let's demystify, shall we?

[rei]

i prefer to keep the private things private, but this has piqued my curiosity and my sense is, if all the folks who may be involved are willing to come together about this - i sense there's a massive shift that would happen. positive progress regardless of polarity or lack of official polarity.

but, i don't intend to FORCE anyone to participate here. and i will respect the sensitivity of certain things, and i will not be revealing identities here. what happens in PMland stays in PMland, but i do sense there is something afoot here and it will be amazingly beneficial for the folks involved to talk openly about it.

my inspiration for starting this thread relates to the light- and darkwork convos that have been going on lately. i think people are getting a little weird about the sense of power. like, one person thought (they) were stealing my power (i had to explain, rather confidently or pushily, that the nature of my vibe is such that it's literally impossible to take my energy unless i am consciously, verbally agreeing to it). that same person had an intuitive idea related to other players.

other players have acted funny about power, getting a little paranoid and suspicious. it's almost like a power virus going around...lol... but i guess since i'm a scorpio who's accepted my powerful side (finally!!), it's not affecting me. but i am seeing a streak of suspicion - suspicion of others and of self in some cases. i know the word "virus" has a negative charge, but i don't mean it that way at all.

what's ironic is this is almost backwards in a sense... the natural (or supposedly characteristic) traits on one side are expressing on the other, and vice versa. it's quite interesting to see... my wild guess would be this is a mirroring, and through conscious level interactions folks are inviting the integration of their shadow selves - but they aren't recognizing it as such, so they are assuming these things are coming from someone else instead of themselves. or, something along those lines.

i honestly don't know what the deal is with this, but i do think that it is not little me who is having this idea to bring it all out here in the open. i invite anyone who reads this and realizes it applies to your own situation to please search your heart, realize i mean you no harm and consider how my intuition could be right - that there could be something incredible on the horizon if you will humor my request to bring all this stuff out in the open. my understanding is that it will be for the highest good as well. since i started this thread, i can - and do - choose to make it an energetically safe space. you can figure out what i mean by that.

oh, and i am adding an edit: i don't literally mean "ALL this stuff" - please don't feel obligated to talk about everything. but i am thinking it would be really helpful to come here if you're involved in this stuff to talk about some of it. i'm not pushing to share more than you're comfortable sharing though. [/edit]

so, any takers? i am not yet clear on the role i need to have if this gets off the ground, but my intention is to remain neutral. i side with neither only-power nor only-love. i acknowledge both... huh... maybe that is another reason i prefer "service-to-all" over the concept of "service-to-others" (even as i affirm that i'm here to provide whatever will seem to benefit the collective). interesting. looks like the trend toward insight is starting already

[Angela]

Wait -- that was meant to DE-mystify?!?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Angela

Wait -- that was meant to DE-mystify?!?

hehe...

it's meant to set the stage anyway

[blossom]

I know in my case, I did not assume, I ASKED the person involved if they were aware of anything funny going on with them, whilst acknowledging my feelings and an experience of feeling my Solar plexus energy centre being drained after having had a conversation with said person. I also acknowledged, as did he, that it could be something unconscious that needed to be brought to light? We have both done some introspection here, so it is sorting itself out I think.

Not knowing for sure if it were the person I thought, and having read a thread a couple of days ago about energy vamps and darkworkers, it is possible that the power of suggestion was at work here? I have also acknowledged to him that it is possible my own stirring of emotional residue after a conversation about past traumas on my side, may have caused these feelings to surface and for energy to leak from my chakra...though I am honestly unsure at this point what really happened? I don't know if paranoia is the right word to use, as there was no fear involved. I asked him and he answered honestly, and we dealt with it.

It does not explain the feeling of being used though? I don't know what that's about? I have communicated with this person though, so I really am not sure if this thread is necessary? We are sorting it out and communicating about it openly and honestly.

[rei]

blossom, this thread isn't just about that. it's about a little web of folks and situations and intuitions and such that includes more than just those particular exchanges.

somehow i ended up privy to little bits and pieces, to a point where my intuition was very strong in encouraging me to get these energies and concerns and etc. etc. out here in the open. i think the privacy may have actually fed any mental-level stuff along those lines. well, that may or may not be one reason i was guided to start the thread. all i know is if enough of the players (four peoples) are willing to participate here and humor me in feeling like it will be helpful, i see some incredible insight/understanding/benefit developing from that.

but i can't force anyone and i don't intend to try. thanks very much for coming and posting here though.

[blossom]

Oh , I see. Damn, there I go thinking it was all about ME again.

[Tren]

We are all gathering from the same Source. I think everyone agreed on that
There has been a definate air of high energy. Whether that energy is individual, brought on by 'stirring' things up within each individual, or if its actually a shared experience I don't know.
What I do know, for me is that there has been a distinct shift.
I thought about posting an apology on another post after posing a question. But that wasn't right. Everyone is free to the wide range of choices to them! Posing a question did not lead to whatever unfolded yet somehow felt responsible for it. (Yes, I tend to take on more responsability than needed and perhaps it self involved to believe that many even gave the op a second thought)
It comes down to self reliance. I know what is good for me.
I will most definately look inside a little deeper before looking for answers outside

[rei]

Originally Posted by blossom

Oh , I see. Damn, there I go thinking it was all about ME again.

well, metaphysically it's all you so it's always all about you

[blossom]

Originally Posted by rei

well, metaphysically it's all you so it's always all about you

Well, true!

