How truthful to your principles would you be?

[bluedragon]

I am asking especially those of you who live your lives by the principles of peace, tolerance, honesty and freedom. How do you manage to live by those principles in real life, especially in complex situations. I am very curious about how YOU think about this, because I am having increasing doubts about my own ability to adequately function (and survive) in a complex situation for more than... a few days at best , given the fact that I want to live by the above principles.

In SOME complex situations, most people aren't even interested in following those principles, and many issues could arise that would require me to take a stand immediately, and possibly loose everything in the process (my job, my acceptance in society, my life etc). I don't know how I would be able to contribute to most complex corporations, political organizations or military confrontations as long as I abide by the principles or peace, honesty and freedom. How would you manage?

Corporate environment

Would you work in a job where you would be required to lie from time to time?
Would you work for a pharmaceutical company knowing that ONE of their products actually had more negative effects, and the management knew it? If not, what exactly would you do? Would you quit right away, regardless of the effect of this decision on your career and life?

Would you work for a company that tortures animals somewhere along the production chain?
If in a job you loved, you were given ONE assignment that required you to harm or deceive someone, in any way, would you do it? Or would you refuse, even if that would get you fired?

Politics

Would you ever do something you considered wrong, because you believed that the positive effects would outweigh the damage? Would you condone lying, incarceration of innocent people, torture, killings, if you were absolutely convinced that from a rational, political point of view, your actions would be absolutely necessary for the greater good?

How would you handle not being able to understand how your decisions or actions will affect a group of people or the country as a whole?
Would you feel comfortable deciding the DEGREE to which individual freedom should be sacrificed for security?

War

Would you accept to be a soldier if your country attacked another? How about if it was under attack? Would you kill enemy soldiers who you knew were just following orders? If not, would you just let yourself be killed or sentenced to jail for that, with no hesitation?

What would you do as a political leader? Would you condone war for any reasons? If not, what would you do?

Personal life

How would you feel about paying your taxes if there were some policies that you didn't agree with? How is integrity compatible with supporting a government that (among many positive things), also condones some negative ones, such as a war in some part of the globe? This applies only if you are in fact totally opposed to war.

What if some sort of authority wrongfully denied you your freedom, in a way you would consider truly wrong? Would you allow someone else to keep you captive and lead you around, or would you be ready to fight against anyone who imposes domination and torture upon you? What if your actual captors were just following orders from superiors?
If someone you cared about was in this situation, would you try (and risk) anything in order to save them?

[Stevie B]

You need to pull out a balance scale and figure out what is more important. For instance, if a friend's girlfriend invites you out to a party and at the party you friend's girlfriend was being hit on heavily (Think of it as more then a 'hi'). What do you tell your friend after the party?

To answer you have to look at the consequences at what will happen after. If I do nothing, then I am taking the side of the cheater, as the cheater wants nobody to know. If I do something, I take the side of my friend.

Now who's side would you take? For me, I'd back up my friend in a heart beat regardless of the negative things that will take place because I am on his side. The negative feeling of betraying my friend would have over taken me and I'm not sure we'd be friends. Since I wanted to be his friend, I told him.

So imagine the result that will happen and try to feel if it is something that I'd want.

[ssandra]

Thisis very interesting. I often think about these situations and discuss them with whomever wants to listen to my ramblings...

I try to live by my principles but some things you will just not know until you are actually in this situation.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Corporate environment

Would you work in a job where you would be required to lie from time to time?

Depends on the lie. (lying isn´t always bad according to my principles, only if you are hurting somebody else on purpose...)

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Would you work for a pharmaceutical company knowing that ONE of their products actually had more negative effects, and the management knew it?

I would work if it was written clearly in the product description so patients can make informed decisions. I would report them to the autorities if they would lie about it.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Would you work for a company that tortures animals somewhere along the production chain?

