an ideal vision of the world

[rei]

i, for one, have a deeply seated need to contribute to humanity and this planet. not for kudos and not really even for appreciation, though it's nice to find out someone feels my contribution is valuable... i am just hard-wired i think, to contribute and to serve. it would be awesome if there were more people who felt a similar drive, but i can and do accept things as they are.

i'd like to share my vision of an ideal world. i hope you find it interesting or entertaining at least, if you don't have a similar ideal in mind. i say it's ideal, but i also believe and know it's actually possible. after i share my vision, i would be interested in your own as well as any comments you may have about the vision i am sharing.

i imagine and visualize a version of this reality experience of much greater harmony... of individuals acting based on 'we' instead of 'me'... a world where there is no use for money or materially valuable items to buy or sell - where everyone just gives their goods or services unconditionally or out of a pure form of generosity, and a world where everyone has a role based on his or her passion (in 3d terms, a dream job)...

a world where everyone has a sense of wholeness, inner and outer peace (perhaps because all have been healed - if this is a holographic reality, logically the root of disharmony on the outside is disharmony on the inside)... a world where we all show each other unconditional love... a world where we speak our truths and have released the patterns, conditioning and models that give rise to conflict... a world of contentment, happiness, and joy... a world where all feel connected intimately to their source of being... a world where all have every form of abundance that serves the collective harmony... a world of stability and balance... a world where we all feel deeply appreciated and appreciative...

if there is still a need to take in food, it is pure and natural and everyone has as much of it as they want, but no one eats to excess because every cause for that has disappeared... a world of incredible insight and awareness as the norm... a world of healed hearts... a world where power is always used responsibly to benefit the collective... a world of folks who are all so peaceful and reliable, and of such a high level of integrity, that all are self-governed... a world of great playfulness and uproarious laughter... a world of equals and loving justice... a world where all are respectful of and responsible about the physical environment... a world where everyone owns their emotions and is supported in expressing them regardless of gender... a world without disillusionment... a world of childlike wonder as well as maturity (the idea that innocence and maturity can exist simultaneously)... a world of creativity, collaboration and cooperation...

this is my vision, and i fully accept the potential for this idea of our existence on earth to become a reality in my lifetime. indeed, it is already happening. we cannot help but become closer to this type of world with every moment. and so it is. (yes this is also an intention. usually intentions are better when they are specific; i am being general on purpose because i want to leave space in there to be sure free will is honored. but i do believe and know free will can also be honored at the level of the heart or the core source of life within a human being.)

i am interested in hearing (reading) about your own ideal world - if anything is possible and there are no limits, what would your ideal world look like?

[blossom]

All of the above, as well as people knowing how to really listen to each other and hear what is being said...where communication is clear and misunderstandings are infrequent. Where each sex understands the other gender more and know how to communicate in a way that allows a safeness for expression.
Everyone has an abundance of energy so the need to take other peoples is no longer necessary. People own their own projections and will act as friends by informing the person projecting of their projections, in a gentle way, so that they can be aware of it when it happens, and responsable for it.
Parents treat their kids with more respect and as intelligent, wise beings, that THEY can actually learn from, with personalities of their own, instead of little mini-me's only there for the parent to live vicariously through. They also spend more time PLAYING with their kids and less time plonking them infront of the t.v.

I'll add more when it comes to me...thanks for this thread, it's really a great idea to do it with intention!

[rei]

thanks for sharing blossom! glad we're on a similar page with this idea

i like the one about energy, though i recently read a book about shamanic healing... the author made a valid point about that - humans can't actually use the energy of another human. they may try to take it but it won't really increase their own supply. that made a lot of sense to me, it would be cool if it was common knowledge.

i think we could even envision a world where the underlying reasons for that type of projection have been released completely... waddya think?

i like what you added about gender and parenting (mini-me's, lol!! funny but so true so much of the time)!
please do add more as it comes to you!

[Idealism]

Originally Posted by rei

i imagine and visualize a version of this reality experience of much greater harmony... of individuals acting based on 'we' instead of 'me'...

- You're trying to change laws of nature. This is why communism failed.