[rei]

Originally Posted by Tren

We are all gathering from the same Source. I think everyone agreed on that
There has been a definate air of high energy. Whether that energy is individual, brought on by 'stirring' things up within each individual, or if its actually a shared experience I don't know.
What I do know, for me is that there has been a distinct shift.
I thought about posting an apology on another post after posing a question. But that wasn't right. Everyone is free to the wide range of choices to them! Posing a question did not lead to whatever unfolded yet somehow felt responsible for it. (Yes, I tend to take on more responsability than needed and perhaps it self involved to believe that many even gave the op a second thought)
It comes down to self reliance. I know what is good for me.
I will most definately look inside a little deeper before looking for answers outside

Tren...

lovely words...

just realized i was (starting to) fumble around here and already trying to direct the flow instead of letting the coalescence of consciousness bring itself to greater clarity and understanding. i am chilling out with that though, and trusting that all the bits of consciousness involved in this will bring forward what is needed.

[Cado]

I won't go too into detail since my policy is that anything that gets shared in private stays private barring direct permission from the other person, and if there's permission to share I'd rather the other person speak for themselves than do it myself.

The long and short of it is that I've been communicating heavily with both Andrew and blossom for the last month. With Andrew, I initiated correspondence to see if we could facilitate mutual respect and understanding. With blossom, it felt like we had a lot in common so I figured, "why not?" With her, polarity didn't come into the conversation until... A week, maybe two weeks ago? She was asking for information so I elaborated on my side of things.

With Andrew, I posed a challenge: we would each partake of something the other person suggested barring an intuitive nudge which would indicate that doing so would slow our progress, in which case something else would be chosen. As a show of good will I volunteered to go first. It seemed only fair considering he had looked at everything I posted prior to contacting him. In the month leading up to the first part of the challenge I shared the basics of my personal story and I talked about my take on darkworking and how certain strong emotions had been brought to the surface by the work I was doing.

I considered it an open stage; he was free to add anything to the conversation that he wanted just as I did. Since I could see he was dealing with some heavy-duty anger issues I suggested The Foci Exercise and Collaging. Neither of those is particularly "dark" and as I see it they can easily be adapted to serve someone on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's not like introspection is our thing, everybody's going to do it to varying degrees no matter what road they walk, it's just a specialty of the dark path.

However, I felt the conversation was very one-sided. I did most of the talking. Occasionally something I said might spark a forum thread which wasn't so bad; it was actually kind of nice to get some of those ideas out into the open, especially when it helped me see where I was clinging to an old tendency that was holding me back. So long as he'd respond directly to my notes on our challenge, I really didn't care how much or how little he said to me in private.

Around one week ago I finished my first challenge by reading "The Power of Now." At first I was uncertain whether or not I should but I figured if merely reading a book would be enough to undo my progress I hadn't made any progress at all. Plus, I didn't want to be the type of person who judges something without ever having read it. See, I wanted to pierce some of my own prejudices too-namely that everything lightworkers use is new age gobbledygook with no practical basis. Now, in my opinion that book had plenty of that, but it had a lot more substance than I was expected and even gave me a helpful tool for centering myself. Indeed, drawing into the present moment is something I think everyone needs to master because everyone will need 100% of their focus on what's going on -now- when the situation calls for it. Where lightworkers and darkworkers differ, again, is how and why they'll do it. I've got more thoughts on the book but I'm not going to turn this thread into a critique on it so there might be a topic on it later.

Anyways, I posed a challenge back to Andrew-read "The Family." I finished it not too long ago myself and I thought it was a perfect example of how well meaning people can do a lot of damage. There are darkworkers in there, too, make no mistake, but the central figures of the book-Jonathan Edwards, Abraham Vereide, Doug Coe-are all what I'd classify as twisted lightworkers. The intent was to show Andrew how some people, people like me, have been hurt by lightworkers and how both twisted lightworkers and darkworkers are responsible for the terrible things that happen in our world.

A short time later, I got a message from him saying that he was going to stop communicating with me. He used the word "nightmarish" again-a term he had always used to describe me-and said he felt I was draining his energy. I didn't see that there was any way to convince the guy that I wasn't trying to suck out his soul so I wrote a quick reply and reminded him, in light of the tone of his message, "we've all got our choices to make."

Yesterday I sent another message to him after his initial post in do lightworkers ever tire of giving? in which I mirrored back to him what he had given me. I told him that he felt really fake to me, like he was using lightworker speak to cover over his pain and pretend it wasn't a problem. I noted that the extreme sensitivity he often talks about is neither natural nor healthy as it indicates there is deeply rooted pain that hasn't been dealt with. I didn't say this, but so long as it's present it will run him. At the end I tagged on, "And it really doesn't matter if I'm wrong because if I intuited it it must be right" or something like that. The whole thing was very much in line with, "do unto others as they do unto you" and it fit with what I told him when we first started talking-respect me and I'll respect you. It works for the negative side of things as well. I was, or at least tried to be, a lot more constructive than I may have been in other situations because I think Andrew has potential, he's just not going to do anything with it so long as he blames other people for his problems.

