please advice - motivating others to get out of their pain

[TheFlyingMan]

Hey guys,

I have a couple of friends who are really miserable with their lives. One is in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend, another is stuck in a job that she hates and complains about everyday, but refuses to find the courage to switch jobs - i've been there before, and I guess it's the fear of change - even though its painful to be there, the fear of change makes change even more painful.

How would you motivate these people to change? I've talked to them for months, used logic, used emotion, I don't know what to do. It's really painful to see them so miserable. I used to be like that before I started PD and made some major changes in my life. How do I motivate them, or is there nothing I can do?

How I got on PD, was just too much pain - and suddenly I decided to do something about it. A little ball started rolling and soon gathered momentum. What about them? They are miserable but not to the point where I was (nearly gave up on life).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[JHL]

Its always so difficult to watch people you care about going through struggle or pain. More so when the "right" course of action is so obvious yet they just don't see it, or for some reason cant bring themselves to choose it.

In my view, people generally embark on change when it becomes too painful to remain the way they are.

The thing is that unless people have learned and internalised the lessons they need to, they will simply repeat them and will have to suffer all over again. For this reason it is important that any intervention does not deny them these lessons - even if pain and suffering is the price that person pays for them.

Naturally, you want to share your new insights and learnings with them, but it sounds like they are not yet ready for them. My suggestion is, as the quote goes, be a well and not a fountai - i.e. be a resource available to them, for support and comfort etc, but do not try to change them. Respect their inherent potential to grow and make the right decisions when they are ready.

I did a PD course once which had a short counselling component to it, and one of the things the facilitators would always ask when one of us mentioned a similar situation to the one you describe above is: "Why do you feel need to rescue them?" It always used to irritate me because I thought "Isnt it obvious?? They need help!!" But the implication was - who are you REALLY trying to rescue? What are your REAL motivations? What feelings does their situation bring up for you?

Just something else to consider, I thought I would share those irritating questions with someone else!

[Nico Kempe]

Originally Posted by JHL

Just something else to consider, I thought I would share those irritating questions with someone else!

Heh, how kind of you .

I think most of us are or have been in such situations. I think you actually attract it or notice it more because of the changes that took place in yourself.

I agree with JHL here, try to be a well, not a fountain (got to remember that one). People will often resist more to 'force' coming from outside, but if you remove that force, and invite them with calm serene friendly wellwillingness to help, then eventually, they'll visit the well, that place where they can rest, relax, and ask for advice when they're ready for it.

For a long time I've tried to actively help some close relatives. I gave a lot of advice, and tried to be as objective as possible, not to point a finger but to offer advice. I thought my way of working was the way to handle the situation, and other close relatives admired me for it, they told me they were amazed and proud at how I acted.
However, the methods I used were too active. In stead of gaining result, all it did was creating more resistance from the other side. It almost ruined my relationship with those relatives.
I was "the fountain". A fountain of wisdom is still a fountain, too active in some situations.

My advice is to give a good example instead. Begin with yourself. Remember the law of attraction? In being so emotionally involved with your friends's problems, you make it your own problem, and eventually that will likely just make it worse.
Instead, take away your own inner resistance. Be sure that you have a good life, be sure that you feel good, be more clear and just observe your feelings, just notice them. Once you are at peace, you'll emit that positive energy. You'll attract more of it. I've noticed that people feel much more comfortable around me when I'm feeling at peace myself. Also, they even pick up on the things I do and the passive advise I give. They didn't do that when I was actively trying to help them. So in "not actively helping" you'll help them better.

Be the well.


Oh I love that quote!

[dadeon]

Firstly, be aware of the power of your peer group. It's virtually impossible to stay clean if you play with dirty people all day long.

If you want to take them with you, you have to lead by example. Simply refuse to indulge in negativity.

I think that a bit of creativity can go along way. People are usually miserable because they don't see any alternatives. They fail to see past their current circumstances and maybe you can help them see things in a different light.

Also, people tend to indulge in negativity as a way of getting attention and being 'significant'. You often see this with people who are always 'sick' and get a lot of attention when they are sick, so subconsciously they learn that their sickness will get them more attention.

Give yr friends positive reasons to feel significant and don't let their problems be the reason for their significance.

[빈센트]

Buy them your favorite PD book.

If you don't have any in particular, "The Power of the Subconscious", is a pretty easy and motivating read. It offers some easy techniques that don't require much effort.