I would quit right away! But... if i would have 5 children and no other means of feeding them, i am not sure. I guess my children would come first although i would look for another job.
If it would just be about my children having a nice holiday and nike shoes, i would also quit right away.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

If in a job you loved, you were given ONE assignment that required you to harm or deceive someone, in any way, would you do it? Or would you refuse, even if that would get you fired?

Harm someone, no. Lying again only if it would not harm the other person.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

War

Would you accept to be a soldier if your country attacked another? How about if it was under attack? Would you kill enemy soldiers who you knew were just following orders? If not, would you just let yourself be killed or sentenced to jail for that, with no hesitation?

No, no, no and no again. I can only hope to be as strong if it would ever become reality.

But, i would use whatever means needed to protect my family.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Thisis very interesting. I often think about these situations and discuss them with whomever wants to listen to my ramblings...

Thanks for the complex reply. I want to listen to anyone's ramblings about this.

About lying - the way I see it, when you tell a lie because you believe it is the best thing to do in a specific situation - then you are perpetuating the need for lying. If everyone would tell the truth, then things would need to arrange themselves in such a way that telling the truth would be acceptable. If people believe that in a certain situation lying is the only intelligent choice, they perpetuate the system that requires them to lie.

For example, I worked in one of the best headhunting firms, in the Romanian office, and we had to call candidates for various management-level positions and offer them a similar job in another company, or offer them a superior position. That was a good thing for the candidates, cause this is how they could advance their career. When a very important company like Phillips or Renault wants to select a CEO or a country manager, they don't put ads on e-jobs. They hire a headhunting company to select the best possible candidates from wherever they know best.

But the thing is, in order to get to actually talk to those people, we had to get past their secretaries, and it was imperative that NOBODY else except the candidates themselves knew why we were calling. So we had to invent all kinds of excuses, such as to say that we worked for a magazine and we were making a poll or that we were a very old friend of the manager or a high school buddy and we just got back from abroad and we lost their phone number, etc. 80% of the times, the secretaries would refuse to give us any information, and my colleagues needed to resort to all kinds of subterfuges in order to get to find out the phone numbers of those candidates, and only then, they could tell the truth to those candidates. They were actually very curious how we found them out, and we always told them only that "we have our methods"

Now, I would not be able to do this kind of job. I would not accept to lie, and therefore, I would not be able to be in that job, no matter how important it was for me. I realize that there is a reason for the secrecy, but this is only because there is envy among people in a firm, and that's we couldn't tell anybody why we wanted to talk to the manager, when we actually wanted to offer them a career opportunity. If we couldn't find out his cell number or at least, get him on the horn, we usually gave up on that candidate, as long as we had sufficient others to select a worthy one and invite him to the interview. If everybody in the headhunting industry refused to lie, then maybe the managers would instruct their secretaries to always give their number to a headhunter. Or they could instruct their secretaries to always tell them who called. Then we could just tell the secretaries our name and the manager would call us back.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Thanks for the complex reply. I want to listen to anyone's ramblings about this.

About lying - the way I see it, when you tell a lie
because you believe it is the best thing to do in a specific situation -
then you are perpetuating the need for lying.

I realize that there is a reason for the secrecy

If everyone would tell the truth, then things would need to arrange themselves
in such a way that telling the truth would be acceptable.

The problem is, that the world more often, than not,
finds it $more profitable, & thus prefers telling lies$.
For example,
let me ask you some related "lie/Truth" questions:
ok,
as I have for 30 years in almost every medical field, how would you personally function there?

Would you be willing to sell your soul, for a job
in any given medical establishment? - example:
abortions, ect, dis-connecting life-support, etc.

When a patient asks about:
1. radiation-poisoning, what would you tell them?
2. when they want to keep them, organs removed?
3. chemo: how would you respond?

What kinds of jobs, in that huge conglomeration could you live with,
that congruently & honestly
Allow you making Positive, Constructive...differences in someone else's life...

[bluedragon]

Hey, I asked first!

Anyway, about chemo, don't even get me started - I can think of no worse approach to a disease, given the alternatives such as Qigong and TCM.
That is why I would not be a doctor.