I know he sent another message after that but I haven't looked at it. I'll be honest-I deleted it. He was becoming a drain on my energy. If things cool down and he wants to talk later, fine, I might give it another shot. For now things are best left as they are.

[rei]

Illustro,

would you say more on this notion of taking energy? since you are so introspective, do you think you would know if you were doing that to others?

and, what are some of your ideas for why people may perceive things as you taking their energy if you are somehow capable of knowing you aren't consciously/unconsciously doing that?

[Cado]

My take on it is that I wasn't taking anyone's energy. In all likeliness what was happening is that their shadows were coming to the surface and I was partly the trigger.

I did consider the notion that I could be taking energy unconsciously because I know I had a lot of vampiric traits when I was neutral and it would only make sense that it would be somehow augmented through polarization until the block cleared. Maybe that happened, I don't know. It's hard to imagine it could occur over such a distance, especially without conscious intent behind it, but I know that even though 80% to 90% of the variables involved in human interaction are removed when communicating through text there's still an energy exchange.

The reason I don't think I was the cause is because, at least in blossom's case, it happened after she started talking about some of the **** she went through. I know from personal experience that when you start digging for the root of your pain it's going to hurt like hell and you're going to feel like somebody took the wind out of your sails. I remember being knocked off my feet for a whole weekend once because I brought suppressed anger to the surface. If I was drawing energy from anyone it's likely because the other person became aware of an energy leak they haven't patched up and it came to light while they were talking to me. I would suggest running a diagnostic of sorts and checking to see if energy is unconsciously flowing to other people they didn't mean to give it to. That's the only way to ascertain what's really going on.

With that said, I rule nothing out and I have no intention of being a vampire. I told blossom that if it ever feels like talking to me drains her I want her to tell me so that it can be resolved. After all, I'm still in the early stages of all this and I have a lot of learning to do. You don't give the guards the night off just because no one is encroaching on the castle. If there were such a void inside of me it has to be taken care of otherwise it's just going to hamstring me at a critical time down the road.

[rei]

Illustro, i agree that there may be some shadow self things going on in those situations. i want to thank you for participating here so thoroughly - i can tell you may not be entirely pleased with how things have unfolded around this situation. meaning, i think you dislike this sense of misunderstanding and being (possibly) misperceived. i haven't met anyone who enjoys that. but, i know it may not be my place to share my impressions of how you are responding to the role you're in.

so, i want to thank you for making an effort to participate here - and i want to thank everyone else for coming and talking about these things. i hope the discussion will continue, i feel like there is already a bit of progress and i can see the potential for more. there is another party i've gently encouraged to participate here. it is up to that individual though, i have no interest in creating a sense of pressure to join in the discussion.

accepting one's shadow can be daunting - it is, by definition, that part of us we have rejected and tried to pretend doesn't exist as part of us. so, it's much easier and comfortable to view it as coming from someone or something other than ourselves.

thanks to everyone for coming and so boldly trusting my intuition or just being willing to see if anything of value will come from this. if anything else comes up for you that you sense could be related to this thread, or could be of value to bring forward to discuss or express, i ask you to please continue sharing here. who knows what capacity for additional personal insight exists here (seems like there's a lot of potential though).

[Cado]

Originally Posted by rei

Illustro, i agree that there may be some shadow self things going on in those situations. i want to thank you for participating here so thoroughly - i can tell you may not be entirely pleased with how things have unfolded around this situation. meaning, i think you dislike this sense of misunderstanding and being (possibly) misperceived. i haven't met anyone who enjoys that. but, i know it may not be my place to share my impressions of how you are responding to the role you're in.

You're absolutely right. I feel I was judged a villain when I've done nothing to deserve it, but I know my character stands well enough on its own so I don't need to go to great lengths to defend myself. People will always see things how they want to, I can only tell them how it happened from my perspective.

I welcome feedback so if there are further impressions you want to share feel free to send a private message. That's what it means for the two sides to work together, no?

[wolfgang]

my inspiration for starting this thread relates to the light- and darkwork convos that have been going on lately. i think people are getting a little weird about the sense of power. like, one person thought (they) were stealing my power (i had to explain, rather confidently or pushily, that the nature of my vibe is such that it's literally impossible to take my energy unless i am consciously, verbally agreeing to it). that same person had an intuitive idea related to other players.

As you see others is how you see yourself. If there's a reaction in you, it means whatever the other person is doing that is causing a reaction in you has been projected out of your psych and identified in someone else as a projection of part of you that you deny as being you. "No I'm not that way and you are and that is not they way to be". That is probably an energy sucker. There is a fragmented self in play. However the power is not taken in by the accused, imo. Just that the accused is being a messenger for you to notice what you judge as not you and listen and forgive so that you can be whole again.

other players have acted funny about power, getting a little paranoid and suspicious. it's almost like a power virus going around...lol... but i guess since i'm a scorpio who's accepted my powerful side (finally!!), it's not affecting me. but i am seeing a streak of suspicion - suspicion of others and of self in some cases. i know the word "virus" has a negative charge, but i don't mean it that way at all.

