please advice - motivating others to get out of their pain

[Michael Chui]

It's a 30-year-old reference, sorry if you didn't get it. I'll explain. The word 'try' inherently implies that you don't know whether or not it will actually succeed.

"I will try this" means something different from "I will do this". There is no implicit "Gee, I might fail. I don't know if I will succeed. I don't know what I'm doing." Instead, you simply do. You don't fail, because you are aware and knowledgeable already. You do it, and you do it right, because you can.

If you're busy trying, you spend half the time holding yourself back because you're uncertain.

[Angela]

Michael, you're using "try" in an entirely different way than radeldudel was. Yesterday I tried some chocolate chili almond butter and white chocolate blueberry peanut butter. I was experimenting and evaluating; success or failure wasn't part of this picture. I understood radeldudel to be talking about a similar process.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

I second ethereal on this subject & it seems Hawkins understood this phenomenon tremendously.

I had to learn to recontextualize the experience. It was probably for me one the big karmic lessons I came down to learn.

I realized that just because a person is suffering from their own self-destructive tendencies it is not "bad." The pain serves a higher purpose, one that me as a human being who is only able to see limitedly cannot see or understand. The pain is serving a higher purpose than I can see.

I realized that by alleviating their pain I was preventing them from learning their lessons & by alleviating their pain they shifted their addictive problems on to me. I became their addiction. I don't know if you've had personal experiences with this but it is incredibly damaging.

It was very painful for me to realize that ME...I... was causing further pain to those I cared dearly for by attempting to codependently "help" them. I truly helped them by letting go, calling on God, & having faith in them.

I re-connected with Love & through that I realized & recontextualized as Hawkins called it. I Loved them tremendously & realized simultaneously that I pitied them by not allowing them to discover the truth in their pain.

I realized that at times in my life when I was in enormous pain & it so happened I didn't have "help"... I learned. Actually my first temporary spiritual experience where I had a tremendous elevated peace/love/pain feeling was instigated directly by one of those experiences. I think back now & I realize that if someone had attempted to intervene... I would have never discovered what I did then. I would have never realized that there was something more than just this material world & lol, I wouldn't even be on this board sharing in the joy I share with the others who also see the world the way I do right now.

I am immensely grateful that those people around me weren't available that night to help me. I learned I could help myself. It was very amazing.

[Simmiah]

Oh! I wanted to add.

The greatest gift that they gave to me was myself.

I was given that night the first glimpse of my own personal power which is the greatest gift I can give to everyone else. As I grow more empowered I am more able to help everyone in this world more effectively. A cripple cannot help a cripple walk. A strong person can.

Oh yeah! & yes I do help when I can... like other situations for example I am right now a student nursing assistant. Everyday I help residents walk/feed/change/dress & live. This is different. I believe Steve wrote about it..where the cycle of abuse begins is when there is a person who is afraid & someone out of naive compassion steps in to help. They inadvertently begin a cycle where no one wins & everyone loses. So don't get me wrong! I help everyday with smiles & graciousness & joy.

However when I was abused I was none of that. ;p So.. you get the picture.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Angela

Michael, you're using "try" in an entirely different way than radeldudel was. Yesterday I tried some chocolate chili almond butter and white chocolate blueberry peanut butter. I was experimenting and evaluating; success or failure wasn't part of this picture. I understood radeldudel to be talking about a similar process.

So helping someone is like eating cake?

And just so we're clear: we still consider other people to be extensions of ourselves, right? Or is this a "God only helps those who help themselves" deal?

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

It's a 30-year-old reference, sorry if you didn't get it. I'll explain. The word 'try' inherently implies that you don't know whether or not it will actually succeed.

"I will try this" means something different from "I will do this". There is no implicit "Gee, I might fail. I don't know if I will succeed. I don't know what I'm doing." Instead, you simply do. You don't fail, because you are aware and knowledgeable already. You do it, and you do it right, because you can.

If you're busy trying, you spend half the time holding yourself back because you're uncertain.

Well, everyone does interpret words different from others, depending on the circumstances. I don't have this connection to 'try', probably because I have no english upbringing.

I always take it as a real miracle that people across the world, with *very* different backgrounds, very different languages, can communicate at all. And thats not all, we even can communicate about quite difficult topics, as long as all are willing to make compromises.