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Hey, I asked first!

Anyway, about chemo, don't even get me started -
I can think of no worse approach to a disease,
given the alternatives such as Qigong and TCM.
That is why I would not be a doctor.

Hey, you asked for feedback, input, & contribution
The least you can do, is also participate in this...
and
Medical-doctors will always be needed! for true Emergencies like achi-dents, crimes including wars, natural disasters, etc.

ok, and not a disease, "cancering" is a process... which you heal... do you also know how?

[themaster]

Wow, so many questions.. alright I'll give it a go..

Would you work in a job where you would be required to lie from time to time?
Nope, I once refused to lie to someone my boss told me too.. and by this I'm not making a judgment (maybe at the time.. long ago) I just would work a job I prefer.. can't see how lying on a daily basis or once in a while benefits me at all..

Would you work for a pharmaceutical company knowing that ONE of their products actually had more negative effects, and the management knew it? Yes, I would not judge them as negative.. if I wanted to work there I would.. if I didn't I wouldn't

If not, what exactly would you do? Would you quit right away, regardless of the effect of this decision on your career and life?
I just stated the above.. "no judgment" if I were in said situation.. I would make a decision based on what I wanted only.. not on others judgments..

Would you work for a company that tortures animals somewhere along the production chain?
Hell, yes.. I make no judgments once again.. (these questions are getting rhetorical)

If in a job you loved, you were given ONE assignment that required you to harm or deceive someone, in any way, would you do it? Or would you refuse, even if that would get you fired?
The answer is depends.. I can't say absolutely what I would do, I would just be myself and in being myself I would not likely end up in such a silly quandary..

I would first start of a place of "no judgment" though.. if you have to fire someone they usually take that as "negative" straight off.. there is no difference between this idea and the words "harm or deceive someone"

(okay here ends my elaborate answers.. your questions are all about good and evil or judgment.. not that fun of a topic if you’re going to 'droll' on about it)

Politics

Would you ever do something you considered wrong, because you believed that the positive effects would outweigh the damage?
Yes, maybe

Would you condone lying, incarceration of innocent people, torture, killings, if you were absolutely convinced that from a rational, political point of view, your actions would be absolutely necessary for the greater good?
I don't believe in "greater good" crap.. Yes, maybe

How would you handle not being able to understand how your decisions or actions will affect a group of people or the country as a whole?
Why must I understand?

Would you feel comfortable deciding the DEGREE to which individual freedom should be sacrificed for security?
No, I wouldn't.. I don't judge nor try to control others..

War

Would you accept to be a soldier if your country attacked another?
No and maybe

How about if it was under attack?
No and maybe

Would you kill enemy soldiers who you knew were just following orders?
No and maybe..

If not, would you just let yourself be killed or sentenced to jail for that, with no hesitation?
Yes and maybe..

What would you do as a political leader?
Lead by the power of example..

Would you condone war for any reasons? If not, what would you do?
No, not spend time answering questioner’s that seem silly, obviously

Personal life

How would you feel about paying your taxes if there were some policies that you didn't agree with?
I don't pay taxes and there are many policies I don't agree with and??

How is integrity compatible with supporting a government that (among many positive things), also condones some negative ones, such as a war in some part of the globe? This applies only if you are in fact totally opposed to war.
I am not opposed to war.. so it doesn't factor ehh?
I don't push against things.. aka make them stronger.. for now war is perfectly acceptable..

What if some sort of authority wrongfully denied you your freedom, in a way you would consider truly wrong?
Jee.. this happens every day.. haven't you see the Guantanamo stuff or other things going on..

Would you allow someone else to keep you captive and lead you around, or would you be ready to fight against anyone who imposes domination and torture upon you?
The answer = depends..

What if your actual captors were just following orders from superiors?
So?

If someone you cared about was in this situation, would you try (and risk) anything in order to save them?
depends..

Yah, know having tried to answer every single question.. I think the problem is this idea..

How truthful to your principles would you be?