I haven't been seeing the suspicion. I have had very very few PM exchanges. I don't understand what kind of power you are talking about. Someone else being a trigger for your own shadow - is that a power shift? Does the trigging in you mean the accused has you under their thumb? Could it be triggers of shadow is the very place to go into forgiveness - so to release victim and accusing?

what's ironic is this is almost backwards in a sense... the natural (or supposedly characteristic) traits on one side are expressing on the other, and vice versa. it's quite interesting to see... my wild guess would be this is a mirroring, and through conscious level interactions folks are inviting the integration of their shadow selves - but they aren't recognizing it as such, so they are assuming these things are coming from someone else instead of themselves. or, something along those lines.

I don't know what you mean by it being backwards. Maybe because I haven't been in the mix of the specifics for this. But I could say, some people seem to get less then humble and need to feel right by either making sure someone else agrees or if they don't - tell them they are wrong and in general do their thing that ruffles feathers in someone else. They act out as it were an attack, in a way and create a victim.

I'm not just saying this forum - just in general as how it goes in relationships.

Now, the attacker is also the accused from the victim's side and it's the victim that projected what ever it is the attacker is doing onto them, otherwise you would not have a reaction and maybe just not like what the attacker is doing and carry one without needing to react.

I suppose the attacker could also be already feeling like a victim somehow and already projected something on the other in such a way that their shadow is causing them to lash out.

Well, I know it's not really what you were looking for. But just some ideas related, at least to me.

[rei]

wolfgang, as far as my own role and perspective are concerned here, i'm fairly certain i am responding and not reacting. there is not any urgency, compulsion, or intense emotion for me around this situation or these conversations.

but your reply has echoed what both i and IC have said about integrating the shadow self... acknowledging the mirror...

some of what i discussed in the OP may only make any sense at all to those who have been directly involved in the situation. but some of your general impressions and points could be validly applied to the general dynamics being discussed here, whether or not you as an individual have been consciously/directly involved.

i was definitely not saying all my PM convos involve suspicion. i was referring only to the very recent exchanges, and i wasn't saying that sentiment was directed at me either, it was just becoming a theme.

saying it seems almost backwards is a reference to the supposed characteristics of lightworkers seeming expressed more by those who are self-identifying as darkworkers, and the opposite was true in a sense as well (self-labeled lightworkers doing what a darkworker is often said to do or expressing as such). which just adds to my notion that this is bringing up shadow selves wanting to be accepted and integrated.

i am not usually so roundabout or mysterious in starting threads. but like i said in the OP, i prefer to honor the sense of privacy. which means i was not personally comfortable with the potential disloyalty involved in speaking directly about those things which are discussed privately. but i recognize this may sound to someone who hasn't been participating as if i am just adding to the confusion instead of encouraging greater clarity.

thank you for participating here and sharing your understanding.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

You're absolutely right. I feel I was judged a villain when I've done nothing to deserve it, but I know my character stands well enough on its own so I don't need to go to great lengths to defend myself. People will always see things how they want to, I can only tell them how it happened from my perspective.

I welcome feedback so if there are further impressions you want to share feel free to send a private message. That's what it means for the two sides to work together, no?

i'm actually at work right now, but i am glad there is a dialogue going on here, and i am glad you were not offended that i shared how it seemed to be for you.

if i have other impressions that seem significant or helpful or seem to be feedback you would want, i will take you up on that request for a PM.

[Andrew Gubb]

Hi guys.

Thanks to rei's gentle nudging I'm going to post some excerpts of a PM I sent her, and then add some more thoughts if I have the time.

[...]I was actually thinking more of Blossom. I saw her write something a while back about trying out darkworking and I got this hit of discord. I don't know what the source of it was but the message felt like, "This is NOT what she came here to do!" The feeling reminded me of what I felt when I saw my twin soul was lost in her personal darkness and disconnected from herself / from light. It made me... makes me want to cry so much. It hurts. And I think mixed up in their is my own pain from being disconnected from Source (something which made me want to kill myself as I had felt it and couldn't stand living without it), and the pain at seeing my parents disconnected from Source/light/their own core (their own light/deepest truth).... and my own core and light and truth. And then the pain at seeing the whole world disconnected. It hurts so much.

OK so now you know what I'm getting at - I know you feel this connection - how can you say that darkworkers can continue their path when it is going in the opposite direction as this?

Or do you think they are not going in the opposite direction?

My heart feeling is that they are. This arrogance of the darkworker is the opposite. You know, the "I am God"/"I am the one and only ruler of my own universe" arrogance which they use as their basis of their growth. It's a belief in being something which is not light (which is automatically darkness... I get this idea darkness is an illusion... they believe they are something that doesn't exist... but the disconnect is real... right?). I feel so much pain in people being not their deepest truth.

And of course pain in myself not being there (no longer suicidal, feeling pretty happy moment to moment, lots of moments of wonder at the beauty of things and the incredibleness of life, but still such a desire to reach that state of utter bliss at everything, utter rightness, where everything is so clear and bright and true). Which according to all your metaphysics is what I should work on to heal the rest of the stuff in my subjective reality.

I'm so sorry for all this pain I'm projecting on you Rei. I know you're not the source of it.