[blossom]

I see what rei stated as meaning that it would be good if people were more community oriented, that is, thinking about the effect their actions have on others and being less self-centred and narcisisstic! That isn't the reason communism fell at all...if you are talking about Stalins communism?
Even though communal living is how we are supposed to all operate, I think...in reality, there are always those who are not willing to co-operate, and the human ego does not like the idea of giving up it's sense of self-importance and power just so things can run more smoothly...it's such a greedy guts!

[ttt]

I like your visions Here is mine:
the whole world is interconnected, united and filled with opportunities
basic needs are met for everyone and what to do is a always up to the individual
life is such that nobody wants to waste time on conflicts, regrets or worries
societies and nations are formed around shared ideas and lifestyle
all personal relationships and social activities are a choice
people are able to connect on a higher level and care for others’ well-being

[rei]

Originally Posted by Idealism

- You're trying to change laws of nature. This is why communism failed.

i realize many people are self-serving, and there is polarity - not sure which of these natural laws you're referring to. the idea is that people recognize that we are all a collective organism on this planet, and through healing their wounds, people become ready to be and act based on unconditional love. i don't think this is against natural law at all. i think it is closer to natural law than the way things are. it is not communist, it is collectivist. and i mean "collectivist" in the original meaning of the word, which is: "collectivism in political terms affirmed the moral status of the collective, a freely formed and self-governing association, in contrast to the primacy of the individual or of the state."

[rei]

Originally Posted by ttt

I like your visions Here is mine:
the whole world is interconnected, united and filled with opportunities
basic needs are met for everyone and what to do is a always up to the individual
life is such that nobody wants to waste time on conflicts, regrets or worries
societies and nations are formed around shared ideas and lifestyle
all personal relationships and social activities are a choice
people are able to connect on a higher level and care for others’ well-being

this sounds great ttt! i like all of these.

[Idealism]

Originally Posted by rei

people become ready to be and act based on unconditional love. i don't think this is against natural law at all.

- Well, let me come rob your house. After that we'll shake hands and talk about peace and happiness. It's all that matters right?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Idealism

- Well, let me come rob your house. After that we'll shake hands and talk about peace and happiness. It's all that matters right?

is your chosen screen name supposed to be ironic?

the whole point is that the underlying motivations that prompt selfish and/or violent acts have all disappeared or been healed, through each and every layer of individual and collective consciousness, in and between every mental/emotional/physical/spiritual body of every creature. everyone lives from the heart and acts based on what serves the collective, not the individual. there are no victims or perpetrators.

this is my ideal vision for the world, you don't have to agree but i'm not sure i see the use of attacking it. you won't sway me away from my vision. i am not concerned about which political structure this seems to be, nor am i concerned with how rational it seems to you or anyone else. in my view it is far more rational than the way things are, and an ideal vision only really needs to be rational to the one who holds the vision... so what is the point, Idealism? if this ideal vision doesn't work for you, you can just move on ya know? it isn't really up for debate, if you want to debate the underlying ideas you can start a new thread, but as it is now i don't think you are remaining aligned with the intention of this thread.

even though you seem to want to deflate my passion, i still hope for you all the splendors of existence that you would readily accept with your free will. and perhaps a dose of some of the idealism your name suggests.

[Nayon]

Dear Rei, I think Idealism here is just abusing you with mindless cynicism. I think most readers will see right thru it and see the waste of time in trying to defend anything for him. He is obviously not ready to grasp the concept of love in its purest form, unconditional, or maybe he's just emotionnaly challenged. It says under his name he has been ''banned''. Wonder why?

I think your vision is one that will fulfill itself, even without Idealism's permission. In our state of evolution, a lots of people, not all, are waking up to our quantum realities of oneness and collectivity. The more we are, the more we will push this new reality in the collective consciousness. If you don't already know, the Venus project and Zeitgeist movement are pretty mouch in line with this vision. It is worth looking into it and spread around. When enough people will produce positive intention toward it, it will shift. Now, too many people put their intentions in destroying others, it is just too obvious in the world around us.

You might also want to check this out:
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/

[rei]

Originally Posted by Nayon

Dear Rei, I think Idealism here is just abusing you with mindless cynicism. I think most readers will see right thru it and see the waste of time in trying to defend anything for him. He is obviously not ready to grasp the concept of love in its purest form, unconditional, or maybe he's just emotionnaly challenged. It says under his name he has been ''banned''. Wonder why?

