced to fight in a war. Someone starts a war.

Can you guess the polarity of this hypothetical someone based solely on these actions?

Alright, that makes sense... but what about procrastination and exploration? Or would those be considered secondary motivations (or lack thereof)?

/<3

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

to go further would have me indulge my craving for a mental jack-off and I've sworn that off.

I've been doing that the past couple of days Illustro. I started posting on my blog again. I got sick of actually creating real value and had to go for a dip. You'll probably like my latest post.

Leonerdo was definitely a darkworker

P.S. It's impossible to permanently kick the habit. Intellectual "stimulation" is part of our path.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

P.S. It's impossible to permanently kick the habit. Intellectual "stimulation" is part of our path.

Stimulation, sure. Accomplishing something isn't antithetical to stimulation. It's possible to keep it so the vast majority of your energies are directed toward something useful. I'm not speaking just of creating value for others, of course-my one question when pursuing a line of thought is, "what can I do with this?" If I can't answer it's probably not worth it. And I have so many things to do that would actually lead somewhere that mere indulgence would only reinforce old patterns I've weakened in the last few months. I'd rather not spin my wheels.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Karanime

Alright, that makes sense... but what about procrastination and exploration? Or would those be considered secondary motivations (or lack thereof)?

/<3

How do either of those counteract polarity? (I know that's not necessarily what you mean to imply but it's the question to pose in response to anything like this. Consider adding it to your tool chest.)

Procrastination might because it means you're not firing on all cylinders. As I understand it that's something which should be done away with fairly early in the process. And note that I'm not talking about putting something off until the last moment because you know you can get it done in that timeframe and/or you work better under pressure, like what you talked about on your blog. I'm speaking of a dread which causes you to delay action as long as humanly possible. I don't think anyone can stay polarized for long while remaining a procrastinator.

As for exploration, I can do it because it would enrich humanity or because I want to see what's out there with my own eyes. It's more an action than a motivation.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Stimulation, sure. Accomplishing something isn't antithetical to stimulation. It's possible to keep it so the vast majority of your energies are directed toward something useful. I'm not speaking just of creating value for others, of course-my one question when pursuing a line of thought is, "what can I do with this?" If I can't answer it's probably not worth it. And I have so many things to do that would actually lead somewhere that mere indulgence would only reinforce old patterns I've weakened in the last few months. I'd rather not spin my wheels.

The important part of masturbation is that you should finish.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

The important part of masturbation is that you should finish.

"Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo da Vinci

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Angela

"Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo da Vinci

My wit has been surpassed. /salute

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

Leonerdo was definitely a darkworker

Definitely? How are you so certain?

Also... Leonerdo?

/<3

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

How do either of those counteract polarity? (I know that's not necessarily what you mean to imply but it's the question to pose in response to anything like this. Consider adding it to your tool chest.)

Procrastination might because it means you're not firing on all cylinders. As I understand it that's something which should be done away with fairly early in the process. And note that I'm not talking about putting something off until the last moment because you know you can get it done in that timeframe and/or you work better under pressure, like what you talked about on your blog. I'm speaking of a dread which causes you to delay action as long as humanly possible. I don't think anyone can stay polarized for long while remaining a procrastinator.

As for exploration, I can do it because it would enrich humanity or because I want to see what's out there with my own eyes. It's more an action than a motivation.

Ah, I see. I hadn't thought of that position for exploration. I had always thought that exploration, by nature, was a personal indulgence.

I meant procrastination in his commissions, which meant, of course, he didn't care enough about them to finish them. But I didn't take into account that he had done so (at least once or twice) with his own projects.

I don't think anyone can stay polarized for long while remaining a procrastinator.

And I just think that was worth repeating.

Nice to see a mind that can catch implications for once.

/<3

[supertom]

Didn't know it before, he thought about robots too

File:Leonardo-Robot3.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is there anything he wasn't into lols

[blossom]

I heard that he drew up blueprints for a helicopter? Obviously he never actually built one, but the fact that he concieved of it back then and drew a design for one...pretty freakin' amazing.

[MariconesUnited]

Sorry for taking so long to reply, people. I've been busy and I've been meditating on the issue also.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Ah, let me stop you right there. Lightworking/darkworking are not behavior based labels. Polarization revolves around motivation. The actions we each take are, in many cases, the same. As I noted, some people try to adopt them as behavior based (and behavior limiting) constructs but they misunderstand polarity on a fundamental level. At its core it's about energy.

Now that I re-read your statement, I finally get it. So to make sure we're on the same page, do we agree that polarization changes throughout an individual's lifetime?

Also, I'd like to bring up another point of contention with the labels...They're based on a false dichotomy. When we help others we benefit from the help we've brought too. So maybe there's a label missing..."Wholeworker" perhaps?