Then about the anger I had with rei:

And I know I sound angry at you but as you know the anger is not at you really - it is just what you have stirred up - and I know that too. I feel this anger but as soon as I observe it I kind of disbelieve it - I can tell it's not true - but I have to sort through it without resisting, anyway.

I remember during my worst times when the hatred in my eyes was so strong that people were scared of me, I never did anything to hurt anyone - except once, at about my lowest point - but point is, I don't let the anger BE me.

Perhaps that's a symptom of repression too come to think of it, I don't know. But yeah. I might hurt but I don't forget how much I sincerely appreciate you.

Thankyou to guides and Source too.

Now I'll write something for Cado.

[Andrew Gubb]

Cado, as you can read above I felt huge pain from the disconnect from Source I've experienced in my life since I've felt it so strong at times. This joy and love is what I want everyone, including myself, to have, and I consider it to be our true nature.

Now this pain isn't logical or rational - so I lashed out on you. You seem now to symbolise all I'm working against. I'm still waiting for rei to confirm for me (as I trust her as a much wiser version of what I'd like to be) whether you really ARE going in the opposite direction to me, but it has seemed so. And this idea has been so horrible to me, has pushed my buttons in such a way that I find it difficult to treat you with the respect you deserve.

As for energy exchange - I really did feel like you were drawing energy from me, or trying to. It reminded me of a very dark person before who tried to take the role of my spiritual teacher and managed to get a grasp on me thanks to a low self-esteem on my part. His mode of being was like this, and I am sure totally unconscious for him: he would always find a way of convincing me that I was not good enough, not strong enough, not healthy enough, not enough spiritually developed. He'd give, but only so he could take more.

When I abruptly changed my mind about you I suddenly had the vision of you doing the same thing. The fact is that you often talk about my wounds and my failings. Fine, I like constructive criticism more than most, but I feel like you had energetic reasons to point out my wounds all the time. The message is "you're wounded, you need help" - "who can help me?" - "come to papa". If I fall into that game I'm always looking for approval from the other, having been convinced that I can not take care of myself, and I become effectively his slave - allowing my energy to be siphoned off constantly.

As I said this exact pattern happened once before. When you started talking to me I was wary of you as I understood darkworkers to be, well, dark, but I took a bit of distance and let you tell me your side of the story.

Now when I felt this energetic hit of discord I mentioned above when reading Blossom, I suddenly felt like I had to reevaluate. I sent her some PMs with my thoughts, trying, perhaps arrogantly, to save her, and then eventually that PM to you saying I broke off communication. (I am sorry that this happened when it was my turn in the challenge, but I felt like even the challenge was a means of keeping me connected energetically to you).

As for what I feel in your aura and what I have felt in Asmoday's aura -- well, I'm not saying my intuition is infallible. But I have felt that, I'm sorry. As I said, I've always assumed that dark is dark. Maybe I am missing a piece, we'll have to see - I keep my mind open.

In any case subjective reality says you are an aspect of me - so it makes no sense to reject you. I am sorry for what I have sent energetically your way (anger, pain) while expressing my opinion. I think it's clear that this discussion has been a healing session for me and perhaps others. Today I feel very different, with much thanks to Rei. Like, much lighter... and indeed, even more sensitive (which, my friend, is not to do with wounds, it is to do with purity. Ask Rei if you want to. Now I had better learn to protect my energy fast... I know this. But it's not a wound. Almost all people who do not know what it's like to be indigo or crystal make that mistake).

I hope I've cleared up some stuff for you and we don't have to have any animosity between us. I am very sorry for letting you down in the challenge. And I don't wish to judge you or stigmatise you for your creed. Perhaps the energy draining I felt has nothing to do with you being a darkworker; perhaps it's your unconscious stuff still there, or perhaps it's any other reason.

Be well,

Andrew

[blossom]

I don't see you as a villain Cado. You have real character to you, and whilst I have been confused about what actually was going on with this experience, I have found you to be always willing to be honest about yourself and encouraging of me, as well as supportive even though I asked you if you were the source of this apparent draining. That isn't an easy thing to be on the recieving end of, and it takes someone with a strong character to be willing to look at it without getting defensive, as you didn't.

I think it's possible that the draining could have come from having bad memories stirred after speaking with you about traumas from my past, and I recognise that whilst you did offer this as a possibility, you didn't do it in a way that was putting it all on me to avoid looking at yourself, you offered it in a supportive way, and I appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

You're absolutely right. I feel I was judged a villain when I've done nothing to deserve it, but I know my character stands well enough on its own so I don't need to go to great lengths to defend myself. People will always see things how they want to, I can only tell them how it happened from my perspective.

I welcome feedback so if there are further impressions you want to share feel free to send a private message. That's what it means for the two sides to work together, no?

[blossom]

Andrew, I know that when a person reminds you of someone else from your past, it can be very hard to distinguish whether that person's behaviour is the same as the other person's, and the mind can take that association and make it almost impossible for you to see the present person as they are, and all you can see is the memories of the way the past peron treated you, which can cause our defenses to kick in. It is important to be able to recognise that this is what is happening though, and that it is in YOUR mind. It doesn't mean that, in reality, the person you think is evil is actually doing anything wrong!