I think your vision is one that will fulfill itself, even without Idealism's permission. In our state of evolution, a lots of people, not all, are waking up to our quantum realities of oneness and collectivity. The more we are, the more we will push this new reality in the collective consciousness. If you don't already know, the Venus project and Zeitgeist movement are pretty mouch in line with this vision. It is worth looking into it and spread around. When enough people will produce positive intention toward it, it will shift. Now, too many people put their intentions in destroying others, it is just too obvious in the world around us.

You might also want to check this out:
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/

thanks Nayon. yes i didn't even noticed the banned status until you posted here. the last posts from Idealism were made on this thread. perhaps he was warned about acting in trollish ways, i dunno. but no point in dwelling on it, i am ruthless in my own idealism about the world. as you said, i don't need his permission. i can still energize the potential whether or not there is express permission (i have it on good authority that the collective can also agree to experience things through the heart/soul/core self/subconscious, so these ideas do not violate free will. if they did i would shift my focus).

i love to look at the relationship between quantum reality and spiritual or ethical possibilities. i admit i have only a casual, romanticized understanding of quantum physics, but it informs how i understand my existence and how it is totally within the realm of possibility to trigger significant changes.

i have seen the zeigeist movie. one thing i have noticed, is a tendency for some folks to use the ideas from the movie to dwell on paranoia. paranoia is a fear-filled business. we can use the notions from the movie to make informed decisions that are more aligned with our collective good. we can raise awareness without inciting a panic. there's more than one way to respond to anything, including the outrageous ideas offered in that film. i'll check out the link you provided, thanks for sharing it and for your support.

[Nayon]

Rei,

I'm just wondering what you mean by ''outrageous ideas''?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Nayon

Rei,

I'm just wondering what you mean by ''outrageous ideas''?

um, every major war has been started and acted on so those with more money than they need can get more. how they even financed both sides.

the idea that you aren't legally required to pay many taxes in the U.S. (the interview with the former IRS worker)

the Fed Reserve loans out all money at interest (um, usury is a major no-no innit?)

the idea that americans were once forced to give up all their real-value items (gold) which contributed in some way to the stock market crash (maybe i'm mixing that part up somehow).

i don't remember if this particular idea was from zeitgeist or another documentary, but there was also very convincing evidence that the 9/11 attacks were an inside job... which is just appalling.

and yet, i still have faith in the potential for humanity to have greater global harmony. peace. joy. unconditional love. wonderful things!

p.s. by outrageous, i did not mean too incredible to believe. what i meant was, the level of injustice presented in the film is enough to spark some passion.

[Nayon]

p.s. by outrageous, i did not mean too incredible to believe. what i meant was, the level of injustice presented in the film is enough to spark some passion.

You are right and maybe that spark is there for a reason. It is tru that the level of injustice presented is serious, but the question is: is it tru? The first step in solving a problem is identifying its cause. It is not a pleasent thing to learn that a bad roof is the reason behind that small drop that just landed on your nose, and most will be affraid to find out the truth about it. But some will prefer to fix the problem before it gets worse.

Society has closed its eyes on suffering around the world. We have accepted with way too much ease what politicians do in our name. People are not going to wake up from this influence unless they are ''shocked'' out of it, and I believe that what we learn about the integrity of our leaders will do just that. Since Ramses 2, leaders have used a parallel matrix of deception to keep people in line, a false reality constructed by education and spin doctors spreading lies in public places. Now they have fancyer tricks, but it comes down to the same. We wont achieve a world based on Love with a system based on selfish needs.

I recomend you see ''The century of self'' : The Century of the Self, Episode 1 - Happiness Machines - Sprword.com - Spread the Word
It is a 4 hours serie on how ''consent from the masses'' is obtained by social engeneering based on Freud's theories, for the benefit of government and corporations. And if you have the time, there is a good book on the study of political influence thru psychopatic leadership and its influence on people: Political Ponerology Home

Those are the leaky roofs of society and unless we fully grasp those realities, it will be hard to clean the house.

