James Arthur Ray's event leads to deaths

[Antarananda]

A James Arthur Ray led even, Spiritual Warrior, led to two deaths and 19 people being injured after 2 hours in a sweat lodge.

James Arthur Ray’s Spiritual Warrior Event Kills 2, Injures 19 in Sweat Lodge Fiasco | Beyond Growth


If this is not a warning to people to choose their "Gurus" with care, I don't know what else is. People like Tony Robbins and James Ray venture often into dangerous territory, with bravado and hubris, and pretense of being experts in areas they should have no business dabbling in (for example health and nutrition, mental health). I see all kinds of misguided advice especially related to fasting, detoxes, raw foods... you name it, being posted all the time, including here, and including by Steve himself. Caveat emptor.

[Note: I don't have an axe to grind, but have spent considerable time in real spiritual circles, including as a monk in training. I could easily set myself up as a P. dev or "spiritual" Guru / expert, but choose not to because I recognize that taking up students is a tremendous responsibility. If the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch. There's a reason in all spiritual traditions - Indian, Zen, you name it, a disciple was expected to go through 10-20 years of rigorous training and had to be formally recognized to be fit to teach. ]

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

A James Arthur Ray led even, Spiritual Warrior, led to two deaths and 19 people being injured after 2 hours in a sweat lodge.

James Arthur Ray’s Spiritual Warrior Event Kills 2, Injures 19 in Sweat Lodge Fiasco | Beyond Growth


If this is not a warning to people to choose their "Gurus" with care, I don't know what else is. People like Tony Robbins and James Ray venture often into dangerous territory, with bravado and hubris, and pretense of being experts in areas they should have no business dabbling in (for example health and nutrition, mental health). I see all kinds of misguided advice especially related to fasting, detoxes, raw foods... you name it, being posted all the time, including here, and including by Steve himself. Caveat emptor.

[Note: I don't have an axe to grind, but have spent considerable time in real spiritual circles, including as a monk in training. I could easily set myself up as a P. dev or "spiritual" Guru / expert, but choose not to because I recognize that taking up students is a tremendous responsibility. If the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch. There's a reason in all spiritual traditions - Indian, Zen, you name it, a disciple was expected to go through 10-20 years of rigorous training and had to be formally recognized to be fit to teach. ]

Absolutely-- this is why people should always ask critical questions of what the "guru" says. On the other hand, often the guru wants the disciple to follow his/her path unquestioned, since questions will lead to dilution of intentions--which leads to a closed system with no critical discourse. Critical discourse is a much needed facet of personal development which is neglected and cast away too often.

[blossom]

It's a good reminder to us all...thanks.

[Michelle]

I am sure Ray did not mean for this to happen. But it did.

Let this be a reminder of the importance of taking personal responsibility at all times and in each situation we put ourselves.

[Aleksander Krstic]

What exactly happened?

[Michelle]

From the AP just a few minutes ago: The Associated Press: Authorities seek cause of Ariz. sweat lodge deaths

[JustinPopovic]

Wow. Such an unfortunate event. It is too bad because I'm sure the exercise was wwell intentioned.

Definitely a good reminder to use common sesne and good judgement when testing your personal limitations in any self development environment

[Antarananda]

Good intentions alone are not enough. So many teachers take ancient spiritual traditions / wisdom practices out of context, and package them and sell them to their followers with unfortunate consequences.

I recently heard a very nice talk by a Buddhist teacher, Diana Winston, where she spoke of how when Buddhism spread from India to the rest of the world, it acquired the cultural flavor of the lands where it migrated: in China it took on flavor of Confucianism, in Japan it evolved into Zen, and in America it took on the flavor of capitalism; so now we have Buddha alarm clocks, and expensive thousand dollar meditation cushions and so on.

I'm sure Ray has all participants sign carefully drafted legal waivers, and that might protect him from legal action, but that still doesn't absolve him from the Karmic responsibility of human death, as a teacher who led his students into harm's way.

Let all teachers and self-appointed Gurus know one thing: as a purported spiritual Master (you might label yourself differently: a more conscious person helping others "grow" etc etc, but it's still the same), you are responsible for the Karmic fate of your student. If you have not become fully established in enlightenment (Nirvana, Christ Consciousness, Moksha), and as a result free from the law of Karmic bondage, any deleterious effects experienced by your students as a result of your teachings, will come back to bite you in the backside, either in this lifetime, or in future lifetimes. It's playing with fire.

I could probably dedicate an entire blog post to this, there are many subtle aspects to the teacher-student relationship.

[Michelle]

None of us were there, and we do not know what the circumstances were surrounding the deaths. There is an ongoing investigation and until the results are released everything is speculation.