I have been on the other side of the fence...where Cado is now I imagine, and been the person that reminded someone else of a person from their past who was abusive or harmful to them in some way. It is a terrible experience to be made out to be evil when you really aren't doing anything to deserve it other than reminding them of someone from their past who was!

Also, it's nice that you feel protective of me, and that's a very manly trait. If I feel like I am in danger or somehow need protection though, I will let you know, o.k. I am not the "Damsel in distress" here.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Cado, as you can read above I felt huge pain from the disconnect from Source I've experienced in my life since I've felt it so strong at times. This joy and love is what I want everyone, including myself, to have, and I consider it to be our true nature.

Now this pain isn't logical or rational - so I lashed out on you. You seem now to symbolise all I'm working against. I'm still waiting for rei to confirm for me (as I trust her as a much wiser version of what I'd like to be) whether you really ARE going in the opposite direction to me, but it has seemed so. And this idea has been so horrible to me, has pushed my buttons in such a way that I find it difficult to treat you with the respect you deserve.

As for energy exchange - I really did feel like you were drawing energy from me, or trying to. It reminded me of a very dark person before who tried to take the role of my spiritual teacher and managed to get a grasp on me thanks to a low self-esteem on my part. His mode of being was like this, and I am sure totally unconscious for him: he would always find a way of convincing me that I was not good enough, not strong enough, not healthy enough, not enough spiritually developed. He'd give, but only so he could take more.

When I abruptly changed my mind about you I suddenly had the vision of you doing the same thing. The fact is that you often talk about my wounds and my failings. Fine, I like constructive criticism more than most, but I feel like you had energetic reasons to point out my wounds all the time. The message is "you're wounded, you need help" - "who can help me?" - "come to papa". If I fall into that game I'm always looking for approval from the other, having been convinced that I can not take care of myself, and I become effectively his slave - allowing my energy to be siphoned off constantly.

As I said this exact pattern happened once before. When you started talking to me I was wary of you as I understood darkworkers to be, well, dark, but I took a bit of distance and let you tell me your side of the story.

Now when I felt this energetic hit of discord I mentioned above when reading Blossom, I suddenly felt like I had to reevaluate. I sent her some PMs with my thoughts, trying, perhaps arrogantly, to save her, and then eventually that PM to you saying I broke off communication. (I am sorry that this happened when it was my turn in the challenge, but I felt like even the challenge was a means of keeping me connected energetically to you).

As for what I feel in your aura and what I have felt in Asmoday's aura -- well, I'm not saying my intuition is infallible. But I have felt that, I'm sorry. As I said, I've always assumed that dark is dark. Maybe I am missing a piece, we'll have to see - I keep my mind open.

In any case subjective reality says you are an aspect of me - so it makes no sense to reject you. I am sorry for what I have sent energetically your way (anger, pain) while expressing my opinion. I think it's clear that this discussion has been a healing session for me and perhaps others. Today I feel very different, with much thanks to Rei. Like, much lighter... and indeed, even more sensitive (which, my friend, is not to do with wounds, it is to do with purity. Ask Rei if you want to. Now I had better learn to protect my energy fast... I know this. But it's not a wound. Almost all people who do not know what it's like to be indigo or crystal make that mistake).

I hope I've cleared up some stuff for you and we don't have to have any animosity between us. I am very sorry for letting you down in the challenge. And I don't wish to judge you or stigmatise you for your creed. Perhaps the energy draining I felt has nothing to do with you being a darkworker; perhaps it's your unconscious stuff still there, or perhaps it's any other reason.

Be well,

Andrew

[rei]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Thanks to rei's gentle nudging I'm going to post some excerpts of a PM I sent her, and then add some more thoughts if I have the time.

thank you, Andrew, for sharing here. and for doing so even while you and i were in the middle of a difference of opinion

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Quote:
[...]I was actually thinking more of Blossom. I saw her write something a while back about trying out darkworking and I got this hit of discord. I don't know what the source of it was but the message felt like, "This is NOT what she came here to do!" The feeling reminded me of what I felt when I saw my twin soul was lost in her personal darkness and disconnected from herself / from light. It made me... makes me want to cry so much. It hurts. And I think mixed up in their is my own pain from being disconnected from Source (something which made me want to kill myself as I had felt it and couldn't stand living without it), and the pain at seeing my parents disconnected from Source/light/their own core (their own light/deepest truth).... and my own core and light and truth. And then the pain at seeing the whole world disconnected. It hurts so much.

OK so now you know what I'm getting at - I know you feel this connection - how can you say that darkworkers can continue their path when it is going in the opposite direction as this?

they are two sides of the same coin. both lead to the same conclusion taking a different focus and with different methods.

Source is all of us. each of us is an aspect of Source. and the collective is an aspect of Source. it is not going "away from Source" to be a darkworker. it is just focusing on the individuated consciousness manifestation of Source instead of focusing on the collective as a manifestation of Source.