Someone once wrote 'even if a lion could speak, we would not understand him'.
I'm not so sure about this, I think we could understand him *if we want to*. But most people would not want to understand, would not want to try and think from the lions point of view. They would not like to try and think his way, because they think the lions way is not a good and healthy one. And they would end up discussion the meaning of words with the lion, because they think its the words fault.

So, please, have some consideration for those who have a whole different background, try (*GGG*) to understand us even though we use words in funny ways, ways you think that are not good and healthy.

Love you!
Sam

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

So helping someone is like eating cake?

Yes, it is! They can both be delicious treats! And sometimes it can be crumby.

That isn't my point, though. Trying helping someone can be like trying a piece of cake. It can be an experiment to see how it works for the tryer that doesn't necessarily involve success/failure.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Angela

Trying helping someone can be like trying a piece of cake. It can be an experiment to see how it works for the tryer that doesn't necessarily involve success/failure.

What an interesting perspective: when trying to help someone, it is irrelevant as to whether or not you actually help them? And so, when doing this deed, you are merely evaluating how it turns out, with no concern for the actual results? I do not think I would wish to ask you to help me.

Originally Posted by radeldude

I always take it as a real miracle that people across the world, with *very* different backgrounds, very different languages, can communicate at all.

I dislike taking things as miracles; it makes it difficult to subordinate them as tools.

Originally Posted by radeldude

I don't have this connection to 'try', probably because I have no english upbringing.

I've always been under the impression that Star Wars was a little bit too well-known for its own good. Nevertheless, the point stood on its own without direct reference.

What word would you use for what I described?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

What an interesting perspective: when trying to help someone, it is irrelevant as to whether or not you actually help them? And so, when doing this deed, you are merely evaluating how it turns out, with no concern for the actual results?

I said nothing of the sort -- that's a very reactive and innacurate interpretation of what I said. You are talking about Trying TO; I am (and I think radeldudel was) talking about something that didn't have an "in order to" attached to it -- like tasting. It does not mean that I'm cavalier or uncaring about the person I try helping. For example, you are in a wheelchair, struggling to go uphill. I ask you, "May I help?" Whatever your answer, whether I help you or don't, there is no "success" or "failure" involved for me. Or, you post a thread bemoaning your lack of success with women. I post back offering some suggestion I think it might be valuable for you to consider. Whatever you do with that -- take my suggestion, ignore it, scoff at it, whatever -- success and failure are not involved for me, regardless of the fact that I hope for you to be satisfied and fulfilled in your relationships with women.

[Michael Chui]

Alright, I think I understand better what you mean.

I think my "inaccurate interpretation" stems from my belief that no action is negligible (so the choice to ask or not to ask the man in the wheelchair affects both him and yourself). Thus, I don't see the concept of doing something without affecting something else. So, to me, it isn't a matter of whether or not effects happen, but rather whether or not you care about them.

[Mitalp]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingMan

Hey guys,

I have a couple of friends who are really miserable with their lives. One is in an abusive relationship with her boyfriend, another is stuck in a job that she hates and complains about everyday, but refuses to find the courage to switch jobs - i've been there before, and I guess it's the fear of change - even though its painful to be there, the fear of change makes change even more painful.

How would you motivate these people to change? I've talked to them for months, used logic, used emotion, I don't know what to do. It's really painful to see them so miserable. I used to be like that before I started PD and made some major changes in my life. How do I motivate them, or is there nothing I can do?

How I got on PD, was just too much pain - and suddenly I decided to do something about it. A little ball started rolling and soon gathered momentum. What about them? They are miserable but not to the point where I was (nearly gave up on life).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

What I would do is have a converstaion with each of these people in my subconscious mind first. Picture yourself having the conversation with them, hear their reactions, hear what your saying, make it very vivid. At the end of the conversation see them taking the action to make the change you want for them. Then relax with confidence that it is done. The conversation will come about on it's own. Do this visulization/converstion often.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I dislike taking things as miracles; it makes it difficult to subordinate them as tools.

