Feminism: Outdated? Insult or praise?

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

I see the two genders as opposite polarities - This is a 'normal' spiritual understanding.

Are you sure you are not confusing "gender" with sexual orientation or sexuality? Do you mean to say that feminine and masculine energies are opposite polarities? If that is what you mean, I agree with you. But I also know that masculine/feminine energies have nothing to do with whether the person has a penis or a vagina. True that statistically, more males have higher masculine energy than females, and vice versa, but some women have an abundance of masculine energy, while some men have an abundance of feminine energy. Certainly everyone has the two energies present in them.

Still, I don't get what this has to do with feminism.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Do you mean to say that feminine and masculine energies are opposite polarities? If that is what you mean, I agree with you. But I also know that masculine/feminine energies have nothing to do with whether the person has a penis or a vagina.

As I said before, I see the body as an outward manifestation of the soul.
An individual's physical characteristics cannot be divorced from the higher self.
It is the source energy which creates the body in the first place.
The body is a perfect reflection of the soul.

To suggest that men are just as likely to be female in nature, seems a bit out of touch with reality, and is an example of what I said before, of an ideology which ignores the way things are.

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Are you sure you are not confusing "gender" with sexual orientation or sexuality?

I didn't think that we were discussing sexual orientation or sexuality - This is a different subject! - a 'cruder' subject
I am talking more of 'source energy' which is subtle in nature.
This is what determines gender, and is correlated to chromosomes.

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

True that statistically, more males have higher masculine energy than females, and vice versa, but some women have an abundance of masculine energy, while some men have an abundance of feminine energy. Certainly everyone has the two energies present in them.

Still, I don't get what this has to do with feminism.

The way things are in society is a consequence of the way things are at a deeper level.
Whlst we all have male and female energies in our being - a consequence of living in a duality, our gender is determined by our 'source energy', which could be thought of as the 'Main trunk' of our tree. Our single gender could be thought of as our connection with 'unity' or 'Oneness'.

Because the two energies are of a subtle, or intangible nature, it is easy for the manipulator to convince the masses that it is an illusion

[ar81]

I define feminism as "treating as equals" as opposed to the hierarchical concept of master-slave. In a way you could say that feminism as I understand it, is lack of hierarchy.

"Equal rights" could be a narrow definition, as rights refer to the law only, but mistreatment of women has a cultural and social origin.

[MidasGirl]

@Martyn: you seem to be ducking the core question I'm asking you, ie. How your argument relates to feminism. I'd have a lot to say regarding your post above, but that would derail this thread from the feminism discussion.

Please answer me this. What do you understand feminism to be?

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Please answer me this. What do you understand feminism to be?

A belief that the intrinsic nature of our present society causes females to be treated unfairly - Disatisfaction with the status quo - Wanting to change things.
That's the best I can do at the moment

My observation is that they ignore the intrinsic gender differences.
It seems to conflict with their political ideology

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Sorry! I'm not familiar with all these abbreviations!



How can you tell if someone has been brainwashed?
What gives it away?

Being incapable of understanding what they themself wrote is a pretty good indicator.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

And have you thought about the brainwashing you've undergone?

Originally Posted by Martyn13

How can you tell if someone has been brainwashed?
What gives it away?

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Being incapable of understanding what they themself wrote is a pretty good indicator.

It seems to me that there are two main possibilities -

(a) You are psychic enough to know that they are not capable of understanding what they wrote

(b) You are lacking in understanding of where they are coming from and therefore don't understand their arguments

In either event, it might be more constructive to discuss the issues rather than making what amounts to 'personal' comments, which assumes that you understand everything. That, after all, is the purpose of discussion

[aelle]

Martyn13, if the differences bewteen masculine and feminine energy are (as you claim) so subtle that they cannot be scientifically measured, why in the world would they result in (as you acknowledge) very major, very measurable differences between genders?

And I never claimed that there are no differences between the genders. I said that the intrinsic or acquired nature of these differences are impossible to determine by lack of a control group.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

(a) You are psychic enough to know that they are not capable of understanding what they wrote

If you look carefully, I have done nothing but repeat what you wrote. If you didn't understand what I said, then it is your own words you have failed to understand.

Let's spell this out:

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Sorry! I'm not familiar with all these abbreviations!

So, as I said. A good indicator is not understanding what you yourself wrote. You said that you didn't understand your words. Not me.