Source is love. choosing to express love toward self is not wrong. it is concentrating love energy as the lightworker does - and focusing that love on Source-as-self instead of the collective expression of Source. when you incorporate the hermetic principle this is all quite logical, or at least it is to me. i don't think a darkworker really can focus on growing through reflection and love of self, and not have that mirrored in the world.

there is a big difference between the act of polarizing and the act of choosing to further distortion. lightworkers and darkworkers have both created or furthered distortion. that is not the same as polarity.

if a person chooses to harm with intention, that's not cool. but it is not related to polarizing in my opinion, or at least, not inherent in the path or the decision to polarize. plenty of folks make that choice and have no conscious knowledge of either of these paths.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Or do you think they are not going in the opposite direction?

this. well, in one way of viewing it yes they are opposite directions. but they both swing around in an arc to end in the same place.

or really, the outline of a heart <3 would accurately depict my understanding of how these two paths flow - from a long view.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

My heart feeling is that they are. This arrogance of the darkworker is the opposite. You know, the "I am God"/"I am the one and only ruler of my own universe" arrogance which they use as their basis of their growth. It's a belief in being something which is not light (which is automatically darkness... I get this idea darkness is an illusion... they believe they are something that doesn't exist... but the disconnect is real... right?). I feel so much pain in people being not their deepest truth.

i don't think the disconnect is real in an objective or ultimate sense. a person may choose to believe he or she is disconnected, and then that becomes true within the belief system. but i think even a person who decides to believe he or she is disconnected is still connected.

i don't see arrogance here either. if that were true, then there's a ton of arrogant LoA practitioners as well. and i think someone has already said they don't believe they are not light, they just choose to work with the darkness that exists within all of us.

the light is there, whether they choose to focus on it or not. they can't help but be their deepest truth. i think anyone who found a way to truly ignore and release their inner light would fall over dead. that doesn't happen to these folks who polarize, so the light is still there.

the surface self, the personality, can make choices that have no real bearing on the core self.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm so sorry for all this pain I'm projecting on you Rei. I know you're not the source of it.

i'm glad you acknowledged that. i knew it wasn't about me, glad you do too.

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Quote:
And I know I sound angry at you but as you know the anger is not at you really - it is just what you have stirred up - and I know that too. I feel this anger but as soon as I observe it I kind of disbelieve it - I can tell it's not true - but I have to sort through it without resisting, anyway.

I remember during my worst times when the hatred in my eyes was so strong that people were scared of me, I never did anything to hurt anyone - except once, at about my lowest point - but point is, I don't let the anger BE me.

Perhaps that's a symptom of repression too come to think of it, I don't know. But yeah. I might hurt but I don't forget how much I sincerely appreciate you.

Thankyou to guides and Source too.

yes, repression is the word that jumped out at me here. i think these experiences have dislodged old pain for you, and you accepted it and have begun working with/through it consciously. even your concern for blossom, i don't think it was really about her. i think it was the adult you trying to help and save the vulnerable younger you, and not having a realistic outlet for that, you focused that attention on someone you chose to see as vulnerable. but i think much of your emotional landscape around this situation has been about you, your experiences, and your stuff.

from the look of it, you're already making incredible progress in owning it and accepting it and becoming even more of your best self. thank you for your courage in doing that work, and thank you again for participating here.

i will add, i think there are still things that could be said between you and IC. i see a sense of hurt, disconnection, and artificial separation between the two of you. i hope the fence will be mended there.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by rei

i prefer to keep the private things private, but this has piqued my curiosity and my sense is, if all the folks who may be involved are willing to come together about this - i sense there's a massive shift that would happen. positive progress regardless of polarity or lack of official polarity.

but, i don't intend to FORCE anyone to participate here. and i will respect the sensitivity of certain things, and i will not be revealing identities here. what happens in PMland stays in PMland, but i do sense there is something afoot here and it will be amazingly beneficial for the folks involved to talk openly about it.

my inspiration for starting this thread relates to the light- and darkwork convos that have been going on lately. i think people are getting a little weird about the sense of power. like, one person thought (they) were stealing my power (i had to explain, rather confidently or pushily, that the nature of my vibe is such that it's literally impossible to take my energy unless i am consciously, verbally agreeing to it). that same person had an intuitive idea related to other players.

other players have acted funny about power, getting a little paranoid and suspicious. it's almost like a power virus going around...lol... but i guess since i'm a scorpio who's accepted my powerful side (finally!!), it's not affecting me. but i am seeing a streak of suspicion - suspicion of others and of self in some cases. i know the word "virus" has a negative charge, but i don't mean it that way at all.

what's ironic is this is almost backwards in a sense... the natural (or supposedly characteristic) traits on one side are expressing on the other, and vice versa. it's quite interesting to see... my wild guess would be this is a mirroring, and through conscious level interactions folks are inviting the integration of their shadow selves - but they aren't recognizing it as such, so they are assuming these things are coming from someone else instead of themselves. or, something along those lines.

i honestly don't know what the deal is with this, but i do think that it is not little me who is having this idea to bring it all out here in the open. i invite anyone who reads this and realizes it applies to your own situation to please search your heart, realize i mean you no harm and consider how my intuition could be right - that there could be something incredible on the horizon if you will humor my request to bring all this stuff out in the open. my understanding is that it will be for the highest good as well. since i started this thread, i can - and do - choose to make it an energetically safe space. you can figure out what i mean by that.