[rei]

see, this is where i don't always follow the typical cause and effect from these things. i already know about spin doctors and deception and corruption. it's appalling. knowing about it makes me far less susceptible to social control methods.

i totally respect your right to follow up with these things, as i respect everyone else's right to journey down the rabbit hole, as i have done before. but these days, i choose to focus on what i actually want to experience instead of getting too far into the conspiracy stuff. i have been there, done the research, etc. and there is a lot of crazy-but-plausible stuff out there. just, where i am at this point, i'd rather focus on intentions that give rise to greater harmony and joy for all beings. my belief system allows for things to change without too much effort looking at what's wrong (shifting of quantum realities, paradigm shift, etc., with no requirement for full awareness of the details of what happened in the former paradigm). it's quite esoteric, not sure i could even put it into words, but it's within the realm of possibility for me and my reality, it may sound silly or impossible to others but it is my truth. (i do think we can still be social activists though, one day and one person at a time, we change things with every choice. btw, Freud's theories are no longer accepted, haven't been since postmodernism started, so i am not sure about that particular premise. stranger things have happened.)

i do appreciate your effort to suggest additional resources, and i hope you can appreciate where i am coming from if i don't look into them. it's basically a 'not in my universe' thing. i looked through the looking glass, and now my focus is on co-creating an entirely different set of circumstances. and i do agree, for those who have no experience with the underlying motivations of these power struggle things, it can be valuable to find out about it. but once we find out about it, for me it is not appropriate to dwell there. hope that makes sense. if my focus is an increase of harmony and unconditional love, it doesn't make sense for me to give attention to those things. however, this is all done consciously. not out of fear or denial. out of knowing how much power i really have to affect my reality.

[Nayon]

but these days, i choose to focus on what i actually want to experience instead of getting too far into the conspiracy stuff.

I understand perfectly. We are all different and that is perfection. You are still doing something wonderfull projecting what you aspire for the human race and if more people would follow your example, the world would be a much better place. I, myself, have a strong need about knowing all I can learn from what we call reality and I am fine with it. I recognize it's not for everybody. Along the way I had reconciled this apparent evil with my beliefs in god and its perfect order but I admit this was not an easy task. Keep on your good intentions, you are a valuable asset to humanity.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Nayon

Along the way I had reconciled this apparent evil with my beliefs in god and its perfect order but I admit this was not an easy task. Keep on your good intentions, you are a valuable asset to humanity.

thank you, i think so too (i used to be very much the same way, digging deeper and deeper for intellectual understanding. for me, this became a source of imbalance, too much head and not enough heart expressed. so i have brought the heart back into a stronger expression. i am not implying you should do the same, only that i understand the drive to keep gathering information.)

i am wondering if you could explain a little about what you mean about reconciling the apparent evil with your beliefs in god. are you saying this is all part of God's plan in your view, or that if God allows those things to happen, that makes God apparently evil? i am confused, but i like to learn about how others see things, if you're willing to humor me.

and as long as you end with something about your ideal vision for the world, i am pretty sure this is kosher to do (to answer my question and still make your post applicable to the thread topic). if there's any doubt, don't do it though. i wouldn't want you to get banned based on my request. i haven't been on this forum long enough to know what is considered crossing the line for this guideline, but so far i have seen several folks address more than one (related) topic in a thread. anyhoo, starting to ramble. thanks for the kind words about sending out a positive intention for the world. i have every confidence of attracting it too

[Nayon]

i am wondering if you could explain a little about what you mean about reconciling the apparent evil with your beliefs in god. are you saying this is all part of God's plan in your view, or that if God allows those things to happen, that makes God apparently evil? i am confused, but i like to learn about how others see things, if you're willing to humor me.

Yes, I believe it is all in God's plan. Of course, there is no certainty in this life, and I think it is part of the plan too. What I have is just my best guess, according to what I've read.

I believe the earth is some kind of school, in which we come to learn about the duality of good and evil. In genesis, the story says that Adam and Eve felt for the tree of the ''knowledge of good and evil'' to become like God. I read yesterday that our goodness and its influence is better viewed with evil in the back drop. I know people don't like to think that god would bring us challenges, but think of it as an olympic training, it can be hard at times, but the final end is worth it. I believe to fully express free will, we have to have a certain understanding behind our choices. To practice good, we have to ''choose'' it over evil in order for it to be a ''choice''. If I would ask you to choose between an apple and a timple, is it still a free choice if you don't know what a timple is? Choosing the apple would be a choice made out of ignorance.

