What I learned from being kicked out of a project

[Froztwolf]

A few months ago I joined a group of people that were going to set up a dating site. After a few months of what I considered things to be going well I had a discussion with the project founder about my concerns with programming not moving as fast as we needed and was kicked from the project.
The cited reasons: Negativity towards ideas of others and insensitivity towards their personal lives.

This is what I learned:

1) Know why other members are there.
Don't get me wrong. I did ask them. Mostly they didn't like their day jobs and wanted to create a company around a number of website projects.
But in retrospect I see that I was maybe the only member of the project that wanted to finish the it as fast and well as possible.
This may seem like a weird statement but when I think about the difference in how we approached things it seems that they were more interested in using the project as a platform for daydreaming and as something to feel better about themselves than they were in actually finishing it and facing the reality of the final result.

2) Make sure that you have the same ideas about due process.
While they had done some contracting jobs before they had never designed a web page of this magnitude or complexity. Their idea of process was throwing ideas back and forth and letting the programmers figure out the details.
This is a very common way to think about the creative process and people that do that don't react kindly when you start asking "why?" and "how?" when they bounce ideas of you. They may not say it there and then but they may resent you for it.
Neither do they like it much when you recommend that the group stop brainstorming and start making plans and designs for the ideas you already have.

3) Know your responsibilities
I was asked to join the project largely on account of my experience in coordinating creative projects. This was made explicit to me.
Of course the project founder (and his friends) still wanted to retain control of the project. A number of times, especially towards the end, I recommended a course of action, on which everyone agreed but then I learned at the next meeting that the founders had gotten a "better" idea and people had started going in this direction instead. Usually this was a new idea that had nothing to do with the plans we had drawn up so far.

4) Don't hang on in a project you know is wrong for you
After the first month or two I found myself wishing that the rest of the team had a temperament more like my own. That there would be less goofing around and more serious work done.
I thought I could take point drive us through it. But they didn't want to be driven.

This may sound like sour grapes on my behalf an to an extent maybe it is. I honestly do believe that this website will never see be profitable with the current team, if it even sees the light of day.
But regardless, this is what I learned; this is what I want to share.

If you always learn this much from being kicked out of a project I hope to be kicked from many more this year.

[Andrew Gubb]

Cool post! Thanks!

[PhoenixFlames]

No Frostwolf you just got AMOG'ed that's all.

By Dating site, I think you mean a PUA Project (Pick Up Artist- project) and it sounds like by making a simple suggestion, a self appointed Alpha Male leader didn't want to hear it and they thought by listening to someone else- they'd be playing second banana to you.

This is a typical PUA Project attitude and knowing a lot of MPUA's from the community, one thing they hate about visiting PUA lairs, Community Groups there always seems to be this one Narcy, wannabe Alpha Male who seems to want to be the centre of attention by being derogative towards others.

If you read The Game by Neil Strauss you'll know that it was just the blind leading the blind when they set up Project Hollywood.

I used to be a member of the PUA Community for 2 years but left, after all the Cultish, Narcissitic, Desperate, Needy and Creepy "Nice" Guys just left an unpleasent aftertaste in my mouth.

[BitterFlower]

Good post, but I would add "When in Rome..."

Don't get me wrong, I don't go along to get along, so that's probably why I got laid off at the end of last year. It's ok, I took my severance and concentrating my efforts on my own projects. I know that _I_ like my own rules, but if I want to stay (Big IF) on at another job/project, I do have to respect the rules/dynamics of the team.

For example, I'm working on my own thing, and a friend wanted me to get on a MLM with her. I researched it, and, I hate MLMs, but I told her if I could work it the way I wanted, I could make us both a nice supplemental income for the next year (by then my personal projects should have taken off). My terms were explicitly, no calls, or texts, or emails. I don't want to be bothered. Let me do my thing and collect my checks.

But no, the day after I signed those papers I got constant texts and emails. I "dialed in" to one "meeting" and they were full of it (like I thought), and it wasted my time. After 3 days (and numerous texts and emails, and her calling me a few times wondering why I didn't "dial in" after the first "meeting"), I told her I was done. I purposely picked a MLM that will refund you within 30 days as long as you didn't sign anyone up (and I didn't). So I quit and got my refund.