Then maybe pose a challenge for both of them. Tell them to make a list of things they would like to improve in their lives, tell them to pick one, and take a 30-day trial. You have to be in it too. If it's someone you all want, they're more likely to participate. Like say you all plan to go to the gym x times a week. Be there for them. Make it a group activity. Their success is your success. Put it that way. Make it a point that noone gets left behind.

If things go forward, KEEP going forward. Some people make progress and then STOP! And then they're at step number one again. Keep going forward. Keep churning out ideas on how to improve.

[TheFlyingMan]

Thank you guys...I agree I'll sit back and let them learn their lesson. They appreciate my sentiments but they just don't care about their own happiness. So definitely save myself and then set the example for them.

[bylto]

The thing about your friends is that they have identified themselves with that job or that guy.

They feel these aspects of their life are all they are worthy of (whether they are consciously aware of it or not). Change will only happen when they know that they desrve better, much better. There are books that train you to believe you are deserving abundance financially. (which I believe to be true) Once this is accepted by you as true you will go out and make whatever level of wealth you feel you are worthy of, you attract it.

Imagine someone cut your paycheck in half, what would you do? Ofcourse, you would leave and find another job that paid a similar wage. This is because this is the temperature that your financial thermostat is set to. You wouldn't tolerate less. The point is, until your friends truly feel worth more, they won't attract any 'more'. These beliefs are held subconsciously and they need to be changed there.

So, can you do this for them? No, but I liked this quote from dadeon above

If you want to take them with you, you have to lead by example. Simply refuse to indulge in negativity

When you are around them, be the type of person you want them to be. You will be putting your vibes out and it should rub off. Giving a book can also be a good idea but you have to judge this carefully as someone might take offense, you know your friends better than I do. Hope this helps

Mark.

[TheFlyingMan]

Hey mate, thanks for the reply. Can you recommend a book that trains my mind for financial abundance? I'm not happy with my progress in that area.

[bylto]

Sure, when I get home I'll take a flick through my collection and recommend some to you.

[bylto]

Flyingman, The single best resource on this is "Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill, in my opinion

Also audio programs that offer suggestions to your subconscious while you relax are great, see here

You can get a free copy of 'The Science of Getting Rich' here as well. Enjoy!

Mark

[TheFlyingMan]

Cheers mate, much appreciated

[dadeon]

Absolutely agree with Think And Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill.

Also The Science Of Getting Rich by Wallace D. Wattles

Also Rich Dad, Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingMan

How do I motivate them, or is there nothing I can do?

When I read your post, I had the idea what the most effective method would be "change their world".

But that's all I got, at the moment. I need to think about it.

[ethereal]

Agree with many of the comments made here; check out this one audio clip of Dr. Hawkins speaking:

on a mother's suffering due to a drug addicted child;
the blessing of (allowing others/oneself) to hit bottom;
pray for the person,
surrender one's own will and (the life and care of) others health to higher wisdom/God;
stop trying to rescue others.
http://davidhawkins.info/media/ss2006_03_cd.mp3

I've been down the route you were on, but it led to a dead end. By recontextualizing life and the human experience, it all makes a lot more sense now.

Perhaps some more active suggestions are to expose them to high spiritual energy sources, i.e. 12 step groups and the like. Just by committing to exposing themselves to that "aura"/influence will be beneficial, even if they don't believe in it.

[taylor2]

my daughter married a guy on her 18th b.d. and all of a sudden she was in domestic violence for yrs. i was on call for like 7 yrs.to come and get her at 2 a.m. cause he was hitting her.when she was p.g.he grabbed her hair and smashed her face into the car window and kicked her back when he threw her down.i can not tell u all the stuff i did to be there for her-AS I WAS FOR MY MOTHER WHO WAS IN VIOLENCE IN HER MARRIAGE.My daughter being in this made me so mad.but i tried and tried.to call the domestic violence people and have them talk some sense in her.they talked with her and she handed me back the phone and they told me "she is not ready".so yrs of more crap.taking care of her kids cause she could not trust her hubby to take care of his own kids.and we found out we were right.he can not be trusted with those boys.so i called a minister and i wanted him to go see her and talk to them both(i asked my girls permission first).the last bad act he did was throw a brand new laptop at her and if it had hit her...she would of been dead.he left.he came back one day after this minister prayed with me over the phone and he never went to see her.i thought he was sort of lame...the prayer worked.the creepy hubby came over one day and gave her a new computer and the kids a x-box360-and left.he shows up to give them all food from costco and leaves.we could not get rid of him for yrs. he always had to flop at her house and they would argue every minute.the prayer from the preacher is what finally worked.all my yrs of trouble s of tyring to help her and her kids and all i did....a prayer from a godly man did it.so good luck.it is soooo draining to tend to someone who is not ready yet. u have to find a way to preserve yourself.it is very hard.good luck.taylor2