Now, looking back at the world, one would think that God is dead, but this is just one way to look at it. In court, there is this thing about ''reasonable doubt''. So let me bring here an hypothesis of how things could be. The world is a stage they say. Imagine it was prepared for a grand school play. Lets say that humans are biological machines equipped with a navigator program built to favor its survival, our instincts. Imagine that we come from a different dimension and we enter this school by incarnating in one of those units. Now think about others, teachers, who incarnate to play key roles and bring knowledge according to a certain schedule.

Now, I could say that Bush or Hitler were just angels very good at acting and playing psychopaths role, and you'd have no way to prove me wrong so it is just as good a theory than the one saying they were real evil beings. Now imagine that those dying from those criminals were units that no one incarnated, shooting them would not mean the same thing to God. I'm not advocating shooting people here, we, as humans, don't know which is which, and we are here to learn to behave. A good example of this concept would be the movies; ''The thirteenth floor'' and ''eXintenZ'' in which, quantum simulations act along side real humans, just like we would see on the hollow deck in Star Trek.

Now, if we contemplate this option, we would have to imagine that God would make this the best evil money can buy for the sake of this lesson, and I think that's what we have. But the ending destination is the world you're talking about, the perfect one, and the one we have now is there to show us what happens when we drift from God into selfishness, and I believe this is a lesson for us to ''choose'' good over ''evil'' for the rest of eternity, because we will have gone thru it. Roger Waters, Pink Floyd's bassist said in a ''Dark side of the moon'' documentary: ''Every man on his path to the light has to cross the valley of darkness'', and I believe we're in it to study it fully. Good and Evil 101.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Nayon

i am wondering if you could explain a little about what you mean about reconciling the apparent evil with your beliefs in god. are you saying this is all part of God's plan in your view, or that if God allows those things to happen, that makes God apparently evil? i am confused, but i like to learn about how others see things, if you're willing to humor me.

Yes, I believe it is all in God's plan. Of course, there is no certainty in this life, and I think it is part of the plan too. What I have is just my best guess, according to what I've read.

I believe the earth is some kind of school, in which we come to learn about the duality of good and evil. In genesis, the story says that Adam and Eve felt for the tree of the ''knowledge of good and evil'' to become like God. I read yesterday that our goodness and its influence is better viewed with evil in the back drop. I know people don't like to think that god would bring us challenges, but think of it as an olympic training, it can be hard at times, but the final end is worth it. I believe to fully express free will, we have to have a certain understanding behind our choices. To practice good, we have to ''choose'' it over evil in order for it to be a ''choice''. If I would ask you to choose between an apple and a timple, is it still a free choice if you don't know what a timple is? Choosing the apple would be a choice made out of ignorance.

Now, looking back at the world, one would think that God is dead, but this is just one way to look at it. In court, there is this thing about ''reasonable doubt''. So let me bring here an hypothesis of how things could be. The world is a stage they say. Imagine it was prepared for a grand school play. Lets say that humans are biological machines equipped with a navigator program built to favor its survival, our instincts. Imagine that we come from a different dimension and we enter this school by incarnating in one of those units. Now think about others, teachers, who incarnate to play key roles and bring knowledge according to a certain schedule.

Now, I could say that Bush or Hitler were just angels very good at acting and playing psychopaths role, and you'd have no way to prove me wrong so it is just as good a theory than the one saying they were real evil beings. Now imagine that those dying from those criminals were units that no one incarnated, shooting them would not mean the same thing to God. I'm not advocating shooting people here, we, as humans, don't know which is which, and we are here to learn to behave. A good example of this concept would be the movies; ''The thirteenth floor'' and ''eXintenZ'' in which, quantum simulations act along side real humans, just like we would see on the hollow deck in Star Trek.