But, I know now, that stuff is not for me. Bleh. And it's not just PUA communities, most people want to be in charge (heck, I want to be "in charge" even it's only me). But you have to go with the dynamics of the group (even if you are in charge) or leave/get kicked out. But leaving/getting kicked out is not a bad thing if your general views didn't match up. Maybe you can find a project or work your own that matches with the views and timetables you are comfortable working with.

[billionairekid]

I'm really interested to hear more about your project and what you're doing specifically in the dating community. I didn't read that you specifically mentioned pua but if that is what you were working on, maybe we could discuss some ideas? I recently found myself in a similar situation with a friend of mine. I've studied pua for a while and I really don't like how it's being taught.

In my opinion, I think there has to be a better way to approach pick up. A lot of what I've found, in my opinion, circulates around the ideas of using techniques to "pull" women. I disagree with that though. If you're an attractive man I would think you would be able to "pick up" no matter where you are with situational material instead of having canned material or going out to specifically look for opportunities to pick up. That’s just my opinion.

I have to say that I'm also not really into the bar scene. I have a specific type of girl I'm interested in and I theorize that pick up, as it is, attracts a certain type of girl. The type of girl I'm not interested in. But of course, I speak from minimal experience which could be a problem. Maybe the image I hold in my head of my ideal girl doesn't exist in reality.

Anyway, I wanted to start a company but my partner was less than dedicated and it’s fallen apart. Since then, I’ve been working on a couple of other projects but I really want to help the community out. Or, I want to help men out. I think we’re raised with a projection of how dating “should” be but in reality it’s far different. Matter of fact, most the things I learned about dating are the polar opposite of how it is in reality. I’ve heard so many women talk about how boring men are and how sappy they are. They talk about how men dote on them constantly and basically try to pay for sex through gifts and dates. It breaks my heart.

Luckily I was a natural with women throughout my life. And I couldn’t imagine not being able to have a girlfriend if I wanted one.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFlames

No Frostwolf you just got AMOG'ed that's all.

By Dating site, I think you mean a PUA Project (Pick Up Artist- project) and it sounds like by making a simple suggestion, a self appointed Alpha Male leader didn't want to hear it and they thought by listening to someone else- they'd be playing second banana to you.

This is a typical PUA Project attitude and knowing a lot of MPUA's from the community, one thing they hate about visiting PUA lairs, Community Groups there always seems to be this one Narcy, wannabe Alpha Male who seems to want to be the centre of attention by being derogative towards others.

If you read The Game by Neil Strauss you'll know that it was just the blind leading the blind when they set up Project Hollywood.

I used to be a member of the PUA Community for 2 years but left, after all the Cultish, Narcissitic, Desperate, Needy and Creepy "Nice" Guys just left an unpleasent aftertaste in my mouth.

Lol.... I laugh at the "pick up" community.

Learning how to be more confident, or improve yourself so that you are more attractive is one thing. But learning heartless material about how to treat women like a chess game is another.

[Vibration]

Froztwolf:

I had a simular experience with a project, engineering a complex piece of medical equipment. I was the lowest educated person on the team. Initially the CEO of the company placed me in charge of software development, something the PhDs on the team seemed to resent.

Every time I started to produce some great progress, whatever I was working on was taken away and given to a PhD. This really started to annoy me. So I decided to show them something, and solved a very critical programming problem, one that I knew would be a big step forward for us.

The lead PhD and project manager was enraged. He discredited my work (when everyone including me knew better), and instructed another PhD engineer below him to find a way to get the work I had done away from me, all the programming source code and everything. The look in the Jr. PhD's eyes as he asked me to hand over everything I'd done to him, was quite revealing, of someone forced to do something he knew wasn't right. I'll never forget it.

From that time forward, anything and everything I did was rejected. I was eventually disassociated from the team in such a way that they believed, and hoped I would also believe, were faults of mine. I finally left the company, convinced I was never going to be allowed to contribute to the project. My replacement was, you guessed it, a PhD software guy.

That was my first experience with academic arrogance.

I learned a lot from that experience, about the balence of power in a project environment. And that project managers don't like it when they think you might accomplish something that could draw attention away from them. This proves one thing to me: highly educated people aren't any more mature than I, for all the money and time they spent on classes, something I never would have dreamed of before this experience.