You see your applying that the principles you outlined above are very noble and everyone has them.. you are obviously wrong.. I think also your scenario's are just kind of boring/passé~

This is the same kind of document wolfwitz/cheney/rumsfield and other bush lackey's would have loved.. it is the same spoon fed crap they've been throwing out since 2001 to do what they wanted.. and yes I'm making a judgment about external sources and then I'm letting go

Here's one they spoon-fed out.. a few years ago.. "if there was a nuclear bomb.. would you torture a terrorist?" obviously I would.. "cause I think the action universe is what it's all about" G.W.B. my answer.. "not interested"

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by themaster

"if there was a nuclear bomb.. would you torture a terrorist?"

This would be a difficult one (if you are against torture like i am). Same up there with how many people would you sacrifice to save how many others...

Would you sacrifice 1 to rescue 10? 5 on 5? what if it is about saving children, or sacrificing old people?

Where do you get to judge who lives and who dies? But if you do not choose,people will die as well, and you are responsable for that choice...

[themaster]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Where do you get to judge who lives and who dies? But if you do not choose,people will die as well, and you are responsable for that choice...

That is if you believe it's a action based universe.. however that is your choice.. you are responsible for everything you create in your reality whether 1 or a billion people die makes no difference.. but if you want to associate that idea with that of guilt/lack/negative then that is from my perspective a good waste of life/time/experience when you could be something more fun/positive/joyful

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

About lying - the way I see it, when you tell a lie because you believe it is the best thing to do in a specific situation - then you are perpetuating the need for lying. If everyone would tell the truth, then things would need to arrange themselves in such a way that telling the truth would be acceptable. If people believe that in a certain situation lying is the only intelligent choice, they perpetuate the system that requires them to lie.

You're harboring Jews in Nazi Germany. A soldier knocks on your door and asks whether there are any Jews in your home. Telling the truth means innocent people die. What are you going to do?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by themaster

That is if you believe it's a action based universe.. however that is your choice.. you are responsible for everything you create in your reality whether 1 or a billion people die makes no difference.. but if you want to associate that idea with that of guilt/lack/negative then that is from my perspective a good waste of life/time/experience when you could be something more fun/positive/joyful

I´m sorry, but i don´t understand a thing of what you wrote here...

These are just hypothetical situations, not real life.

For the sake of argument, I would say that my actions have consequences for other people, and the other way around.

And even if this is my reality (or yours, who knows...) the question is still valid.

if you had to choose, what would you choose??

[Brutha]

If everybody in the headhunting industry refused to lie, then maybe the managers would instruct their secretaries to always give their number to a headhunter. Or they could instruct their secretaries to always tell them who called. Then we could just tell the secretaries our name and the manager would call us back.

Secretaries exist because managers don't have the time to deal with everybody who called.

I don't have moral problems with lying in some cases. When it comes to moral questions and I want to make decisions according to priciples I use Robert Pirsigs Metaphsics of Quality or Utiliarism.

Here's one they spoon-fed out.. a few years ago.. "if there was a nuclear bomb.. would you torture a terrorist?" obviously I would..

That question assumes that it's an effective idea to torture a terroist in such a sitution.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by ssandra

if you had to choose, what would you choose??

I would choose not to choose.. that is my preference.. however under the 'right' conditions.. whichever choice would be fine by me..

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by themaster

I would choose not to choose.. that is my preference..

choosing not to choose is a choice...

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by ssandra

choosing not to choose is a choice...

Mmmh! Cant agree more!

[vMike]

Originally Posted by Brutha

That question assumes that it's an effective idea to torture a terroist in such a sitution.

You'd usually want to know where the bomb is, or get codes to disarm it. And yes torture does work. The real problem is you might have the wrong guy, but that's another question..

I think aligning yourself with the principles of truth and peace literally at all times is merely foolish and naive.
Different situations require a different response, which is why you have to use your intelligence to decide.

The principles should guide your life, help build your character and assist in making the important life decisions, but they can't be used to blindly follow in all situations.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

Hey, you asked for feedback, input, & contribution
The least you can do, is also participate in this...