[TheFlyingMan]

Thanks for that guys

[ethereal]

Thanks for sharing that, taylor2; it must have been hard remembering those experiences again to post it. That unconditional love you show for your family... it's heartwarming :')

Weird how spirituality works. Never was that religious or spiritual at all, but the more I see the more I believe. Or perhaps with subjective reality, the more I believe the more miracles I see

[Liara Covert]

These postings provoke thought. Over the years, "helplessness" has been the feeling that I initially had tough time understanding. We often develop a desire to rescue or supposedly help people, but we seldom realize that our ulterior motive is to impose our own version of a healthy and fulfilling life. I've known smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics and other individuals with self-defeating tendencies. In each case, I had to realize it wasn't my place to try to change these people. I could take the keys and drive rather than permit them to threaten their life and mine. But, they were in control of their bodies. They had to determine if change was a thing they wanted and figure it out for themselves. It's hard for me to watch someone hurt with no desire to change. I do my best to distance my own emotions and realize part of the reason I'm human is because of my ability to feel and empathize.

We are each on a journey. Part of mine has included learning how not to try to control or judge the destiny or people I know and strangers I care for. You can encourage people to come to you for support or encouragement. You can prompt them to ask questions to help them see consequences of their actions on other people. You can be firm and choose not to enable their self-destructive habits. Establish your own emotional, financial and other limits. Realize that you can lead a donkey to water but you can't make him drink.

[taylor2]

yes! to the post by Liara-i think this is correct. i have a schizophrenic son who is 35.I have to help him alot.me and hubby take about 20 phone calls a day.so does his sister.he tries us nuts with the phone.well-to me it is very hard to set standards for him...as in me saying "no".but we are all entitled to our own lifes journeys.so i try to let him alone and help where i can.i think it would of been the same for my daughter and her domestic violence thing...fine! if she wants to live with it.it hurts but she is a big gal and always determined to do what she wants...but when the little babydoll grandkids come on the scene-that becomes a different story.but i sure have learned exactly what you said-everyone has a lifes journey and it is there right and i agree.that was also my point-everything i did.get her hubby out of the county for a whole yr.and then she turned around and went to mexico to be with him with the grandson 9 months old. i begged her to please not take her baby to a poor county.well-it was a week into it and he was beating her and she was calling crying.we had to get the next door neighbor to talk to the mom in law cause they would not let us talk to our daughter.we had to cough up 1000$ for her and the baby to get back as soon as she could.the pain all of this crazy stuff inflicts on others is astounding.me and hubby for yrs and yrs were in upheavel.never any peace. now he will not let any grown kid come home to live with us.this little place we have is our safe haven.that is our protection point.now we are going thru this daughter and gambeling. she spent the kids xmas money and then wanted me to babysit the grandkids everyday while she worked to make up for her gambeling.i already babysit like 50 hours a week free for her(like double shifts).so i refused.she was so angry at me. oh well-so i am not enabling her to continue in this.i have to unplug my phone sometimes...just to get the phone to stop ringing from my son.so i think u have to do things to protect yourself and i think u have to put it in gods hands and also have a "live and let live additute and this is where these stuck persons are right now".if i talked crap against my daughters hubby-she would defend him.so-agh...i just don't care anymore.i do care about my little grandkids.it is very hard to know where to help. when my daughter would talk about hubby doing this bad thing and that.my hubby was tired of it all and he would tell her"well-u must like it"...just to get it back in her court.to do soemthing about her situation.taylor2

[Lauxa]

I've been listening to Wayne Dyer and he tells the story of some students with special equipment to be able to see inside an egg. And before hatching the little chicks have to struggle so so hard to crack the shell of that egg, so sometimes the students would take pity on them and make a little crack in the shell to help them out. But whenever they did, the chick always died. So in some way the struggle is necessary for the chick to gain the chick to survive outside of the egg.

I have a tendency to want to meddle and help people. I have one friend who is always on the verge of financial collapse and I have loaned and given him money many times, and it has been 7 years and he is no closer to escaping this situation. Next time I will try to remind myself of those chicks. Maybe people have to find the inner strength to escape their own difficulties and by helping them we are just dooming them to repeat the cycle.

