Feminism: Outdated? Insult or praise?

[ar81]

Before replying, watch this video of Isabel Allende, famous south american writer speaking english and telling the horrors many women live nowadays.

Isabel Allende cuenta historias de pasión | Video on TED.com

What do we need to change this world?
It takes 18 minutes. But these are the most worthy 18 minutes in several years I have had.

Also, this video shows something about something that is neded in this planet.
YouTube - badly drawn boy- year of the rat

[aelle]

I will definitely check the video once I'm at home. But I feel that in a threas with this title, I need to link to this article: Feminist? Yes you are.

[Remiel]

What's your definition of feminist? Also what are the advantages you see to being a feminist / having feminism around?

[Cochonette]

Funny. I've a friend who's a women's and gender studies major and distinguishes between second and third wave feminism, so she is less likely to consider people feminist... they need to fall into one of these two categories and know what it is.

I don't think I really considered myself a feminist until I read Carol Adams' The Sexual Politics of Meat on the intersections between feminism and vegetarianism. I didn't really know anything about it before... now I still would hesitate to call myself a feminist just because I know so little about it and have little compulsion to study it in depth. I would be hard pressed to explain feminism to anyone. I could probably explain anti-oppression a little more easily.

[Remiel]

Well I have a vague idea what feminism is but how can I say something about feminism when I can hardly define it? Is there good in it? Sure, I for one will not say that there weren't some positive things done because of feminism. And yet, what has it cost women by buying into feminism?

[aelle]

My definition of feminism is quite close to that in the "Yes you are" article I just linked. For me, feminism is about aspiring to fair and equal treatment of all genders, both legally and through societal habits. I admit I am not well read on the topic, nor have I ever attended a gender study class. Yet I've never met another real life feminist who would belittle my reflexion or say I'm not a real feminist because of that.

As Cochonette pointed out, it is part of ending all oppressions to me - I am also against racism, classism, I am a vegan and my whole life is built around trans-national cooperation. I'm never too sure where one issue stops and another begins.

It has never cost me anything to identify as a feminist, nor to use the F word.
It has brought me fantastic opportunities for discussion, outreach, renewed humbleness, growth, reflexion, sharper insight on the world and overall awesomeness

[ar81]

The video gave me a real insight of what it means feminism, not in our countries, but in a global world...

[Holistic Star]

Interesting this was in the paper today:

Are You a Feminist?


I've considered myself a feminist since I was 14 and read a book called 'Out of the Dollshouse' and another called 'A women's history of the world'

Although my smart alec comment to the question, 'Are you a feminist?' was always 'Don't be silly, feminists think that they are only equal to men, and frankly I think that's aiming a bit low!'

I've stopped saying that now, as realise it is divisive and doesn't really reflect that fact that I want equality of opportunity for everyone.

[Brutha]

Isabel Allende cuenta historias de pasión | Video on TED.com

Why post the link with spanish subtitles?

[Remiel]

Hmmm so Feminism is about the equal treatment of all genders... but what does equal mean?

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Why post the link with spanish subtitles?

She is speaking english, but she speaks spanish as native language.
She is a famous writer in Latin America.

[Brutha]

She is speaking english, but she speaks spanish as native language.

I don't see why her having spanish as native language in any way suggest that you should link to spanish subtitles when you are talking to an English language audience and recommand a website that by default in English.

[Holistic Star]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Hmmm so Feminism is about the equal treatment of all genders... but what does equal mean?

For me it's more about equality of opportunity, particularly in education and jobs. That swings both ways btw. I don't like seeing men excluded from traditionally female jobs just because they are men.
It means paying comparable jobs the same wage, which isn't the case right now.

I also think paternity leave rights should be extended and shared with maternity leave, so that childcare isn't seen as the sole preserve of women. Likewise sole custody in the case of a divorce shouldn't automatically go to the woman.

[Remiel]

Hmmm ok. One thing that concerns me is, aren't men and women different?

[aelle]

In what respect do you think men and women are different?

I'm not talking about the physical differences between the sexes. Are there natural differences between the genders? Sure, we can witness some differences between men and women. For example, men score higher on maths tests than women. Also, men make more money than women. How could we ever tell if these facts come from a natural difference between the genders, or if they come from society imposed roles? We cannot, because there is no control group. Every single person is raised, interacts, evolves within gender roles. Every single person is immersed in a culture of gender binary.

Actually, the more we study this issue (by comparing cultures that have different gender roles for example), the more differences that were believed to be biological turn out to be a result of gender expectations. This is the case of the masculine edge in maths, for example.

So, in doubt, the only way to guarantee equal opportunity is to treat people as if gender were irrelevant.

[Remiel]

So even in matters of strength both genders are the same?

[aelle]

I have a feeling you've got "sex" and "gender" confused. That's okay, most of society does.

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't see why her having spanish as native language in any way suggest that you should link to spanish subtitles when you are talking to an English language audience and recommand a website that by default in English.

A friend send me the link, I just posted "as is".

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I don't see why her having spanish as native language in any way suggest that you should link to spanish subtitles when you are talking to an English language audience and recommand a website that by default in English.

The video is in english. This is really irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Remiel

So even in matters of strength both genders are the same?

No. If you pay close attention you'll find the answer to your question

Originally Posted by aelle

In what respect do you think men and women are different?

I'm not talking about the physical differences between the sexes. Are there natural differences between the genders? Sure, we can witness some differences between men and women. For example, men score higher on maths tests than women. Also, men make more money than women. How could we ever tell if these facts come from a natural difference between the genders, or if they come from society imposed roles? We cannot, because there is no control group. Every single person is raised, interacts, evolves within gender roles. Every single person is immersed in a culture of gender binary.