Originally Posted by Martyn13

In either event, it might be more constructive to discuss the issues rather than making what amounts to 'personal' comments. That, after all, is the purpose of discussion

I agree.

Please do not call people brainwashed simply because they hold a different opinion. It is called poisoning the well; it is a fallacy of relevance, because it's not relevant; you have used it several times now. Google for it.

Logical Fallacy: Poisoning the Well

Come now. You want to discuss the issue? Okay.

Give specific examples of grievances cited by established feminists. What part of our society do they claim causes females to be treated unfairly? How are these grievances invalid? How, exactly, does the subtle manifestation of soul energy result in this status quo? What changes are being, or have been, attempted against the status quo by feminism? Does this affect the source energy at all? Who is the manipulator deceiving the masses? What is he or she manipulating? How are they accomplishing it? Why is she or he doing it? Where did the dogma they were blinded by come from? What was their justification for it? Who else has caught onto this deception? How have they detected it? What changes occurred to reveal its presence? What effect do chromosomes have on society? What examples of the celebration of the differences between genders can you show us? If feminism manifested in society, what does that say about the deeper level that society is based off?

So let's discuss the issue. No more of this meandering. Let's see some detail for this theory. Let's see some elbow grease. I have heard the arguments you are putting forward before; there is some factual basis, of course. So maybe you're correct. But we'll never know until you actually take the training wheels off and, how did you put it?, bring it in touch with reality.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Please do not call people brainwashed simply because they hold a different opinion. It is called poisoning the well; it is a fallacy of relevance, because it's not relevant; you have used it several times now. Google for it.

My reference to brainwashing refered to society as a whole, and not to any one person. If one has lived through history for a long enough period, and remained relatively detached, it is easy to see how the population as a whole is easily manipulated. E.g. Germany. This is entirely different to accusing one person, who you have never met, of being brainwashed and incapable of understanding what they wrote

Originally Posted by aelle

Martyn13, if the differences bewteen masculine and feminine energy are (as you claim) so subtle that they cannot be scientifically measured, why in the world would they result in (as you acknowledge) very major, very measurable differences between genders?

It is a paradox of the duality in which we live, that subtleties / intangibles have the greatest effect on the whole.

I think I'm talking in a different language to political activists -
I really only joined in to balance the views, looking at it from a deeper, more holistic angle.
If you have not realised the spriritual truths, then it is not easy to convince anyone, because it is not a scientific thing.

Incidentally - note to Michael Chui -
Isn't aelle saying '(as you claim)' and 'in the world' examples of 'Poisoning the well'? - I.e. Biased language

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Come now. You want to discuss the issue? Okay.

Give specific examples of grievances cited by established feminists. What part of our society do they claim causes females to be treated unfairly? How are these grievances invalid? How, exactly, does the subtle manifestation of soul energy result in this status quo? What changes are being, or have been, attempted against the status quo by feminism? Does this affect the source energy at all? Who is the manipulator deceiving the masses? What is he or she manipulating? How are they accomplishing it? Why is she or he doing it? Where did the dogma they were blinded by come from? What was their justification for it? Who else has caught onto this deception? How have they detected it? What changes occurred to reveal its presence? What effect do chromosomes have on society? What examples of the celebration of the differences between genders can you show us? If feminism manifested in society, what does that say about the deeper level that society is based off?

So let's discuss the issue. No more of this meandering. Let's see some detail for this theory. Let's see some elbow grease. I have heard the arguments you are putting forward before; there is some factual basis, of course. So maybe you're correct. But we'll never know until you actually take the training wheels off and, how did you put it?, bring it in touch with reality.

Crikey!!

So many questions and so little time!!
It might be easier to apply for Randi's challenge!
Now if I was female, it would be easier to multi-task!
Unfortunately, I am a mere male mortal, and can only do serial processing rather than parallel processing.
I have to be honest - I have only a certain limited motivation when it comes to anonymous discussion - unlike may forum regulars.
If there is an obvious question, then that is different, but prolonged challenged discussion is less relaxing and also feels as if I'm talking to myself! No offence!

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

A belief that the intrinsic nature of our present society causes females to be treated unfairly - Disatisfaction with the status quo - Wanting to change things.
That's the best I can do at the moment

My observation is that they ignore the intrinsic gender differences.
It seems to conflict with their political ideology

Martyn, do you think there was at any time before the feminism movement developed when the intrinsic nature of our society caused females to be treated unfairly?