[ethereal]

Found some great quotes by Dr. Hawkins; recontextualizes the whole "helping" other people thing

[In answer to someone asking about her alcoholic sister and wondering how to best care for her.] You surrender it to God and let go of wanting to control it. Trying to intervene keeps someone in pain and robs them of karmic merit. If you intervene, you’re interfering with karmic merit. You’re robbing her of what she needs to know. She’s going to need to hit bottom, whether she knows it or not. Intervening actually increases her suffering, because every time you try to help, you change where she has to go to hit bottom; now she has to go even lower. Do you love her enough to surrender her to God? If she says, “I hate you, you’re deserting me, I’m going to kill myself,” you say, “Well, that’s between you and God.” You need the conviction, the first step in Al Anon. Otherwise, you’re serving your own ego if you say, I’ve got to go in there and intervene.

[Someone asked, Where is the line between showing love and compassion for someone, and karmically interfering with someone’s life? How can you know when it’s one or the other?] It’s the sophistication of knowing when something is appropriate and when it’s inappropriate. You can use kinesiology to ask, in the name of the highest good, is intervening appropriate, yes or no? Sometimes hitting bottom is the source of someone’s salvation. Are you truly doing it for their sake?

[The person asked, So do you stop to help someone hurt on the roadside?] That just arises. You do that which comes from the level at which you are.

[Michael Chui]

In reply to ethereal's post,

There is an implicit assumption in Hawkins' words that the two lives are separate and distinct, unaffective of the other without "intervention". The notion that you can rob someone of an opportunity for a learning experience suggests, first of all, that you do not have your own learning experience to partake in from the very act of helping in the first place.

He thirdly assumes that the nature of God is that of a higher and greater being, holy and separate from we human beings. That, what it means to be "between you and God" is distinct from "between you and me".

Just acting as a counterpoint.

[Liara Covert]

I like the analogy offered by Laux and Ethereal's points. One difficult thing is to realize at what point is helping or offering advice enough or too much? If people ask you for help (& they're at a loss), or refuse to work with you where their situation is linked to your own, then what would you do??

Consider your partner or spouse has not shown due diligence with finances and you've trusted this person has done so. Where this irresponsibility or naivete highly-influences your own financial situation and stability, not exerting effort to help can be detrimental to you. You can choose to help your partner learn to organize future finances or cut your losses and leave.

Consider your partner or spouse had an affair, emptied your shared bank account and incurred debts without your knowledge. You may choose to have your partner learn how to get back on his feet, but what would you do if you were also on that sunken ship? Doing nothing wouldn't be good for you.

Consider you discover your business partner is involved in illicit dealings and he refuses to provide you with accurate financials. If you share liability, then not taking any steps to investigate thoroughly could come back to bite you. If you can't motivate a crooked associate to change, distancing yourself from that business might be the next best option. If the associate refuses to admit any wrong and refuses to communicate except to cause trouble, you may explore your legal options. You motivate yourself based on pros & cons.

I like Michael Chiu's point which reminds us that we each have opportunities to learn as we choose how to intervene in the lives of others. We have to delineate our limits, meaning determine what would be in our interest even if we can't control what other person thinks or does for himself.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

In reply to ethereal's post,

There is an implicit assumption in Hawkins' words that the two lives are separate and distinct, unaffective of the other without "intervention". The notion that you can rob someone of an opportunity for a learning experience suggests, first of all, that you do not have your own learning experience to partake in from the very act of helping in the first place.

I am in a similar position with taylor as I grew up with an abusive parent & have had abuse in/out of my life but anyways I can share from a personal standpoint my own experience & that may be helpful for you flyingman especially in regards to your experience with your friend.

MichaelChiu - great point & I liked your earlier posting. & yes there was a personal lesson for me in attempting to help the people who were "sinking ships"... my personal lesson was to no longer help at my own detriment. I was to firstly take myself off the sinking ship & escape to a definite safe zone. Then, if I was strong enough & able, I was to help if I still desired to do so. However, I am finding as I am growing stronger that I am no longer desiring to help as my fear I used to help out of has lessened so much that.. I realize these people must learn to save themselves.

So... I believe there are times we can be of help to others & not be in their sinking ships. However, there are boundaries which protect us from harm. We may be a mental health professional or a medical doctor. However, we are not their mother/father/sister/brother/friend... I believe in the medical field they protect from bias by not allowing relatives to treat their family members.

There are times to help & times to not help.

I found the questions JHL posted to be very dead-on. I also was like that until I read several books (codependency movement based) which hit the nail dead-on.

Why was I helping?
I was helping because I felt the only way to save myself (fear) was to save them. However all I was doing was draining all of my life energy towards the person with the addiction/affliction & not helping myself at all. All my energy sunk & I became depressed. Interesting hmm?