Now, if we contemplate this option, we would have to imagine that God would make this the best evil money can buy for the sake of this lesson, and I think that's what we have. But the ending destination is the world you're talking about, the perfect one, and the one we have now is there to show us what happens when we drift from God into selfishness, and I believe this is a lesson for us to ''choose'' good over ''evil'' for the rest of eternity, because we will have gone thru it. Roger Waters, Pink Floyd's bassist said in a ''Dark side of the moon'' documentary: ''Every man on his path to the light has to cross the valley of darkness'', and I believe we're in it to study it fully. Good and Evil 101.

this is a dualistic perspective. good and evil are relative, and are two sides of the same thing. i think our goal is to transcend polarity thinking. (btw, i do not think Bush or Hitler or anyone else is evil. i believe there is greater and less conscious awareness, but no evil). i don't think the Source of all divinity tests humans. i think we may choose specific experiences to learn from before we incarnate, but that's our own soul's decision. not so much a mandate issued from 'above'. anyway, i asked you to elaborate and you did, so thank you.

the valley of darkness can also be lack of awareness, or it can be about working with one's shadow self. this is all a matter of personal understanding though, if your understanding works for you, that's really what matters.

oh... those lessons can also be related to karma. in my experience, karma is one of those things that plays out in our life experience whether we believe in it or not. but... i do see some truth in the issue of what reality shows us. it shows us particular options so we can decide if they work for us or not, and contrast is often needed for us to know whether a particular way of being serves our highest good. but i don't believe this comes from a higher authority. well, except in the sense that we are all reflections and pieces of a higher authority. rather than tests from an authority, i think these are lessons we chose. similar but not quite the same thing.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Idealism

- You're trying to change laws of nature. This is why communism failed.

Communism in USSR was more government capitalism with totalitarian control.
Amish have a system that is more similar to the ideal of communism.

[Andrew Gubb]

In response to the OP:

Sounds good but this lifetime? I bet we'll come along way in these next 50-100 years but even for me that seems unrealistic. People have a natural rate of growth, and I don't think the best conditions can make the majority of the people in this world jump to oneness. A very large segment of them are still at Nazi-consciousness or lower.

Said that I bet we'll see a quantum leap or two as the increasing number of awake people in the world starts changing the rules of the game.

[blossom]

VERY much looking forward to that one Andrew

[rei]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

In response to the OP:

Sounds good but this lifetime? I bet we'll come along way in these next 50-100 years but even for me that seems unrealistic. People have a natural rate of growth, and I don't think the best conditions can make the majority of the people in this world jump to oneness. A very large segment of them are still at Nazi-consciousness or lower.

Said that I bet we'll see a quantum leap or two as the increasing number of awake people in the world starts changing the rules of the game.

yes, quantum leap... mass awakening... activation of individual and collective heart centers... anything is possible!

[Gene]

Originally Posted by rei

yes, quantum leap... mass awakening... activation of individual and collective heart centers... anything is possible!

I would like that and hope it comes to pass sooner rather than later.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

In response to the OP:

Sounds good but this lifetime? I bet we'll come along way in these next 50-100 years but even for me that seems unrealistic.

Unrealistic belongs to the realm of fantasy. Realistic belongs to the world of science fiction. Where is the edge?

10 years ago, the current crisis would have been unthinkable.

Now that I think, rei could be right.
The biggest risk of changing the world is that it may not change.
So why not trying to change it?

[Andrew Gubb]

So why not trying to change it?

I am trying! Give me some credit here!

But the crisis unthinkable? I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I'd say it was pretty likely to occur... sooner or later. Our economy isn't sustainable as it is, everyone knows that

A spiritual revolution, now THAT would be news

[rei]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I am trying! Give me some credit here!

But the crisis unthinkable? I wouldn't go so far as to say that. I'd say it was pretty likely to occur... sooner or later. Our economy isn't sustainable as it is, everyone knows that

A spiritual revolution, now THAT would be news

newsflash: the spiritual revolution is already happening!
every moment it continues to unfold.
the mainstream news doesn't report on many optimistic things so you'll need to check in with your heart for confirmation... but it's already happening. massive shifts in consciousness... yummy

[blossom]

This is true. A spiritual army have been gathering in numbers for quite some time now...but you don't hear that on the news or at most peoples dinner tables or in most topics of discussion.

Most people are more concerned about who won the football for goodness sake!

[rei]

Originally Posted by blossom

This is true. A spiritual army have been gathering in numbers for quite some time now...but you don't hear that on the news or at most peoples dinner tables or in most topics of discussion.

Most people are more concerned about who won the football for goodness sake!

football is organized, socially sanctioned violence and competitiveness. neither seem very spiritual to me (though yes, i admit they have both been the glue for many religious-oriented events throughout history - and religion is not the same thing as spirituality).

so they can keep their sports while i meet with my fellow spiritual woowoo warrior peaceniks