The value of honesty in mainstream society

[siryessir08]

I want to be a congressman.

I've recently began going to school again to major in political science.

My original reason for wanting to become a congressman is because I see nothing but dishonesty in the house and the senate, and I want to see at least one honest politician.


But...I've recently realized...that being honest would make me unelectable. No wonder there are no honest politicians. Mainstream America does not value honesty.

For example, it's a fact that african americans, in general, are having a hard time getting out of low income urban areas. Blacks in urban areas have dropout rates in high school of roughly 50%.
In all HONESTY, this is a result of black culture today. Doing your homework and getting good grades, in a predominantly black school, is selling out. You're being "white." If you are going to be black, like your friends, you better aspire to something like being a professional basketball player or a rapper.
I don't understand why so many urban blacks are aversive to success, as if success is a bad thing because it's a "white" thing.

As a politician, if I were to say this, I would be labeled a racist. I could kiss all my black votes goodbye. All I'm doing, in reality, is honestly commenting on my observations.

Do any of you believe mainstream society does, in fact, value honesty?

I don't blame politicians for being what they have to be to stay elected, does anyone think it would be possible to actually be honest as a politician?

How then, can I become an elected official, and still be true to my values?

[moriez]

First of all I think all of us want honesty deep in our hearts. So yes, mainstream society wants this. The problem is money, power and the hypnotized state of mind a lot of people are in around the world. I do blame politicians for doing what they have to do to get elected: derailing the public under false pretense. The thing is we almost never know what is true and what isnt, do we? Within the current system/worlds state of mind youre going to have an awfull hard time. I hope you will stick to your honesty no matter what and like anyone who speaks the truth fight hard! Honesty and justness are spotted from miles away. This simply must appeal to all and one day get you elected?

[Brutha]

I've recently began going to school again to major in political science.

I don't really understand why people think that majoring in political science will help you to become a congressman.
Most of your professors aren't congressman or have other poltical experience but make theoretical arguments that don't have much to do with the day to day work of a politician.

[Cheshire Cat]

Well, as much as I highly value the virtues of honesty, it seems very difficult to be 100% honest without offending someone to some degree, especially if that honesty comes across as critical or negative. I believe mainstream society would prefer more honest politicians, but I think we also don't expect them to be completely truthful. So long as they do their job and can give us productive results, we won't complain (much).

Your 'honesty' regarding the black culture is understandable but not necessarily accurate. Certainly, some blacks may feel it's too 'white' to be well-educated, but isn't that like disparaging the Mexican culture as a whole for illegally 'invading' America and 'stealing' our jobs with their cheap labor? Stereotypes and generalizations may contain truth, but unless we know what it's really like to walk in someone else's shoes, the 'truth' isn't always what it may first appear to be...

Best of luck to you and your worthy, political endeavors!

[Daffy Duck]

If you want to become a congressman, become a celebrity.

Seriously.

[siryessir08]

Brutha- None of my professors have ever been elected officials. That doesn't mean they have nothing of value to offer. Before stepping into the political arena, I would be much better prepared if I have extensive knowledge of the legislative branch, among many other things. I need to know how to run a campaign and how to secure funding. I need to know about how to use the media to my advantage. I need to know how to prepare a good speech. The list can go on, and all those things are covered in the major.

On top of that, many citizens wouldn't consider a candidate who doesn't have a degree.


Daffy Duck- Being a celebrity is also a way to become a politician, but it doesn't happen often, and I would have to become famous by a means that would probably prove to be much more difficult.


Cheshire Cat- Good comment. The black culture comment contains some amount of truth, but certainly not the whole truth. It's certainly important not to stereotype, and I was using a broad generalization about urban black culture as a whole being a problem in itself (would you argue, though, that black culture in America today isn't, in fact, hurting African Americans?). I didn't feel like thinking out a perfect example, because I think we probably already understand the basic idea of what I'm saying.

[Cheshire Cat]

I asked a friend of mine who happens to be half African-American and half Caucasian about your question regarding black culture, and she agrees that this sort of attitude within the community does hurt African-Americans. However, she also made the point that perhaps it's not so much African-Americans undervaluing education as much as overvaluing the necessity of choosing the quickest way out of poverty: athletics and music. Since the post-slavery era, sports and song represented the 2 major areas where blacks could be more easily accepted into and admired for so it became natural for that past to carry its seeds into the present.