It is feasible there was something faulty with the facility. It is possible members disregarded Ray's instructions to some degree. It is possible Ray is indeed at fault. Or a combination of the above may also prove to be true.

Please be cautious in throwing assumptions, judgments and blame around based upon a few lines written in the news.

[Antarananda]

I'm not being too judgmental. He was present inside the lodge with the participants according to reports. Did you read his deleted tweets where he (almost prophetically) spoke about need to "die" first in order to transform? Die metaphorically, for sure, but it became reality, sadly. The human body is not meant to be pushed beyond its physiological limits. And I say that as a western-trained medical doctor who has transitioned to holistic methods.

I also read the comments in the news site piece by a Native American who facilitates such retreats, and how they are conducted responsibly, what materials are used etc, and apparently those guidelines were not followed in this instance. That was the basis for my comment that ancient traditions are being half understood and implemented.

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

Good intentions alone are not enough.

I'm glad to hear someone say that. "The road to hell is paved on good intentions." For an ideal to work you have to be able to apply it, and you have to understand and accept reality to create such an ideal. This is why I have no respect for those ignore truth (and common sense) in pursuit of their chosen end.

Pushing boundaries is beneficial to growth. Indeed, it's necessary. Warrior traditions have a lot to offer in that regard. But warrior traditions also relate to the gradual conditioning of the body and mind. Their originators were acutely aware of human limitations. That's how they could go beyond them, or triumph in spite of them.

It may ultimately be true that there are no limitations, but I think someone who wants to walk on water would be served by first learning how to swim. And one should be thankful paradigms are not broken so easily-even if the impossible is closest to the truth, reality wouldn't be stable if our perception caused an instant shift. This is why acceptance yields power and resistance does not.

It looks like James had this coming to him. May he suffer and be refined.

[MidasGirl]

There's always risk people are going to die doing something, anything. Know what the number 1 cause of death is? Answer: Living.

I think people should take responsibility when they attend these types of events and be sure they can take it physically, emotionally and mentally. I think the "guru" has responsibility to disclose all possible risks (emotionally, physically and mentally and even financially) prior to the event, but participants should probably get a release from their own doctors. Blaming the "guru" is paralyzing the process of experiencing life for the rest of people who are up to it.

Now, my only question, who the hell in their sane mind pays $9K to attend an event like this?

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Antarananda

Did you read his deleted tweets where he (almost prophetically) spoke about need to "die" first in order to transform? Die metaphorically, for sure, but it became reality, sadly.

.

I don't mean to make light of this, but it's hard not to see an irony in it, in that James Ray is very big on LOA. To me, it's a warning that when you've become very good with your I-M, be careful what metaphors you choose. Who knows? Maybe the universe might simply just grant your wish, since it really is all about the energy behind the intention.

[alexb5784]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Please be cautious in throwing assumptions, judgments and blame around based upon a few lines written in the news.

I agree with Michelle. We don't know what happened, though it is unfortunate that people were injured and died. Though I have to say, someone must be held responsible for what happened. If it had been one of my family members that died or were injured, I would be demanding answers ASAP.

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I think people should take responsibility when they attend these types of events and be sure they can take it physically, emotionally and mentally. I think the "guru" has responsibility to disclose all possible risks (emotionally, physically and mentally and even financially) prior to the event, but participants should probably get a release from their own doctors. Blaming the "guru" is paralyzing the process of experiencing life for the rest of people who are up to it.

I agree that if all possible risks were divulged and the attendees agreed to it, anything that happened to them is their responsibility. Indeed, it is their responsibility for not leaving the sweat room when they surely felt ill at ease.

However, James Ray could have had medical personnel on hand. Even assuming he divulged all the risks beforehand, it would have been a smart precaution. At 9k a ticket, he certainly could have afforded it.

Responsibility where responsibility is due, to both the dead and the man who led them to their graves. Neither party is innocent. It is not judgment, merely fact.

[MidasGirl]

I read somewhere that he did have a nurse on site. But who knows for sure... I think though that someone is going to get nailed with criminal charges, and my guess is it will be him. Sad on all sides involved

[kniyogi]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I think people should take responsibility when they attend these types of events and be sure they can take it physically, emotionally and mentally. I think the "guru" has responsibility to disclose all possible risks (emotionally, physically and mentally and even financially) prior to the event, but participants should probably get a release from their own doctors. Blaming the "guru" is paralyzing the process of experiencing life for the rest of people who are up to it.

There is no equivalence of responsibility here-- the people assembled in the sweat lodge were following the "guru's" instructions-- you can wish that the people had been more conscious of their own actions; but the *reality* is that in such group situations, there is enormous psychological peer pressure which can override warning signals. With great power comes great responsibility--the guru is in a position of greater psychological power; hence he/she has to accept *more* responsibility. Making the dead responsible is making the guru unaccountable to his/her actions.

