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| Character & Contribution Values, integrity, finding your purpose, living your purpose, serving the greater good, making a difference, changing the world, charity, polarity, lightworkers, darkworkers |
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08-19-2009, 03:38 AM
| #1 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
Posts: 5,799
  |  What does it mean to earn something?
Serious question. I never look at a person who possesses something, and wonder whether they earned it. I never look at the things I possess, or the experiences I have, and wonder whether I earned them. I honestly don't know what people mean when they use the word "earn". If you have a perspective, please share away. This came up in a conversation I had (online) with a girl, one time. Somehow we got to "a person has to earn the things they have". And I told her I don't know what "earn" means, and asked if she could please explain it. Rapidly she accused me ingratiatingly (sarcasm) of having a sense of entitlement, told me outright she found me disgusting, and said she could no longer continue the conversation as it made her physically ill. I ended up a little befuddled, and still not knowing what "earn" means. I also don't know what the related words "deserve" and "fair" mean, so if you have a perspective on 'em please share it also. Last edited by Plays With Life; 08-19-2009 at 03:57 AM. Reason: Clarified my sarcasm. |
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08-19-2009, 03:46 AM
| #3 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 22,520
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Well, I think you already know how I feel about "earning" and "deserving" and "fair" -- they're beginner's words, like blame and shame. Of course we know what what these words mean in mundane conversation -- it's "fair" to give you half the lottery ticket winnings, since we went in on it together, even though I was the one who actually purchased it. You "earned" the money your boss paid you this week. You "deserve" two ten minute breaks each day. That's just ordinary talk, so you can move freely among ordinary talkers. It's like a little game inside a bigger game. In real life, those are just concepts we agree to abide by for these mundane transactions -- considerations more in line with our higher values have us making our actual choices. I can see how that might piss people off, if you don't play the little game, or refuse to apply the little game rules when you're playing the bigger game. |
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08-20-2009, 06:40 PM
| #4 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA
Posts: 59
| How about also looking at those terms alongside their opposites? Earning something versus a freebie where you're given something without having to do anything for it. Deserving something versus undeserving and fair versus unfair where for examples, someone receives a good grade despite having cheated or if they're stealing the credit for someone else's good deeds and they get away with it. Does a person really need to earn the things they have? Not necessarily. But I feel that doing so can certainly elevate one's stature and image among the eyes of others.  |
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08-20-2009, 06:47 PM
| #5 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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08-20-2009, 10:20 PM
| #6 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: May 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 989
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I think that one of the reasons why famous people tend to implode at very alarming rates is the idea of 'earned vs unearned.' Their deep sense of self conflicts with what the world tells them every minute of every day of their lives. Inside, they feel inadequate or even maybe shamed but everyone treats them like demi-gods and money just pours in for seemingly little effort. When I was younger, I think the trend was to build self-esteem in your kids by praising them to high heaven. But I was shy and insecure and my mom and dad's praise wasn't just hollow to me, it was practically mocking. Even though they obviously never intended that. Which made me worse because now I felt deep down I couldn't even trust my own parents to be real to me. Most people's lives in first world countries are based on an inherent "value for value" system. You trade a dollar for a soda. You babysit my kids on Friday, I have yours over next Saturday. I want a new car, I work X number of hours, save Y number of dollars and buy the car. Now envision that you walk up to a store and just take the soda, smile and walk out. Then get home and allow your friend to watch your kids, with no intention of reciprocating, no payment in return. Then go to the car dealer and ask for a car with no trade, no money and no value in return. How does that make you feel? Like a crook? (You should answer yes to that, in case you need a hint.  )When you get...being that we live in a world based on duality...(light/dark, good/bad, right/wrong, easy/hard, beautiful/ugly, mean/friendly)....you should also be giving. Get/give. Give/get. That is just how things work in this place. When you take without giving, society even shuns you to varying degrees. Like homeless people, people on welfare, people who look healthy but use those handicapped placards to get good parking spaces... To me, earn means you trade some sort of value for something perceived to be of equal value. Jennifer |
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08-20-2009, 10:49 PM