[Brutha]

Isn't aelle saying '(as you claim)' and 'in the world' examples of 'Poisoning the well'? - I.e. Biased language

Poisioning the well doesn't mean "biased language". It's a specific fallacy and I don't see where all aelle is guilty of it.

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Martyn, do you think there was at any time before the feminism movement developed when the intrinsic nature of our society caused females to be treated unfairly?

I do not know the answer to this question.

I have been discussing the feminist movement, rather than any other hypothetical movement, which may have been very different.
I have seen what the feminist movement has done, and how it has gone against natural differences, and how over a generation or two, how their activity has changed society. The movement as a whole, doesn't seem to be in touch with the nature of masculinity.
I have seen that, before the popularity of this movement, the vast majority were content with the status quo, and a few political activists began to alter society to make people disatisfied with their gender roles. This caused males to be alienated and caused a divide in understanding between the sexes.
Of course I can't prove it scientifically - I can only relate my understanding.
Whatever the feminists have tried to do, less men understand women's true sensitivities these days, and more females are aware only of having sexual power over men - In other words, there is less 'magic' in relationships, they are less likely to last - more disfunctional society

It is possible that, in another dimension, an entirely different, perhaps more sensitive, movement may have arisen, and handled things differently, and had different goals - and not alienated men - but this is not the subject of our discussion

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Crikey!!

So many questions and so little time!!
It might be easier to apply for Randi's challenge!
Now if I was female, it would be easier to multi-task!
Unfortunately, I am a mere male mortal, and can only do serial processing rather than parallel processing.
I have to be honest - I have only a certain limited motivation when it comes to anonymous discussion - unlike may forum regulars.
If there is an obvious question, then that is different, but prolonged challenged discussion is less relaxing and also feels as if I'm talking to myself! No offence!

Anonymous? Well, then. Hi. My name is Michael Chui. I am 24; I live in Seattle; I spend the vast majority of my day working downtown and enjoy relaxing with a good book in the evenings.

I am also male, and I have no problem multitasking. However, I am also working in a textual medium: every question asked necessarily comes after, not during, another question. It's serial, yeah?

Surely you are not simply avoiding the questions! Is your theory so shabby that it stands up to no scrutiny? Let's discuss the issues, you said.

So discuss them.

I'll tell you what. I'll just handwave away all those challenging, concurrent questions fit only for the gods, and I'll just leave you with one question:

"If feminism manifested in society, what does that say about the deeper level that society is based off?"

[lasti]

It is amazing that it is so easy to brainwash people to believe anything, even if it is illogical.

It's easy to say that. But who says that you aren't the one who is brainwashed?

Also, as those who have done self development are very aware, the physical body is a reflection of the soul, and not an entity on its own.

So what about transvestites for example?

What does this all have to do with equality by the way?

[lasti]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

I have seen what the feminist movement has done, and how it has gone against natural differences, and how over a generation or two, how their activity has changed society. The movement as a whole, doesn't seem to be in touch with the nature of masculinity.
I have seen that, before the popularity of this movement, the vast majority were content with the status quo, and a few political activists began to alter society to make people disatisfied with their gender roles. This caused males to be alienated and caused a divide in understanding between the sexes.
Of course I can't prove it scientifically - I can only relate my understanding.
Whatever the feminists have tried to do, less men understand women's true sensitivities these days, and more females are aware only of having sexual power over men - In other words, there is less 'magic' in relationships, they are less likely to last - more disfunctional society

It is possible that, in another dimension, an entirely different, perhaps more sensitive, movement may have arisen, and handled things differently, and had different goals - and not alienated men - but this is not the subject of our discussion

Why do you let yourself get alienated? You don't need anybody else to know who you are! Why don't you just live in congruency with who you are and be happy?
Who cares what other people say?

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

I do not know the answer to this question.

I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are being honest when you say you don't know whether or not feminism had any real issues to address in the first place. In which case I will invite you to research more about feminism because it's obvious you know nothing about it. Start here.