By the way...Yes, I see the irony of arguing against labelling and suggesting a new label

Originally Posted by Karanime

There's a vibe here that really freaks me out. And it's not just you, so this isn't personal. What you said here just seems to encompass the kind of mind I'm afraid of, and I'm eager to clarify this even more.

It's the whole, "Careful what you do because it could be dangerous to someone else" thing. It's a combination of what-if, a danger mindset, and some vague delusion about how our actions can absolutely control other's lives.

"In some minds" is the what-if concept. I had a lot of this in another of my threads. People were afraid that *someone* reading the thread would get the wrong idea and seriously damage themselves. Ironically, no one who posted on there seemed to be taking the idea in any damaging kind of way. They all seemed pretty eager to protect themselves, actually.

"Make it" and "imprisoned" is the thing about control.

I see what you're saying. You're talking about political correctness. On a whole, we're more preoccupied with not offending anyone than we are about seeking the truth. It annoys the **** out of me too so don't worry. It's a mindset that's forged out of fear. But it's not what I'm talking about, I'm basing my arguments on my observations and understanding, which I make an effort to keep as objective as I can.

Originally Posted by Karanime

I have to ask... do you think our perceptions influence a person's behavior, and there's nothing that person can do about it?

There's 2 parts to your question. First, do I think our perceptions influence a person's behaviour? Yes, absolutely. In far-reaching ways that most of us don't take the time to consider. I'll use a gigantic elephant in the room as an example: gender. We're all expected to speak and act a certain way, and when an individual doesn't, most of us unconsciously reinforce the power of labels. So for example, an effeminate man will be often greeted with contempt and disgust. Because that person doesn't fit the label "man". "Boys don't cry" is a ridiculous truism that sculpts most men's behaviours towards their emotions in a negative way. Look around you. There's tons of examples of labels shaping the way people think and act. Examples: Christian, rich, poor, boy, girl, stupid, American, Ethiopian, muslim, etc. I'm sure you can think of tons more. And when I'm talking about behaviour-based labels in particular, you'll notice that many children who grow up in poor neighborhoods often get told they're stupid, worthless, etc. And as a result a lot of them grow up with deep feelings of inferiority that affect their behaviour in profound ways.

Second, do I think that there's nothing that person can do about it? No. It is possible to stretch the limits of labels. And it's directly related to our consciousness and awareness. It also takes a lot of courage and conviction to defy labelling. Some have died because of it. But it's definitely possible, and it's definitely exciting and motivating!

Originally Posted by Karanime

You're like me. You don't like being limited, in any capacity.

At first when you said that my reaction was "This girl doesn't know me, how can she make that claim?". But now that I've let it settle down...I have to say that you're quite perceptive! What you said was completely accurate.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Now that I re-read your statement, I finally get it. So to make sure we're on the same page, do we agree that polarization changes throughout an individual's lifetime?

Also, I'd like to bring up another point of contention with the labels...They're based on a false dichotomy. When we help others we benefit from the help we've brought too. So maybe there's a label missing..."Wholeworker" perhaps?

You really don't understand polarity at all. Once polarized, someone isn't just going to shift back and forth at different stages in their lives. They have to make the choice, and that choice can be a difficult one for the person who feels the impetus to change because it can mean a lot of lost progress and wasted time. If you've ever struggled to change a habit then you surely understand that you can't recalibrate with a snap of your fingers.

Neither light nor dark is incomplete. It's a matter of emphasis-if you're disowning part of your humanity you're not doing it right. IE, a darkworker can be extremely charitable but he's doing it for himself. Altruism doesn't exist in his mind even if the only benefit for his actions is warm-fuzzies. Continue on down the list and you get a paradigm which allows for a consistency and focus which cannot be matched by an unpolarized person. You are stretching your consciousness in one direction until it reaches a critical mass and the paradigm breaks down. Without that stretching of consciousness, without energy, there is no polarization.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

You really don't understand polarity at all. Once polarized, someone isn't just going to shift back and forth at different stages in their lives. They have to make the choice, and that choice can be a difficult one for the person who feels the impetus to change because it can mean a lot of lost progress and wasted time. If you've ever struggled to change a habit then you surely understand that you can't recalibrate with a snap of your fingers.

I see what you're saying. Breaking habits definitely isn't easy and making a switch from devoting all of your energies towards your personal well-being to devoting all your energies towards helping others isn't easy at all. And vice-versa. And yet I do think making a switch is possible. It could take multiple lifetimes, but it's possible.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Neither light nor dark is incomplete. It's a matter of emphasis-if you're disowning part of your humanity you're not doing it right. IE, a darkworker can be extremely charitable but he's doing it for himself. Altruism doesn't exist in his mind even if the only benefit for his actions is warm-fuzzies. Continue on down the list and you get a paradigm which allows for a consistency and focus which cannot be matched by an unpolarized person. You are stretching your consciousness in one direction until it reaches a critical mass and the paradigm breaks down. Without that stretching of consciousness, without energy, there is no polarization.