[Froztwolf]

Originally Posted by Vibration

Froztwolf:

I had a simular experience with a project, engineering a complex piece of robotic medical equipment. I was the lowest educated person on the team. Initially the CEO of the company placed me in charge of software development, something the PhDs on the team seemed to resent.

Every time I started to produce some great progress, whatever I was working on was taken away and given to a PhD. This really started to annoy me. So I decided to show them something, and solved a very critical programming problem, one that I knew would be a big step forward for us.

The lead PhD and project manager was enraged. He discredited my work (when everyone including me knew better), and instructed another PhD engineer below him to find a way to get the work I had done away from me, all the programming source code and everything. The look in the Jr. PhD's eyes as he asked me to hand over everything I'd done to him, was quite revealing, of someone forced to do something he knew wasn't right. I'll never forget it.

From that time forward, anything and everything I did was rejected. I was eventually disassociated from the team in such a way that they believed, and hoped I would also believe, were faults of mine. I finally left the company, convinced I was never going to be allowed to contribute to the project. My replacement was, you guessed it, a PhD software guy.

That was my first experience with academic arrogance.

I learned a lot from that experience, about the balence of power in a project environment. And that project managers don't like it when they think you might accomplish something that could draw attention away from them. This proves one thing to me: highly educated people aren't any more mature than I, for all the money and time they spent on classes, something I never would have dreamed of before this experience.

Yeah the academic community is...eccentric at best.

Before reading the replies here I didn't even know what PUA meant and I still don't know what it means to be AMOG'ed so no, this had nothing to do with picking up chicks.

We were simply designing and implementing a dating website such as match.com, eharmony.com, speeddate.com etc.

[MariconesUnited]

You sound like a very motivated individual Frotzwolf. You should probably do your own project

[Froztwolf]

Thanks for the compliment but I lack the necessary programming skills to do a one-man website project like that.
My girlfriend if a front-end web developer but I always need someone on the back-end as well.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Curtis2011

Lol.... I laugh at the "pick up" community.

Learning how to be more confident, or improve yourself so that you are more attractive is one thing. But learning heartless material about how to treat women like a chess game is another.

PUA stuff makes me sick too.

By the way AMOG means "Alpha male of group". Used as a verb, it means "to prove that you have a bigger dick than someone else".

[rei]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Used as a verb, it means "to prove that you have a bigger dick than someone else".

or it means, "to prove that you feel the need to act like you have the biggest one, which means you probably don't." ^_^

Froztwolf, thanks for the post. it does sound like the people on that project wanted to mostly dream instead of implement. but if the temperaments clash that much, you probably would have disliked staying on long-term anyway. group dynamics can be pretty powerful, but at least you learned all that from your experience

[PhoenixFlames]

Originally Posted by Froztwolf

Before reading the replies here I didn't even know what PUA meant and I still don't know what it means to be AMOG'ed so no, this had nothing to do with picking up chicks.

Froztwolf do I have a to post a link to one of your posts on a PUA Forum

I saw the exact same Cartoon Avatar AND Username whilst scanning a PUA Forum* (I sometimes read them just for a laugh at the ineptness) which was being used before you joined Steve Pavlina.
If you don't want to be associated get rid of the PUA Cartoon* (*yes thats a PUA Avatar alright) and change your whole online identity.

Most PUAs call themselves "Dating Coaches" as PUA attracts a bad press. And the other give away is calling a Dating Project a Dating "Project".

[Froztwolf]

PhoenixFlames, I sent you a PM to get to the bottom of where you saw this identity before. Never seen anyone else use my nick.

As to whether I got AMOG'ed, I guess I did. The founder considered himself the top dog in the group and wanted to keep absolute control, making him unable to delegate or trust plans that weren't his.
This extends to the point where he intends to sit with the programmers while they are working.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Froztwolf

PhoenixFlames, I sent you a PM to get to the bottom of where you saw this identity before. Never seen anyone else use my nick.

As to whether I got AMOG'ed, I guess I did. The founder considered himself the top dog in the group and wanted to keep absolute control, making him unable to delegate or trust plans that weren't his.
This extends to the point where he intends to sit with the programmers while they are working.

But counter to popular (?) belief, getting AMOG'd is not a bad thing. Anyone dumb enough to still function like a wolf in a pack trying to get all the wolf b*tches he can deserves all the b*tches he can handle. Us human beings will enjoy being with other human beings and connecting with the heart and spirit as well as genitals.

Andrew