| #7 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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Thanks for your perspective, Dreamline. Quote:
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08-21-2009, 12:23 AM
| #9 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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Do you mean my experience doesn't fit in reality? Or something? To give an example from my perspective: do you ever go over to a friends house, and they give you something to eat? Do you feel like you "didn't earn" that food, or something like that? People often give without expecting anything in return, and people also receive without feeling the need to give something in return. (or maybe that only happens in my reality?? I don't know) I've had complete strangers invite me in for a lunch or dinner, many-a-time. And I never felt that I needed to "earn" that food in any way. Or that I hadn't earned it, because I didn't give them something in return. The whole earning thing just confuses me. |
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08-21-2009, 01:00 AM
| #10 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: May 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 989
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I think there is a big difference--maybe not in your world--between having dinner at a friend's house and walking out of a store without paying for a Coke or expecting a car dealership to just give you one. No? Maybe you can find a commune left over from the 60s...but even there, everyone earns their keep to support the whole, so that might not be ideal either. Sorry, I guess I can't relate. Jennifer |
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08-21-2009, 01:07 AM
| #11 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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Ahh .. I wouldn't EXPECT anyone to give me something. (even if I work in exchange for it, btw) I mean to say - if someone decides to give me something, I don't feel ashamed about receiving it. I don't measure what I have against the actions I've taken (I think earn means something like that) |
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08-21-2009, 02:59 AM
| #12 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 184
| Quote:
While you may not expect anyone to give you anything even in exchange for work, would you be as motivated to do the work if you knew for a certainty that you would get nothing in return? Would you keep on doing it day after day with no return on the investment of your time and effort? Most people aren't willing to and will soon put their efforts into something with a return, where there is a give and take interplay that makes them feel that their contribution is valued. To me that is what "earning" is about... evaluating your contribution. You still get to set all kinds of rules for yourself about the value you place on what you contribute, and what you get in return but it does boil down to keeping score... Most people need to feel that they are "ahead" or that the scores are "even" to be content. | |
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08-21-2009, 03:41 AM
| #13 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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 If I work with the aim to receive money, of course I wouldn't do it for no money. If I work at something I just want to do, receiving something "in exchange" doesn't have any place in my mind. I just do what I want to do. I do it because I want to do it. About the not expecting money in exchange for work: I mean to say that if I work in exchange for some money, within a prearranged agreement of exchange, then the other folks decide to not pay me - I don't have some sense of "I didn't get what I deserve!" or "but I Earned that money!". I just move on to some other experience. I aimed to receive money, via the channel of doing this work, it didn't happen that way, well I'll have to try something else. | |
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08-22-2009, 06:55 PM
| #14 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Off this forum from 10/27/10 to 10/27/11. Yay me!
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 Seriously, has it even occurred to you that maybe the OP is asking a very deep philosophical question but you are taking it on a superficial level? Maybe the reason people stay in jobs they dislike or are miserable doing is because they believe they have to "earn" if it kills them. Last edited by MidasGirl; 08-22-2009 at 07:08 PM. | |
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08-22-2009, 09:45 PM
| #16 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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"I am better than you, and you are less than me, because I've earned." "I deserve more than you, and you deserve less than me, because I've earned." When the criteria for whether a person has earned has no clear definition, and actually differs depending on who you talk to. It just seems to me that the whole earn idea creates a kind of widespread elitism. It prompts a kind of more-than/less-than, more-deserving/less-deserving classification of human beings. Based on some unclear criteria of which people you place in each category. For example, it seems to allow people to look at a person who has little or nothing (ie, a bum on the street), and actually feel contempt for that person, and a kind of superiority over them. They didn't do anything, so they don't deserve to have anything. I did something, so I (upturned nose) am more deserving than THAT lot. | |
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08-22-2009, 09:56 PM
| #17 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Off this forum from 10/27/10 to 10/27/11. Yay me!