The thing is, with my limited understanding at this point, I would have no choice but to refuse to do anything that would involve causing harm or that would be counter-productive (an action that would be productive for the firm but counter-productive if taking into account the customers as well as the firm.

But after doing this, I would be fired, so I can see no way for me to thrive in such an environment. What if even the most integrity and honesty-driven firm would at least at ONE point, ask me to do such an action? That would mean I would have nowhere to work. Fortunately, I don't think this is the case, as I can imagine many firms that don't ask their employees to do such things, but I am looking for a higher understanding of the situation, and how to gain more versatility while not compromising the principles I choose to honor.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by themaster

(these questions are getting rhetorical)

I fail to understand why you chose to answer ALL of them? I provided all those questions because those are the questions that trouble ME. I am however open to people telling me whatever they believe is useful. If the questions don't apply to you, then obviously there is no point in saying that they don't apply to you.

Originally Posted by themaster

You see your applying that the principles you outlined above are very noble and everyone has them.. you are obviously wrong.. I think also your scenario's are just kind of boring/passé~

I am neither "applying that", nor "implying that". The thread was "How truthful would you be to YOUR principles", and was aimed especially at people whose own principles are similar to mine.

You obviously don't choose to live by the same principles as I do, therefore you are not likely to be able to teach me how to live by them. I honor your principles and make no judgment about them either.

In my view, principles are all about practical effectiveness, not right and wrong. I believe that by holding on to certain principles and values, I am more effective and stronger. That is why compromising a principle even in only ONE situation is not justifyiable for be, even if I could have a significant gain by doing that. But I don't care only about myself, and therefore personal gain is irrelevant, if it compromises what I (personally) believe is best for humanity as a whole. That is why I find it impractical to harm another in order to gain a benefit for myself, or to deceive a group of people (customers) for the benefit of another group (a business). Even if this business will fire me for not doing this. My personal jeopardy is insignificant in the larger scale. However, since I believe that as an individual, I can contribute very much to the larger good, I am interested in preserving myself and to maintain a certain degree of material wealth to facilitate my interactions, therefore I wish to find out how to effectively manage the risks of holding on tight to principles and values in a world where many people don't understand this.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by YourHumbleNarrator

You're harboring Jews in Nazi Germany. A soldier knocks on your door and asks whether there are any Jews in your home. Telling the truth means innocent people die. What are you going to do?

You are providing me with more and more questions which I find myslef unprepared to answer. I need your guidance ! But I'll give it a try.

In this case, it seems that the Nazis have modified the meaning of the English (or German) language. If I say "I cannot tell you that", they will immediately understand that THERE ARE jews, and they will come and kill them. Therefore, it is impossible not to answer "YES" without lying. Answering NO (and lying), is the only way I can avoid answering yes, cause any other diversion would be interpreted as an yes. I would probably answer no, and if I could, kill all the Nazis afterward.

On the other hand, as I said, lying perpetuates the need for lying. If everybody would refuse to lie to save the jews, then the jews would need to become better warriors to defend themselves. They would most likely fail and die, but still, lying to protect them only justifies the fact that they are not strong enough to protect themselves, and therefore (maybe) weakens them in this way.
telling that "there are no jews here" is EQUIVALENT to saying "You will not kill the jews that are here". Only that, the later would obviously not be successful, therefore I would choose the first phrase.

But in a situation where there is freedom of speech, I would tell the truth.

OK, now it is YOUR turn.

Originally Posted by vMike

I think aligning yourself with the principles of truth and peace literally at all times is merely foolish and naive.

It seems to work for Gandhi in a very practical way.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I fail to understand why you chose to answer ALL of them? I provided all those questions because those are the questions that trouble ME.

Why do they trouble you?

Do you hide under your bed everyday.. worried about that random serial killer/rapist breaking in your house/apartment/homeless shelter??

Why are things that are outside of you and NOT of your EXPERIENCE your fixation??