Back to my personal story:
I did not choose to escape from the abuse earlier due to my strong desire to help my parents with their problems. I continued speaking to them even when my sister stopped doing so because I thought idealistically that they were like me, capable of growth due to courage, & I realized realistically assessing the situation later that they were not capable. It wasn't until I aligned myself with a much higher purpose (following my life purpose) & realized helping these people on sinking ships was in the way of me fulfilling my purpose... I finally had enough strength to escape & ..I suppose in a way I achieved escape velocity from the negative situation.

In some ways I see people who cannot help themselves as black holes (sorry for the negative implication..) because they have a tendency to drag those around them into their problems. I wonder flyingman if your friend is in a similar situation as I was.

I read Erin Pavlina's posts earlier this week & they resonated with me in that she cited courage as what she needed to escape a situation. I agree heavily. Your friend needs courage.. but not your courage .. she needs to find her own personal courage & reason to escape the situation. Sorry if that means you cannot help her (because you cannot really...) but have faith in her strength & believe in her.

I will also add. There were several people surrounding me before that attempted repeatedly to "help" me. They all utilized pity (which is nothing more than veiled condenscension) to "help" me. They looked down on me as someone who so incapable of handling my own situation in life. Being around them was incredibly disempowering for me in terms of leaving the situation. I had to let them go before I did finally leave. I actually reflected on what their motivations were later ... & I realized that a lot of it in particular for one person B who was the most heavily involved was.. ego. B had a high amount of his own personal ego invested in being a helpful person...so much so that he was very negative when he "helped". B has an alcoholic friend who he has repeatedly "helped" for many years & whom he thinks of as a pitiable person who cannot take care of himself. B thinks he is positively motivated but now that I am out.. I can see that he is not. I hope this makes sense & I hope it helps whomever may read this post.

I just hope my experience may enlighten others who are on the same path I was on.

[Simmiah]

oh I wanted to add this:

If flyingman or anyone else would like to talk with me about what I posted feel free to PM me. That's all!

[radeldudel]

I always try to remember:

you can't change anybody but yourself.

Everyone needs to find the solution for his problems by himself, otherwise the problems will return (they will create the problems again).

A relative of mine had drug problems, through this he got finanzial problems, which brought him problems with a local mafia-like structure. He needed to be *really* deep in trouble before he could be helped. And he needed to find his own solution, his own way to disentangle from the mobsters. Only then we could help.

If you try to pull people, they will resist (I'm just in the mood of trying if pushing them deeper might help. )

Problem: it is not easy to see if they are ready - so, better leave them in the trouble a bit longer to make sure they learned the lesson this time. Learn about co-dependency so you can avoid it! Otherwise you trying to help will keep them in it even longer!

*THEY* need to learn a lesson, not you! You can't take the lesson from them, you can't learn it for them, you can't force them to learn it (there might be ways to trick someone into learning it by creating a problem they need to solve, though).

So don't try. And if they are in real trouble, and ruining their life, their health, well, it is their life, its their decision. They are not slaves.


I believe our life on earth is just an incarnation of a spirit, so if we die we go back into spirit-land and can decide to go back with another incarnation. So for me dying is not fatal, its just like rerolling a character in a fantasy game.
So wounds, sickness, dying, everything is just an experience to make, not something to evade.

Love you!
Sam

[Michael Chui]

Sam,

You're not wrong.

However, the word "help" is extraordinarily abstract and has absolutely no context nor does it suggest any specific actions. If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Sam,

You're not wrong.

However, the word "help" is extraordinarily abstract and has absolutely no context nor does it suggest any specific actions. If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

Well, since your question is so extraordinarily abstract and has absolutely no context, I can't make any specific recommendation.


Sorry, I don't deal with abstracisms (is that a word?) like this. I found it to be useless in the real world to try and make the worlds problems look like a math quiz that can have an universal solution for a universal problem.

The original poster wrote about trying to help people who are in miserable lifes, but who don't want to change anything. These, don't try to force help on them, don't try to make them 'see the light'. They are not ready, they need more experience in their life, let them get it by themself.

Love you,

[Michael Chui]

Do, or do not. There is no try.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Do, or do not. There is no try.

Sorry, my english is self-taught, I thought 'try' describes doing something, and observing the result?

Like, 'try this cookies', so you eat them and see if you like them. Or 'try to help someone' for 'help him and see if it changes anything'?

I'm sorry, I don't look at every word from every angle trying to eliminate every way for misunderstandings, usually I'm lucky and the meaning comes across without me checking every wording detail.

Love you!