oh, and i am adding an edit: i don't literally mean "ALL this stuff" - please don't feel obligated to talk about everything. but i am thinking it would be really helpful to come here if you're involved in this stuff to talk about some of it. i'm not pushing to share more than you're comfortable sharing though. [/edit]

so, any takers? i am not yet clear on the role i need to have if this gets off the ground, but my intention is to remain neutral. i side with neither only-power nor only-love. i acknowledge both... huh... maybe that is another reason i prefer "service-to-all" over the concept of "service-to-others" (even as i affirm that i'm here to provide whatever will seem to benefit the collective). interesting. looks like the trend toward insight is starting already

Well, despite polarizing as a darkworker, I still hold the 'meta belief' that there is no self and other, no such thing as duality and that everything is just primal chaos (or Source, whatever you want to call it). But I think the human psyche has this predisposition toward feeling like something big is coming in the future. As life, technology and general consciousness is increasing exponentially on this planet, every single day is a broader horizon. I have the same feeling of something about to occur to consciousness on this planet. But I think it's just an illusion of past/future dualistic mind. There's always something about to occur and it's always something big.

I'll eat my words if we all start flying around and shooting green laserbeams out of our bums. I have a feeling that's not what you meant though

[rei]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Well, despite polarizing as a darkworker, I still hold the 'meta belief' that there is no self and other, no such thing as duality and that everything is just primal chaos (or Source, whatever you want to call it). But I think the human psyche has this predisposition toward feeling like something big is coming in the future. As life, technology and general consciousness is increasing exponentially on this planet, every single day is a broader horizon. I have the same feeling of something about to occur to consciousness on this planet. But I think it's just an illusion of past/future dualistic mind. There's always something about to occur and it's always something big.

I'll eat my words if we all start flying around and shooting green laserbeams out of our bums. I have a feeling that's not what you meant though

not what i meant at all. i meant a micro/personal level profundity. a personal level shift. i didn't mean big for everyone on the planet (except how the ripple effect might unfold anyway)... silly rabbit...

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Cado

I'm not gonna quote the whole post since I'm going to jump between various points as they come to mind.

First, I understand. I've been hurt by so-called spiritual teachers too. I think I've made it clear that I wasn't trying to do it to you. As I said, I welcomed criticism and discussion. I thought that much was clear but if not then I apologize.

There's little else I can say you're not becoming aware of concerning you personally. I won't touch upon that. It's not my place anymore. I've said what I needed to say.

Now to clarify a few things: when I say sensitivity, I'm talking about the extreme pain that goes with it. Again, I've been there. I'm pretty sensitive to the flow of energy and there have been many times in my life when I couldn't stomach what was coming my way because it was simply repulsive. But was it really? That was a perception. I was vulnerable because of my pain. Sensitivity doesn't have to dim for there to be no pain. This gets confusing because sensitivity is the operative word regardless of how it's being used.

According to your own belief you are god, are you not? So how am I cutting myself off from the divine in proudly proclaiming that that's what I am? It's a different focus, that's all. My way is not better, it is simply my way and I offer insight to anyone who wants it. Light or dark, more conscious people results in a better world for me. There's no need for animosity between us and I never considered there to be any. I said what I needed to say and I can speak my mind freely on the forums so it's not like it could hurt or hinder me, not unless I allowed it to.

I think that's all that's left to say on the subject for my end. I'm running on low sleep so you'll have to forgive me if this isn't as coherent as usual. I just wanted to get this out of the way.

[Tren]

I'm pretty sensitive to the flow of energy and there have been many times in my life when I couldn't stomach what was coming my way because it was simply repulsive. But was it really? That was a perception. I was vulnerable because of my pain.

Thank you Cado. This is what I have been feeling but not able to articulate.

[ssandra]

Andrew:

Maybe you are confusing Darkworkers with Negative Souls?

Both are choices, but where Darkworking is a choice on a human, this life time conscious level, a Negative Soul is a choice on a soul level...

Negative souls would take away energy from other people, unconsciously, but on purpose on soul level. They can change, but usually don't.

Darkworking is simply another way of being. Focussing inward instead of outward. And since we are all one, it is good to have parts of yourself to focus inward and other parts outward. But they don't take away energy from other people, nor do they walk away from the source...

At least that is how I understand it...

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Andrew:

Maybe you are confusing Darkworkers with Negative Souls?

Both are choices, but where Darkworking is a choice on a human, this life time conscious level, a Negative Soul is a choice on a soul level...

Negative souls would take away energy from other people, unconsciously, but on purpose on soul level. They can change, but usually don't.

Darkworking is simply another way of being. Focussing inward instead of outward. And since we are all one, it is good to have parts of yourself to focus inward and other parts outward. But they don't take away energy from other people, nor do they walk away from the source...

At least that is how I understand it...

Hey Ssandra,

Yes, when I started all this I felt strongly that they were the same thing.

Now I believe I've made a mistake.

I remember on Akemi's blog hearing from negative souls how they consciously wanted to become positive - yet subconsciously, no change. Hmm.

Just because someone's decided something, I don't think they can change something on a soul level like that easily.

Andrew

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Just because someone's decided something, I don't think they can change something on a soul level like that easily.

Andrew

Although it might not be easy, I do believe everybody can change, all the time.

On soul level and simply consciously here.

I do believe there are people who might have a negative soul, but I also believe that it is a choice, and as with every choice, it can be reversed.

I just believe this though.. I'm by no means an expert....