Actually, the more we study this issue (by comparing cultures that have different gender roles for example), the more differences that were believed to be biological turn out to be a result of gender expectations. This is the case of the masculine edge in maths, for example.

So, in doubt, the only way to guarantee equal opportunity is to treat people as if gender were irrelevant.

To build on that, I'll add that men are physically superior due to gender expectations. The man was traditionally the hunter in most cultures and evolution took care of the rest, so to speak. I do believe women have a better sense of intuition than men do also, generally speaking.

So we're acknowledging that each sex is different. Just like each "race" (scientifically speaking there is only one race- Homo Sapiens) is different. The idea behind feminism and most civil rights causes is that everyone deserves an equal opportunity, regardless of gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, religion. Just as everyone deserves to be treated with the same respect and dignity regardless of the aforementioned factors.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Hmmm ok. One thing that concerns me is, aren't men and women different?

Aren't you and I different?

[ar81]

Did you know I am "superior" than all of you, humans, in some aspects?
I can say more superior stupid jokes and stupid rants than any human on Earth, from time to time...
Geez that was a stupid joke... but it is not stupid in my alien planet.

[Martyn13]

As someone who has an old fashioned romantic view (in the broadest sense of the word), it seemed a good idea to comment on this thread.

As most sensible people are aware, and those who have engaged in self development, male and female energies are very different.
It is not by accident that they are called the 'opposite' sex - The two opposite energies reflect our duality.
It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

Originally Posted by aelle

In what respect do you think men and women are different?

I'm not talking about the physical differences between the sexes

Also, as those who have done self development are very aware, the physical body is a reflection of the soul, and not an entity on its own.
In other words, the very soul and essential makeup of the genders is opposite, and perfectly reflects in every detail of their respective bodies

Originally Posted by aelle

Actually, the more we study this issue (by comparing cultures that have different gender roles for example), the more differences that were believed to be biological turn out to be a result of gender expectations. This is the case of the masculine edge in maths, for example.

For those who hold such strong attachments it is easy to make sweeping statements of fact - It's such a vague and overiding claim - as if science could possibly prove their ideologies beyond doubt!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

This is called poisoning the well, and is a fallacy of relevance.

Logic: You're doing it wrong.

OTOH, I completely agree with your statement and submit your post as an example of the result.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

As most sensible people are aware, and those who have engaged in self development, male and female energies are very different.
It is not by accident that they are called the 'opposite' sex - The two opposite energies reflect our duality.
It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

I don't understand what these statements have to do with feminism. Please explain.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This is called poisoning the well,

....So you've given it a nice poetic authoritively sounding name....

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

and is a fallacy of relevance.

...and you've categorised it in an authoritively sounding way....

But have you thought about whether you actually agree with the statement??

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

But have you thought about whether you actually agree with the statement??

I said I did. I entirely agree that it is amazing how easy it is to brainwash people into believing something that is illogical.

And have you thought about the brainwashing you've undergone?

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I said I did. I entirely agree that it is amazing how easy it is to brainwash people into believing something that is illogical.

Sorry! I'm not familiar with all these abbreviations!

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

And have you thought about the brainwashing you've undergone?

How can you tell if someone has been brainwashed?
What gives it away?

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

As most sensible people are aware, and those who have engaged in self development, male and female energies are very different.
It is not by accident that they are called the 'opposite' sex - The two opposite energies reflect our duality.
It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I don't understand what these statements have to do with feminism. Please explain.

I see the two genders as opposite polarities - This is a 'normal' spiritual understanding. Even though the differences are great, they are of a subtle nature - This means that, in effect, it would be almost impossible to scientifically evaluate these differences - This is similar to spiritual ideas, in that scientific evaluation is not a good tool to use to convince skeptics, or those who have not yet reached an understanding.
For centuries. in every country in the world, these differences were celebrated, and the way men and women were treated in society evolved naturally over many centuries. This was a very slow process.

Because of the great influence of the media nowadays, unlike 'slower' times in the past, changes have been rapid.
The main difference was that, in the past, the slow changes were not made to happen by the decision of a few politicians, but happened in a more 'flowing' process, like a river, happening naturally. Each change stood the test of time. But in the last generation or two, a few politicians, blinded by their own dogma, and ignoring nature, decided that what had taken centuries to evolve was wrong, and that it must change. This is done largely by emotive manipulation.
As a relatively older person, I remember a time before this 'Political correctness'.
I remember when everyone thought it was stupid, except for a very small number of extreme politicians. What amazes me is that, the feelings of the whole country - mainly younger people - are radically different from previous generations.
I've seen the manipulations of the masses at first hand, not only in this case, but in numerous examples - It seems to be tremendously easy to brainwash the masses.
If you've ever read 'Animal Farm, that illustrates exactly what happens -People forget.
The bottom line is, in every country, from the earliest times, the differences between man and woman, were celebrated, but it is only in the last generation, and only in the west, that a few people decided to change all this - and because of the power of the media, they were able to do this.
I see the politicians as being so tied up in their political dogma, that they ignored, or weren't in touch with their true natural instincts.

[siryessir08]

I really wish she would have defined feminism.

By the definition of feminism being, "equal rights, regardless of gender," I would wholeheartedly call myself a feminist.

However, wouldn't that be an equigenderist or something?

In my experience, every girl I've ever met that has called herself a feminist has believed in female superiority... which is just as bad as male superiority in my opinion. These are the kind of feminists who forced Larry Summers to resign from his career as president of Harvard... turned out to be a pretty good decision in the long run though...

[MidasGirl]

@Martyn. I'm sorry. I still don't get what your argument has to do with feminism. Help me out here. What do you understand feminism to be?