What I'm saying isn't about disowning part of your humanity. I recognize there is the ego and the self within. It's about a deeper comprehension of the nature of society. A person invented the wheel. We don't know who that is but that person probably got a lot of love and recognition for that person's achievement. A little more recently , Michael Jackson released the album "Thriller", which uplifted millions of people's hopes and enriched their lives through emotion and music. He also got a lot of love, appreciation and money in return (let's not get into other parts of his career...I'm trying to make a point here ). When a person gives, they receive back a lot more than what they gave, whatever it is that they gave. That's where the false dichotomy comes in...there is a 3rd option to polarization.

I really have to thank you for this conversation. You're helping me gain a better understanding of polarization. Is there any reading you could recommend on the topic? And I really have to ask, what happens when your consciousness reaches a critical level and your paradigm breaks down?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

And yet I do think making a switch is possible.

Of course it's possible. There was time in my life when I consciously chose darkworking, although I didn't call it that. But Steve's description of darkworking is what I was choosing, fully conscious that I was choosing it. And then later in my life I consciously chose a path that matches Steve's description of lightworking -- again, fully conscious that I was choosing something deliberately and with volition. Both choices were made long before I ever heard of Steve.

I refer to "Steve's description" of lightworking and darkworking because I have seen different references to these concepts, and wanted to be specific about what I'm talking about.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Angela

Of course it's possible. There was time in my life when I consciously chose darkworking, although I didn't call it that. But Steve's description of darkworking is what I was choosing, fully conscious that I was choosing it. And then later in my life I consciously chose a path that matches Steve's description of lightworking -- again, fully conscious that I was choosing something deliberately and with volition. Both choices were made long before I ever heard of Steve.

I refer to "Steve's description" of lightworking and darkworking because I have seen different references to these concepts, and wanted to be specific about what I'm talking about.

Very interesting. What are these different references and where did you read about them? I wanna know more

[Cado]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I see what you're saying. Breaking habits definitely isn't easy and making a switch from devoting all of your energies towards your personal well-being to devoting all your energies towards helping others isn't easy at all. And vice-versa. And yet I do think making a switch is possible. It could take multiple lifetimes, but it's possible.

Lifetimes? Only if reincarnation is indeed a reality and the individual in question resists the change once they've decided to make it. I doubt a polarity shift is ever a pleasant ride but as with all things it's as quick and easy or as long and painful as you want it to be.

What I'm saying isn't about disowning part of your humanity. I recognize there is the ego and the self within. It's about a deeper comprehension of the nature of society. A person invented the wheel. We don't know who that is but that person probably got a lot of love and recognition for that person's achievement. A little more recently , Michael Jackson released the album "Thriller", which uplifted millions of people's hopes and enriched their lives through emotion and music. He also got a lot of love, appreciation and money in return (let's not get into other parts of his career...I'm trying to make a point here ). When a person gives, they receive back a lot more than what they gave, whatever it is that they gave. That's where the false dichotomy comes in...there is a 3rd option to polarization.

No there isn't. A third option completely negates the idea of polarity. There's nonduality at the end of the tunnel, sure. Perhaps that could be categorized as the third option. For people starting out, though? They can't just choose to be nondualistic. That's a shift which comes from expanding or contracting your consciousness to the point that the line between energies blurs and you tap into the essence underlying both.

I hold that there is no altruism. I'm also quite generous. I'm still a darkworker even though I'm compassionate. When I talked about "disowning your humanity" I wasn't bringing ego and self into the equation, I was speaking strictly of giving/taking. Give and take is part of life; it's another way of framing cause and effect. It is inescapable and even as a selfish person I would be stupid to ignore it.

I really have to thank you for this conversation. You're helping me gain a better understanding of polarization. Is there any reading you could recommend on the topic? And I really have to ask, what happens when your consciousness reaches a critical level and your paradigm breaks down?

Talk to a lightworker if you want their perspective, as for me and my ilk Asmoday does a pretty good job of explaining it:

What is a Darkworker?
Path of the Darkworker
Polarization and Polarity

[Karanime]

Yipes. Someone's talking an awful lot about effects.

"Wholeworker" takes care of the what, maybe even the how. But it doesn't even touch the why.

WHY do you do the things you do? What's that thought process in your head that's starting you out in whatever direction you're going in?

What makes you do?

The why is a million times tougher than the what. The cause is a million times harder to track down than the effect. So it's cool if right now, you have no idea what makes you tick, what principles you're unwittingly following.

But if one day, you sit down and take the time to think about what you're really doing, and you can see the core, see the why, then you'll understand what we mean by polarization.

Polarization is controlling the why.

/<3

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Karanime

snip

Everything she just said.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Karanime

WHY do you do the things you do?

In a nutshell, to help. Peace!

[Karanime]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

In a nutshell, to help. Peace!

Psh, lightworker.

Was that so hard? :P

/<3