Again you take some of my words, inspect them, the words, not the content of my message, and try to talk about those words, instead about content.
I don't see the words itself as miracle.
Aw, heck, why do I try to explain, you'll end up just pointing to single words in my explanation, asking for explanation or saying these meant something else for you.
It's like drawing a picture, but the other person does never see the picture, instead he just see the lines, talks only about straight lines, and bended lines, circles, when there is a picture in these lines, behind these lines.
Here I try to draw a picture using words, but you don't see my picture, you only see my words, and we end up talking about whole different things, you about words, I about a picture, both not able to understand each other.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I've always been under the impression that Star Wars was a little bit too well-known for its own good. Nevertheless, the point stood on its own without direct reference.

What word would you use for what I described?

Sorry, neither do I understand this Star Wars reference, nor do I really know for sure what word or description you are talking right now.

I don't think we two will get anywhere with our discussion, we use too different ways of communication. Better to stop such a pointless discussion.

Love you!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Alright, I think I understand better what you mean.

I think my "inaccurate interpretation" stems from my belief that no action is negligible (so the choice to ask or not to ask the man in the wheelchair affects both him and yourself). Thus, I don't see the concept of doing something without affecting something else. So, to me, it isn't a matter of whether or not effects happen, but rather whether or not you care about them.

Yeah. "helping someone" is a tricky thing. I want to make a positive difference in people's lives (in fact, I care about that!) and "help" is not always welcome or appropriate. The guy in the wheelchair, for instance. It's very possible that my offering to help him go uphill could be taken as insulting or demeaning, and that would not be making a positive difference in his life! Or, take the guy who insists on helping a woman carry her groceries and is shocked when the woman abruptly refuses his help. This is a common predator's tactic, and women should pick out their helper, if they need one -- usually another woman is best. Nevertheless, the guy's feelings are hurt -- he was only trying to help!

And in the case of this thread -- a person who is holding onto pain is not necessarily going to be "helped" if I attempt to change that. Unsolicited advice, I think, is more valuable to the adviser herself than to the advisee. The best way I can think of to make a difference is to be present, to continue my own path of positive growth and hopefully be inspiring, and to gladly and gratefully offer what I can when asked.

You know that old koan about picking up the snail and putting him by the side of the road -- how do you know you were helping him?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by radeldudel

I don't think we two will get anywhere with our discussion, we use too different ways of communication. Better to stop such a pointless discussion.

So much for your miracle.

But thank you for speaking for me. Since you clearly have a way to communicate beyond the words on the screen, you are correct: you speak in a language I have not learned. While you may have the ability to discern what a person says beyond what they have said, I do not and must rely on the broken crutches of plain speech: words on the screen.

Originally Posted by Angela

You know that old koan about picking up the snail and putting him by the side of the road -- how do you know you were helping him?

Then let's go back to my original question:

If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

You would answer "yes", in this case?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

You would answer "yes", in this case?

Of course. But aren't we talking about TheFlyingMan's question? How does he "help" his friend who is in an abusive relationship and his other friend who hates her job? It doesn't sound like they are looking for help from TFM, except they would like him to listen and empathize. This causes TFM pain, because he doesn't like to see his friends in pain. How does TFM help his friends loosen their hold on their pain? Again, I think by being present, setting an example by continuing his own growth (letting go of his own suffering in this matter might be a great start), and by making himself available to help when asked for help. (If the one pal is being battered, that might be an exception, but a professional should probably be called in for that one, rather than TFM trying to handle it on his own.)

Or were you talking about something else?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Angela

Or were you talking about something else?

I was responding to radeldude's absolute certainty of ignorance.

It is one thing to say that you don't know how to help, and another thing to say it is impossible to help. You can do something about the former.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Angela

And in the case of this thread -- a person who is holding onto pain is not necessarily going to be "helped" if I attempt to change that. Unsolicited advice, I think, is more valuable to the adviser herself than to the advisee. The best way I can think of to make a difference is to be present, to continue my own path of positive growth and hopefully be inspiring, and to gladly and gratefully offer what I can when asked.

I absolutely agree!

Love you!

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

So much for your miracle.

But thank you for speaking for me. Since you clearly have a way to communicate beyond the words on the screen, you are correct: you speak in a language I have not learned. While you may have the ability to discern what a person says beyond what they have said, I do not and must rely on the broken crutches of plain speech: words on the screen.