[Grindin]

I think your gonna have to be dishonest to get across some honesty.

^The reason politicians are considered nuts.

[Susanna77]

Regardless of the country we live in we seem to be governed by people who are in government just to serve themselves, not the people who elected them.

I turned on the news this morning and Sky News was talking about elitism and how it was stoping people with real talent to get top jobs. These things make my heart sink because I often thought this was the case in poorer societies but in Britain as well? Come on!!!

In my country nepotism is still a big issue. Or you look at Italy's prime-minister and he distributes jobs to good-looking women. And look at all the MP's expenses in the UK as well.

I don't agree with all Obama does or talks about but I do think he's far better than the rest and we need more inspiring people to lead us.

[Cheshire Cat]

Is dishonesty such a bad thing if we get good results? I think 'good' politicians know when to not be completely truthful in order to achieve their desired goals versus those politicians who outright lie just to serve themselves. It's not possible to please everybody since there'll always be someone or some group who will end up disappointed or dissatisfied over something. I believe Obama is more honest than most politicians, and time will tell if his hopeful rhetoric can lead to stronger support and more effective actions. I sincerely wish him the best of luck because he's going to need all the help he can get.

[Brutha]

That doesn't mean they have nothing of value to offer. Before stepping into the political arena, I would be much better prepared if I have extensive knowledge of the legislative branch

What do you mean with "extensive knowledge" of the legislative branch?
Congress makes laws, sometimes elected the presidents follows those laws and sometimes he doens't. Whether he can get away with not following laws depends on the public debate and not on what Aristotle or Roussau wrote years ago.
In some sense you might even know less about how the legislative branch works after college because you learn models about how it should work and will mainly be able to see reality in those models and be less able to pick up how realpolitik works.

I need to know how to run a campaign and how to secure funding.

Has one of your professors run a campain before?

I need to know about how to use the media to my advantage.

How much experience do you professors have with using the media to their advantage?
Now I don't completely understand how US politics works on the level of an individual congressman but I know how the game works in Germany.

Join a party. Do something. Get experience.
If you actually show that you are a competent guy others in the party will notice.

African-Americans undervaluing education as much as overvaluing the necessity of choosing the quickest way out of poverty: athletics and music.

It isn't. The amount of jobs in the field of athletics and music is tiny.

And look at all the MP's expenses in the UK as well.

Even when you think that the shouldn't have spent that money that way that doesn't mean that they became MPs for that money.

If you are a new congressman and there a certain amount of money that you get each year as long as you provide recipts you ask your fellow congressman what type of things they deduct and then copy their behavior.
It a bit embarrasing but that's how humans work.

But back to honesty.
If you are in a role and say something than the meaning of your words changes because you are in that role.
It has a different meaning when Obama says that General Motors is immoral than when an average Joe says the same thing.
When Obama says something like that on public television the stockprice of GM might drop.

You don't choose the meaning that words have but the context of your role and of the general enviroment determines the meaning of words.
Saying that black culture is bad as a white politican that happens to represent people has a certain meaning.
A black politican can say the same thing without getting into trouble because his words have a different meaning.

If you want to say something you choose the meaning you want to convey and afterwards figure out the words you need to say, not the other way around.

[siryessir08]

Brutha- Congress makes laws. It's not that simple though. The process itself needs to be understood. I'm not looking for theory, I'm looking to learn what actually needs to be done.

Regardless, I can learn these things without a degree, but the public would have to take my word for it.

Competence alone doesn't get a person elected. Look at George Bush.

My professors don't need personal experience to have at least a pretty good understanding of things, and knowing theory is better than knowing nothing at all in my opinion. Sure, it would be nice if they did have personal experience, but not very many ex-politicians are willing to mentor me.

"If you want to say something you choose the meaning you want to convey and afterwards figure out the words you need to say, not the other way around." -----That is a good point. It's just unfortunate that you have to talk to the public like they are children.

Cheshire Cat- ...can dishonesty be a good thing? I can't imagine being in Obama's shoes. He can never say what he really thinks, unfortunately he won't get reelected if he did. Maybe he'll become more bold in his second term.

[ssandra]

There has been a recent speech by Obama about the situation of the black people in the US.