[Michelle]

Woah, people. We still do not know what happened.

Labelling someone as guilty before any actual guilt has been established is not acceptable.

There is an undercurrent of anger and blame circulating in this thread.

It is up to no one person here to cast guilt, blame or judgment upon another individual. There is a judicial system in the United States which the collective has appointed to take the role.

And may I remind each and every one of you that a situation which can be divided clearly into black and white, right and wrong is rare.

Also, what happened to treating people as though you would want to be treated? If any one of us is ever in the unfortunate position to have accidentally taken another human being's life, I daresay we would all be praying for the mercy and goodwill of those around us. Casting blame helps no one.

And in the spirit of the LOA:

There are no victims, only co-creators.

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I read somewhere that he did have a nurse on site. But who knows for sure... I think though that someone is going to get nailed with criminal charges, and my guess is it will be him. Sad on all sides involved

If he had medical staff on hand, that's a different story. Perhaps it does not clear him of blame but it certainly makes things far less severe.

And Michelle, in a situation like this, I'd say it's prudent to consider oneself guilty until proven innocent. If a life were taken by my actions, through no fault of my own, I'd understand that it would incite an emotional reaction and that people would be calling for my head. No matter how I treat people or how I'd like to be treated, I'm not ensured to be treated that way and I would need to form a strategy with that in mind.

I think James has already made a mistake in deleting his tweets and some of the text on his website since this has gone down. For one, those things are immortal on the internet. Somebody has them archived, and indeed it's come up on the website the original poster linked to. Second, it makes him look like a coward. It's far easier for people to bring the hammer down on him if he won't stand by what he's said. This could have been mitigated, at least to an extent, had he posted after the fact, "it would be tasteless to keep it up after those people died" but as far as I know he hasn't.

Myself, I'm not calling for his head, I just want responsibility where responsibility is due. That applies to everything in life. My wish that he suffer is not a curse, but an acknowledgment that it's often when the road is hardest to walk that someone grows the most. This is the perfect time for him to demonstrate what he teaches. If he doesn't, he will prove himself a sham and place another blight on the personal development community. Either way he will be changed.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Michelle

There is an undercurrent of anger and blame circulating in this thread.

IIf any one of us is ever in the unfortunate position to have accidentally taken another human being's life, I daresay we would all be praying for the mercy and goodwill of those around us. Casting blame helps no one.

And in the spirit of the LOA:

There are no victims, only co-creators.

Agreed. Nobody knows what happened for a fact. And also, people should note this isn't the first time he'd conducted this whole thing........and I have to agree with Michelle, accidental deaths can happen on anyone's watch (fathers forgetting babies in cars, backing up into your neighbor's toddler etc). For me, I'm sending James Ray and also the affected lots of positive vibes.

[RealGeorge]

Family Woman who died in 'sweat lodge' was in top shape

I don't think there's any way James Arthur Ray holds no responsibility. He took these people under as his students, for $9000 no less, in an agreement to improve their lives. At the very least he should have looked out for their health.

[heartoheart]

Mastering these (quite esoteric) practices required me to think and act more differently than I've ever had to before. At first it was quite grueling, but the results...well...all I can say is, "Wow!" "Arthur RAY advertising"
WOW indeed
I have participated in more than a hundred sweat lodges with native american that have been doing it for generations ....
Its never more than 4 rounds of 15 minutes each and then the door is open
for fresh air .....and a maximum of 15 participants
To put 65 peoples in a sweat lodge build with blanket and plastic sheets or 2 hours .....madness ..speculation of Arthur
Poor people paying $10,000 to go die suffocated ....when they where thinking that they where to become a sort of superman or superwoman .........So sad
65 people paying $10,000 thats how much money can be done
guiding people to higher conciousnes $6 millions plus for one week .

When the Secret came out ...Arthur Ray was one main propagandist
He was on Oprah ...Larry King ...and many more shows
Naturally the common man and woman put their trust in him
Actually as a hypnotherapist I have read reseach that show that about 20% of the population are easy to convine ...natural hypnosis subjects

This is the first big shock to the probagation of the so called Law of ATTRACTION ......What Arthur must think he as attracted to him now ?
In a chapter of his last book he praise the hight value of his car and how expensive it is to even get a tune up for his car .

Using spirituality to get millions to buy and write about your toys
is far away from the ideals of the Budha

I hope the legal waivers that participant probably sign will not protect Arthur Ray to face the LAW OF ARIZONA

[daj]

The law of attraction works!
Looks like James got blinded by his ego, and doesn't want to acknowledge how he attracted the events to take place. He even went as far as deleting the tweets below, that sound as if he knew a "sacrifice" was going to take place. Thoughts?