Every kind of communication has a lot more in them than words: how are the words being used, what words are combined in what fashion. Even spelling and punctuation are an important part of every message.
And of course, there is context. In this thread, for example, always is the context of the original posters question. Cultural context applies, too, like your star wars reference which might only be known in specific cultures.

Still, I'm not Erin, I don't read something beyond what you wrote. But what you wrote is more than just words.

Love you!
--
Silly silly me, first writing we should end this, then still writing explanations.
I beg pardon!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by radeldudel

Silly silly me, first writing we should end this, then still writing explanations.
I beg pardon!

Pardon is given. Which is why I never say, "I will stop responding," because I don't mean it. But I have this funny habit of saying what I mean and meaning what I say. I guess I'm just weird like that.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Then let's go back to my original question:

If you know how to help, and you know how to do it right, such that there aren't any negative effects (assuming that's possible), shouldn't you help?

You would answer "yes", in this case?

Depends on what perspective you are answering this question from. If you are thinking of yourself as a person with a finite life on this planet & you don't yet understand the bigger picture.. you think that you should help.

The "should" word for me indicates that it is an obligation. It is something I must do because.. in a way I believe that there isn't a higher reason for the pain or suffering another is going through. I now help through support though I work with many pained people everyday (pained through alzheimers & dementia & the general breakdown of old age).

My ego may tell me I must help in a particular way (say Angela's example of wheeling their wheelchair to a destination)..however many times I do this & they get angry because they wanted to left & I wheeled them right without asking.

Just because the outcome may look positive to us doesn't mean it was. There is a higher purpose I believe to all suffering yet I do not know what it is (heh.. I may know as I get more conscious).. & all things that occur.. occur because they occur. Yes you can help. Maybe it will alleviate some of the suffering.

But thinking you should or should not gets bogged down in a lot of guilt sometimes & I try to avoid that nowadays.

I recently came to an understanding that my ego/mind cannot possibly understand the larger consequences/implications of my actions hence I may think I must help but.. in reality I may not be helping. I hope this makes sense! I am attempting to explain this as best as I can.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Simmiah

The "should" word for me indicates that it is an obligation. It is something I must do because.. in a way I believe that there isn't a higher reason for the pain or suffering another is going through.

It is an obligation--to yourself. Consider that, when helping others, this is synonymous to helping yourself. What is the point of personal development? You are not as much as you could be, and you should empower yourself to become more than you currently are. Then enter the notion where you and they are the same.

Originally Posted by Simmiah

My ego may tell me I must help in a particular way

My ego is a unique perspective upon the world. It does not command, but rather provides a viewpoint. Thus, one should learn about others, identify with them, comprehend their viewpoints, so that you have many viewpoints to work with, consider, and decide which is best for the given situation.

Originally Posted by Simmiah

There is a higher purpose I believe to all suffering yet I do not know what it is

Suffering is simply another perspective. Some perspectives we may agree are almost certainly wrong (such as "all Blacks are criminals"), and we may further agree that they should be eliminated. Equally, the various types of suffering we may possibly agree are wrong and should be eliminated. Maybe.

Originally Posted by Simmiah

But thinking you should or should not gets bogged down in a lot of guilt sometimes & I try to avoid that nowadays.

You only feel guilty if you should do something and you don't do it, or if you shouldn't do something and you do it. Guilt does not result from believing in an obligation and fulfilling it.

Originally Posted by Simmiah

I recently came to an understanding that my ego/mind cannot possibly understand the larger consequences/implications of my actions hence I may think I must help but.. in reality I may not be helping.

True, you may very well not be helping. But then again, maybe you are helping. How are you to know? No matter what you choose, there will be consequences. Push them left? Right? Not at all? Into a wall? Out a window? Every action, even those where you do nothing, has a consequence. There is no vacuum, no isolation of effect: only reality, and the ripples you make upon its fabric by existing.

But my question begins with the assumption that "cannot possibly understand" is an incorrect statement. It assumes that you not only can understand, but already do understand.

If you cannot possibly understand the big picture, the larger consequences of your actions, then existence is already futile. Walking down the street tomorrow could cause a world war. How can you be so sure it won't? But failing to walk down the street may instead cause a world war. If you can understand, then you may acquire knowledge, and knowledge is the power to decide which consequences you wish to permit.