Whatever the feminists have tried to do, less men understand women's true sensitivities these days, and more females are aware only of having sexual power over men - In other words, there is less 'magic' in relationships, they are less likely to last - more disfunctional society

I think it's a joke to say that feminists aren't in touch with nature's masculinity. Aren't feminists actually accused of being too much in touch with masculinity? Again, laughable whenever you hear certain people talk about "the good old days when men were men". Hmmmmmm.......women have usurped their masculinity and now they are merely victims. How fragile! My take is that those men who were always real men have survived this power shift just fine. And personally, I blame the lack of male role models (many absent fathers) for any wussy-fication of young men today (if indeed it is a fact and not just exaggeration by dating gurus). Blaming feminists will not help solve the problem.

You also talk of feminists having had a need to change the status quo. Duh! Status quo is actually an oxymoron. It's always changing. The sooner people can realize that the sooner they can learn the beautiful art of embracing societal change so that they can use it for their maximum benefit. Instead what I hear are various forms of cries of ........'the good ole' days'. Good for whom?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Bless you (sorry!)

Please. Never apologize for being nothing but a child at heart.

Originally Posted by Martyn13

The reason why certain things manifest, is perhaps a question that only god himself can answer.

So God is responsible for feminism?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Martyn13

I never said that!

Oh, good. That would definitely explain why I had to ask, then.

So, let me see if I understand your theory. You have your microcosmic theory:

"There are male energies and female energies, and they are 'very different' and 'opposite'. Therefore, feminism is 'stupid'."

And your macrocosmic theory:

"'The way things are in society is a consequence of the way things are at a deeper level.' The way things were in society when I was younger was natural and evolved slowly over time. The way things are in society now, as a result of feminism, is artificial and the result of master manipulators brainwashing the masses. Therefore, feminism is unnatural."

What would you change about my summarization? Am I missing anything? Have I added anything unnecessary or inaccurate?

Originally Posted by Martyn13

Life experiences are our teachers, and if everything was exactly as we want it to be, we would never have the chance to grow -

How have you grown from feminism?

[MidasGirl]

Moving on with feminism discussion............... I loved the comments on the blog that aelle linked to. Sums it up really well to show why some see feminism as a thorny issue. Because of the things feminists stand for (mostly liberal stances such as pro-choice etc) I can see how feminism can be seen as polarizing. For me, I see feminism as the vehicle that has allowed me today to be able to choose the kind of lifestyle I want.

If I want to stay home and raise my child, up to me. If I want to go out there and work in a male-dominated career, my choice. And I never have to feel a need to justify either choice, or to feel judged as either lacking ambition or being too ambitious as to want to compete with men. I know that some very brave women had to take the bullets for me to have this choice, and they are my heroes. I don't self identify as a femimist because I don't need to really, these women already did all the heart-wrenching work for us, I just worship the women who started it all.......Yay feminism........

[Angela]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

For me, I see feminism as the vehicle that has allowed me today to be able to choose the kind of lifestyle I want.

If I want to stay home and raise my child, up to me. If I want to go out there and work in a male-dominated career, my choice. And I never have to feel a need to justify either choice, or to feel judged as either lacking ambition or being too ambitious as to want to compete with men. I know that some very brave women had to take the bullets for me to have this choice, and they are my heroes. I don't self identify as a femimist because I don't need to really, these women already did all the heart-wrenching work for us, I just worship the women who started it all.......Yay feminism........

Ditto! Yayyyy feminism!!! And a big thank you to those women AND men who have stood up for equal rights. I feel inspired to pay that forward.

[James81]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

If I want to stay home and raise my child, up to me. If I want to go out there and work in a male-dominated career, my choice. And I never have to feel a need to justify either choice, or to feel judged as either lacking ambition or being too ambitious as to want to compete with men. I know that some very brave women had to take the bullets for me to have this choice, and they are my heroes. I don't self identify as a femimist because I don't need to really, these women already did all the heart-wrenching work for us, I just worship the women who started it all.......Yay feminism........

I have to say that your view is the most healthy and productive and TRULY feminist view I've seen yet. You nailed it exactly.

Too many feminists these days use feminism as a vehicle for misandry, and those feminists seem to be hindering the cause for the rest of women by bringing a negative connotation to what feminism is really about.

I wish more feminists thought like you, though, because the idea of feminism is such a powerful idea and vehicle for women.

[Parthon]

I see feminism as another symptom of the ego strangled society we live in. It's not the cause of the decline of civilisation by a long way.

Instead of trying to fit yourself into your own gender roles, or those of "feminist" or any other label out there, find out for yourself who you are deep down inside and be true to that.

And stop being so selfish. You do share this world with over 6.7 billion other people.