Ideas vs people

[ar81]

In another thread where we were discussing about thw world, a member here felt compared to Hitler, when I pointed out an idea.

I came to realize that realiy for people is a perception, and even if that's not what I said, or at least what I intended, probably it may have caused a bad moment to this member.

In the past I used to grasp idealistic ideas, fairy tales we are told, and I used to attach to them, until I realized the world was putting them down one by one, with strong facts. So I had to learn to detach from nearly anything. Attachment leads to suffering.

In the past, if someone attacked my ideas, I felt attacked. Nowadays, if an idea is proven wrong, well, that's it. It is time to adopt a new one, based on the new lessons.

I am not an idea, I am a person, I can change my mind. An idea can be demolished, but my essence remains. My ideas are merely electric signals, I am the one that contain them.

But it came to my mind later that not everyone have passed what I have passed. So if I offended someone by questioning ideas, or pointing similarities or differences between ideas, it was not intended to be ad hominem.

And then it comes the issue of how we are going to improve the world as long as people attach to ideas as if they were part of their being.

Is it that people attach to their ideas because they think of ideas as a belief? Or perhaps they think they are ideas and not beings? What do you think?

[Power]

One aspect of human nature is that it doesn't like being told that they are wrong. Questioning an idea or belief at times can be perceived as an attack. After that perception, they then shift into defensive mode. Trying to protect the attachment or identity of their existence through their belief or idea.

Part of it is also change. Change is uncomfortable for most human beings and their nature. We tend to find comfort in certainty and change is uncertain. A change in belief or an idea won't give-in peacefully and quietly. Resistance is around the corner whenever you question a belief/idea, whether you are coming from a open-minded conversation or on neutral grounds.

Clearly, there are millions of people walking around on deluded ideas and beliefs (IMO). And clearly, those deluded people also thinks that I am also deluded

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by Power

One aspect of human nature is that it doesn't like being told that they are wrong.

That is an excellent point, but is that true for all people?

[JRhodes]

Originally Posted by Remiel

That is an excellent point, but is that true for all people?

I don't think anyone likes being told they're wrong but the difference is how certain people deal with it. Some will analyze the comment logically and come to the conclusion that they were either wrong or right, while others can take it as a personal attack.

[ComplicatedSimplicity]

Great thread

Im totally with you, we are not our minds, I like to think of the mind as an accessory. One of the greatest gifts in this life is being able to accept with grace being wrong. Because lets face it weve all been wrong (and most still are).

I went through a stage where I went the opposite way and 'thought' (excuse the irony) we dont need the mind. Like my body rejected my thoughts. But I was wrong, took it on the chin and accepted that although the mind is not as important as most people think. Its still pretty cool to have- ESPECIALLY when its a good one

[ns123]

Originally Posted by ar81

And then it comes the issue of how we are going to improve the world as long as people attach to ideas as if they were part of their being.

I think this is a good point. But this is what I hear when I read the above line - some one else must change before the world improves. That I've done my part by detaching ideas from my identity. So now, if everyone else does this we can really make a difference!

Since you have come to this awareness that for many (less aware) people, attacking their ideas are perceived as attacking them, what you could do, is choose a more effective method of convincing them to consider your points. You could communicate in a way that is more gentle, or less attack-ish?

I'm just saying the 2nd belief puts you more in a position of power, instead of giving your power away to other people.

[ar81]

"I attach to that rock.
That rock is part of my identity.
If you move that road to build a road to bring food from the farm to the town, you will be attacking me.
If you try to crack or hurt the rock, you are trying to kill me and I will defend the rock to death".
This is exactly what attachment to ideas do to us.

In the past I met people who thought about US as "police of the world", then I met those who believed "US is imperialist". Who is right? None. But if I try to question their idea, they will jump on me.

[Power]

Originally Posted by Remiel

That is an excellent point, but is that true for all people?

Yes, for all people. It is in our psychological make up. We are all born with it. One of the Humanity's imperfection which was purposely woven into the grand design

Then through life experience, personal growth/development or education, 1% of the population becomes aware and resilient to this psychological nature. It is one of the many psychological human nature, which Eckhart Tolle (a new earth) calls it "our inherited dysfunction", which we need to realize and overcome.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by Power

Yes, for all people. It is in our psychological make up. We are all born with it. One of the Humanity's imperfection which was purposely woven into the grand design

Then through life experience, personal growth/development or education, 1% of the population becomes aware and resilient to this psychological nature. It is one of the many psychological human nature, which Eckhart Tolle (a new earth) calls it "our inherited dysfunction", which we need to realize and overcome.

I see how you feel that way. I've felt that way myself and what I found was that different personality types have different core fears. Some can't stand being wrong, some can't stand change, some can't stand losing / being manipulated, and then there are some, of whom I am one of, who can't stand losing approval.

Is that in alignment with what you are saying?

[Power]

Originally Posted by Remiel

I've felt that way myself and what I found was that different personality types have different core fears. Some can't stand being wrong, some can't stand change, some can't stand losing / being manipulated, and then there are some, of whom I am one of, who can't stand losing approval.

Is that in alignment with what you are saying?

Yes, the underlying fears. It boils down to the core fear of individuals when you dig a little deeper.

And I agree with what JRhodes had written, "...the difference is how certain people deal with it." I guess that only comes from personal growth. I guess we won't be able to act accordingly to a situation if we did not learn anything new from our first encounter of such experience.

[Power]

Originally Posted by ar81

And then it comes the issue of how we are going to improve the world as long as people attach to ideas as if they were part of their being.

I've always tried to live my life as what Ghandi have taught us:

"Be the change, you want to see in the world."

But then again, I see extremist, killing people because they are just following their own beliefs and ideas about how to change the world for the better Let's bomb so and so in the name of God...

As much as I'd like to think that humanity has come very far and evolved with great science, technology, philosophy and the creative arts. I still see so many idiots walking around which I wouldn't dare trust with a butter knife

(My last paragraph can be misinterpreted, it's humor, but it's part of our reality, whether you may be offended or not. You can pretend it's not happening, look away or sweep it under the rug. You can throw me the old argument that it is a subjective reality of my own perception.)

My belief is that the world is also filled with great people. I believe that every person have the potential to make this world a better place. How?

"A shift in awareness"

What type of shift? I'll let you answer that for yourself, because you and I know if you just take the time to be still and listen... you feel it within your being