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I do get where you are coming from with "earn" Jen. It's not like I don't. But the point I was making to Time is that I doubt the OP was looking for the dictionary definition of the word. Incidentally (and thanks to Plays for causing me to think deeply about this concept), the more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that if we let go of "earn", it'd be much easier to bridge the "earning gap" that everyone talks about. But we deny ourselves because we believe we have to earn it. When you keep asking yourself what it really means, personally, I can't help but see that "earn" comes from a place of lack of worth. And I'm not even talking about money now. For example I'm a really happy person. I have no idea what I did to earn it. I just wake up and decide to be happy. Last edited by MidasGirl; 08-22-2009 at 09:59 PM. | |
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08-22-2009, 10:38 PM
| #18 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: May 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 989
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I actually don't treat anyone like a slug. But society, as a whole, has made it clear they are willing to do so. My question is, assuming that Plays is NOT an alien from outer space, why would you not want to contribute to the support of the economy that supports you? Why would you not want to earn? What is wrong with trading value for value? Jennifer |
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08-22-2009, 10:51 PM
| #19 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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I don't see anything wrong with trading value for value. I use the reciprocation construct often, because pretty much every person on the planet understands it and uses it. I have it as one channel to the things I want, and often the most readily available channel. I kind of think of this in relation to nature. (what Time meant by "earn" existing in nature, I don't know). When I look at a plant, I never wonder if it earned or deserves the sunlight it receives, or the nutrients or water it receives from the soil. If I see one plant in the shade of another, not getting enough sunlight - I also don't think about whether that plant did something to earn some sunlight, and should receive more. Plants just have, or don't have, the things they have or don't have. I see human beings the same way. People have, people don't have - I just don't have any earn dimension at all when I see the situation. (if you could elaborate the question, please do) | |
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08-22-2009, 11:21 PM
| #20 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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08-23-2009, 12:07 AM
| #21 (permalink) | ||
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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Alright, I finally had to get honest about my location. I changed it (see up-right!). It just fits better for me to stop hiding where I live. OK, I thought a little about this .. Quote:
I didn't say I don't want to earn; I asked what earn means. I can't want or not want it if I don't have a conception of it to begin with. This makes me think of someone saying - "I don't believe in right/wrong" - and someone else responding - "But don't you want to do the Right Thing?". You can't really want, or not want it if you don't have it in your mind to begin with. Quote:
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08-23-2009, 01:49 AM
| #22 (permalink) | |
| Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 184
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Or people who decide at a certain point that they would rather bestow their generosity elsewhere? I suppose if you find other peoples generosity a mainstay of your lifestyle it would be fortunate if they continue to offer it you and not elsewhere. It seems that not having much in the way of expectations works well for you... many people however are relying on that exchange - the 10 hour day they put in at work was done specifically in order to get money to pay rent and bills and buy food... they almost certainly would not have put in that effort if told they would get nothing in return for it and not getting paid impacts their sense of security... they get upset by that and pursue the payment - the words used when doing this in English usually involve entitlement and earning. If you have little/no needs that must be met it is much easier to chalk it up to a learning experience and do something else next time, and many many people do this a lot in life... and in these circumstances often don't bother with using those words of "earn" or "deserve"... As for doing something you "want to do" without any thing in exchange - well you have already named what you seek in exchange... this is something you "want to do"... you might be getting stimulation, interest, excitement, satisfaction, etc etc from doing it - if you were getting nothing at all from it I doubt that you would "want to do" it... Most people are happy to do things they find rewarding, or enjoyable in some way with no other exchange than the good feelings they get from doing it - the exchange of their efforts for that good feeling is still an exchange. Mastering a complex skill is immensely satisfying for many people, and part of the satisfaction is that you have worked for the skill through your efforts and yielded a result that you like - for most people just being gifted with the skill through no effort of their own would hold less value. I appreciate that you keep pointing out how you do things differently, however are you able to grasp that this is what is meant by most folks when they talk about "earning" something, or "deserving" something? You may not choose to use those terms or to practice those concepts for yourself but you will probably find communicating with most people easier if you can grasp them. I'm curious - if you have no application in your life of the concepts of earning something or deserving something - do you place any intrinsic value on your time and efforts - do you have any sense of anything you can do being "worth" anything - or are all your skills/talents and efforts valueless in your own eyes? How do you determine or choose how to spend your time? | |
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08-23-2009, 02:41 AM
| #23 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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Whew, intricate post Mogget. I'll see if I can respond to everything, but forgive me if I don't hit on all the points. Re "people like that", I only meant a playful little jab there. Re people working 10 hour days and whatnot - You don't need the concepts of earn or deserve to do that. Re doing what I want to do - I do the thing because I enjoy the doing of it, and not because I receive something After doing it, in exchange for what I did. I mean I receive intrinsic enjoyment During the experience, not exchange After the action. Re that "this" is what people mean when they talk about earning - "This" what?? I don't see any description of earning in your post. I read back through it, but I just don't see it. If you can clarify that, please shoot 'er back at me. Re this - Quote:
Re how I choose to spend my time - Based on what I want, I reckon. | |
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08-23-2009, 04:49 PM
| #24 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 80
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It's like if you asked to explain the concept of death, or the concept of why the apple falls from a tree, that's why you are getting such angry reactions. But ok. You do know the concept "earning" and "deserve", you just state your question wrong. You say that you don't care about goals or objectives, but about feelings or experiences you are getting during anything you do. What you are just explaining more or less is that you don't care about materialistic goals, but about going through the experiences. But you still do expect to earn something. You expect to earn(or, get in exchange for doing anything) some kind of feeling or experience. Imagine that someone would have a switch of your experiences or feelings that get to you, and he would switch it off. In anything you would do, you wouldn't get anything in exchange. No feelings. No experiences. Would you just smile and walk on as an empty shell? Wouldn't you feel you deserve to get feelings and experience? Deserve is just a feeling that comes after unfulfilled expectations. Everyone expects, you too. If you don't get what you expect, you feel you deserved it. If you walk 1 mile you expect to get somewhere, if a wizard teleported you again and again to your starting point after 1 mile, would you just happily walk on forever and let yourself be pushed back? Or would you feel you deserve to move somewhere after walking for such a long time? Another problem might be your self esteem, if you've got very low self esteem you feel like you don't need to get or deserve anything - simply because you don't value yourself. Maybe it's the combination of both. |
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08-23-2009, 05:22 PM
| #25 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: May 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 989
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Here I knitted ten scarves. Take what you want. Or, I just randomly built these 15 living spaces from these supplies that just happened to be sitting here. First come, first served. Or, I sat on my ass all day doing nothing. Hope no one cares. Anyone have any food? You know, like that. Jennifer | |
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08-23-2009, 06:32 PM
| #26 (permalink) |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Sitting by the fire at the Inn of the Last Home
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@ falcan - I didn't say I don't care about goals or objectives ( huhwhat  ). When I pursue something I take action that I think will lead to a result I want. But I don't do anything to affect my deservedness. I deserve to have the thing before I do anything.I maintain that the word actually refers to some vapor-like construct, and nobody really knows what it means. If it refers to something as obvious as gravity, for example, a simple expression would explain it. Of course, I have an awareness of the situations people use this terminology in. But what precisely they mean by the word? It escapes me. For example, how do you decide, exactly, whether a person has earned the car they have? |
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08-23-2009, 08:02 PM
| #27 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 159
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it was a word probably invented alongside money. I definitely think people give varying amounts of value to receive the same amount of value in this capitalistic system. So different people in different professions EARN at different rates in this society. When other people see you earn something by working 1 hour where it would take them 4 hours to earn themselves, then they are bound to think it's unfair. Most often the individuals who are born into a family that earns at higher rates take it for granted too, which means people are going to despise you. |
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08-23-2009, 09:45 PM
| #28 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 282
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First off, I think there is an important lesson to be learned in this thread, regardless: if someone, from your perspective, appears to be stupid and not deserving of an answer, then just don't answer. "Just. Walk. Away." Plays With Life, I think you will have to accept the fact that from your perspective, 'earn' cannot be explained. Why? Because it's based on vague concepts of right, wrong, and fair. For example, let's say I've been working on a project day-in, day-out, for three weeks, and finally the project has been completed. Then my boss says, "Well done Kaze, take a vacation, you've earned it." What does she mean by "earned"? Well, when I signed up for the job, we agreed that I would work 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. So my employer expects me to work 40hrs a week. If I go beyond the amount of work that I need to do, she views this as selfless dedication, which she labels "good". Now that I've done something "good" for an extended period of time, she feels like it would be "right" to pay me more than what was agreed upon for my work. She feels like it would "unfair" to let my hard-work go unnoticed, and thus she gives me extra time off to make up for the extra work I did. So essentially, words like earn deserve fair right wrong stem from internal feelings about the nature of reality that have no real basis. It's a system of checks and balances, which actually makes our society a more happy, wholesome society overall. Ideas like earn and deserve are indirect ways of discouraging perfectly legal actions and encouraging other equally effective actions. Seeking praise and avoiding scorn are natural human tendencies. But you can't understand these words without acknowledging these alogical concepts and feelings and meanings behind these words. I'd go so far as to call these words "content-free" in that they mean nothing by themselves, but point towards a human truth that we either can't or care not to define. You cannot understand these concepts without a perspective shift. As long as you adhere to your system of handling concepts, these words will be empty and meaningless. While I'm at it: how do you decide, exactly, whether a person has earned the car they have implies that there is an exact way to define things. Why would there be an exact way to define things anyway? I might say that you didn't earn that car if you got it illegally, but that's a specific connotation. I might say you didn't earn that car if you had to work less than X amount of hours to be able to obtain it, but I'm sure you would agree with me that such a definition is absurd. Essentially what we are doing is covering a blanket of criteria with one word so that we can get our ideas across. I'll say it again: you cannot understand these concepts looking at words as things with specific definitions; your perspective is inadequate for comprehending the meaning of "earn". Take that as you will. |
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