In short (i´ve tried to find it, but i can´t) it went something like this:

Blacks have had it difficult, have been discriminated against, bla bla bla very difficult (can´t really remember)

But! Everybody has the tools to make their own future success, moms and dads need to stay home and make sure their kids do homework. Work hard and you will be successfull

This I think is a good example (if I can find it I will paste the link, maybe anybody else has it?) of how you can say the truth without hurting anybody.

Saying "blacks are not doing their schoolwork and therefor they are not successfull" or "In this (great) country everybody has the same opportunities as anybody else. I will make sure of this. If you take the chances that are being given to you, put in your own work, you too! can make it!! This is the reason there are black doctors, black lawers, and even black presidents!(big applause...)"

Basically you are saying the same thing (you have to work to be successfull) but you are not excluding anybody nor does anybody get the feeling that you call them lazy.

ow and if you need anybody to write your speeches for you, you know where to find me

[Andrew Brunelle]

I would have to say that in today's society, there could not be an honest politician because honesty is just too shocking for a general public that has been lied to for so long. If the world were to change to a place of truth, then maybe you'd have a shot, but until then, you should aspire to something more enlightened.

[Brutha]

My professors don't need personal experience to have at least a pretty good understanding of things,

How do you know that they have a pretty good understanding of things?

Brutha- Congress makes laws. It's not that simple though. The process itself needs to be understood. I'm not looking for theory, I'm looking to learn what actually needs to be done.

The difficult thing about the process are the informal rules about negotening and making compromises.
It's not the formal rules.

Competence alone doesn't get a person elected. Look at George Bush.

George Bush is a good example of someone who learned poltics from people who actually know how to do politics like his father instead of university professors.
As a result he's successful, oh wonder.

Bush is a good example that shows that learning about the informal things instead of formel rules is more important.

Basically you are saying the same thing (you have to work to be successfull) but you are not excluding anybody nor does anybody get the feeling that you call them lazy.

Obama is black and therefore he can say things like that.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Brutha

It's not the formal rules.

Yup, the formal rules are easy. They would probably be something like one-fifth of one subject taken in one semester of one academic year.

You could probably look it up yourself in a book from the public library.

[Cheshire Cat]

Originally Posted by siryessir08

Cheshire Cat- ...can dishonesty be a good thing? I can't imagine being in Obama's shoes. He can never say what he really thinks, unfortunately he won't get reelected if he did. Maybe he'll become more bold in his second term.

I'd rather not say that dishonesty is a good thing because I personally prefer the truth no matter how hard it may be to hear. I just don't see it as always a bad thing. Dishonesty has its place in the real world and sometimes, it's necessary to be less than completely truthful. Any politician who says the 'wrong' things likely won't get re-elected. Obama has to be careful during his first term, especially when it comes to securing public trust when the economy is in such bad shape and the international arena is treading on delicate eggshells. He seems to be making reasonable strides with respect to the mess he's inherited, and it'll be interesting to see how his policies and rhetoric evolve as he succeeds or fails in his goals.

[Andyee]

honesty is like medicaments - it is important but in fair dosages.

[siryessir08]

I think I've decided.

I will disregard honesty...and all of my values...to do what it takes to get elected.

Then I will embrace my values once again.

I mean, I really, truly only have one goal out of being a congressman, and I don't care if I don't find myself re-elected.

I want to smoke a joint on the floor of congress while giving a pro-marijuana speech, and eat the roach.

[sheffy4]

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but keep in mind that you don't have to be an elected official to have a political influence. Lots of social and political movements have been lead by "regular" people who were passionate about something, and kept working at it until things started to change.

[Grey]

Watch that Yes, that's how empires are made - necessary evil takes over, and when it comes to it, and you cannot tell now, will you want to change back to lightworking?

[Brutha]

Watch that Yes, that's how empires are made - necessary evil takes over, and when it comes to it, and you cannot tell now, will you want to change back to lightworking?

Acutally you can, and the answer is clearly "No".
Habits like valuing honesty just don't survive years of being dishonest.

[Talkofthatown919]

after watching v for vendetta it opened my eyes up to how governments really are. So what if its a movie that stuff really does happen. I believe once people truly get to know your real character honesty is going to win over anything. Just as people didn't believe that obama was going to do what he said and many others as well.

[Brutha]

Just as people didn't believe that obama was going to do what he said and many others as well.

And he didn't.
He switched to embracing imprisioning people without trials and to not honoring the geneva convention.