Let me take a guess.. you've rarely if ever had to even test these principals of yours..

Here's my point.. you are making a complicated mess of something that can really be boiled down to nothing.. the best way to go through life is to "kickback, not judge and don't get involved in things that are not about you in the first place.." (well in a way they are.. but it's best to take neutral and positive experiences/perspectives from it)

I'm sorry if you don't like my highly immoralized answers.. but I don't see a lot of takers to your questions either.. if you find it fun to roll around in these scenario's that's fine.. but if you have a obsession with checking your morals against millions of probable reality scenarios.. I would call that a unhealthy way to live life.. welcome to the planet of un-health nuts!

[bluedragon]

I'm sorry if you don't like my highly immoralized answers..

I'm sorry I am not expressing myself clearly. I like immorality - I don't believe in morals. I don't believe it is "better" to do good that it is to do evil. But I choose to do good because I want to create a certain effect in the world.

I neither like or dislike your answers - it's your way of living. But I don't think it would be wise to give up on principles and values before I experiment with them. I want to see how empowering principles can be, and I'm looking for people who do choose to hold on to principles, to learn more about how they understand those principles and how they apply them to real life. But at the same time, I also have great sympathy for someone who does everything to help himself, and who manipulates others and deceives them in a very smart way - a charming villain, a clever thief, etc. Of course, I would try to avoid letting him get his hands on me , but I wouldn't hate him if he did.

I however want to align myself with love and joy and honesty and cooperation. It is not because I believe in Christian morality - I'm a Taoist - I believe everything is connected, and we are all part of the same energy. But I chose to align myself with certain principles because I believe it is effective. I believe it is an empowering way to live, in a very practical way. At least, that is how I understand what people such as Steve, Steven Covey mean when they talk about principles and values. Do you understand principles in a different way? Can you sometimes be aligned with a principle and sometimes "lay back" and neglect it? Do you still remain empowered if you do that?

----

My questions are not hypothetical at all. I do want to join a humanitarian organization. If I know that I am determined not to lie under any circumstances, I should tell them. Otherwise they may ask me a simple thing thing that I will refuse to do, and they will feel betrayed. By joining an organization or a firm, you make an implied promise to serve that firm and to do what your superiors tell you to. They count on you. What if they ask me a simple thing such as to lie on the phone and say that a manager is not in the office when he actually is, or something like that. I can really compromise them and their image if I lie. The may unknowingly put their confidence in the fact that I will tell a small lie, and then, if I refuse, they will have nowhere to go and they will be exposed. I would be treading a fine line with this kind of attitude, so I am hoping to find more clarity. Do you think someone who is aligned with truth would like in such situations? Would you, Steve, supposing you would ever get a job?

[Brutha]

You'd usually want to know where the bomb is, or get codes to disarm it. And yes torture does work. The real problem is you might have the wrong guy, but that's another question.

Torture doesn't work like shown on 24. And no, you don't need codes to disarm nuclear weapons. If you damage a nuclear bomb even a bit there's no real nuclear explosion.

People often take days before they break. That time is enough to bring an atomic bomb to another place or even detonate it.
You also get a lot of false evidence because the terrorist will tell you a lot of places where he planted the bomb that he just made up. That wastes resources of the law inforcement in question that doesn't check as much other evidence as they should.
Lastly, the human brain doesn't really work well when it comes to remembering stuff when the whole body is completely down and stressed.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

My questions are not hypothetical at all. I do want to join a humanitarian organization. If I know that I am determined not to lie under any circumstances, I should tell them. Otherwise they may ask me a simple thing thing that I will refuse to do, and they will feel betrayed. By joining an organization or a firm, you make an implied promise to serve that firm and to do what your superiors tell you to. They count on you. What if they ask me a simple thing such as to lie on the phone and say that a manager is not in the office when he actually is, or something like that. I can really compromise them and their image if I lie. The may unknowingly put their confidence in the fact that I will tell a small lie, and then, if I refuse, they will have nowhere to go and they will be exposed. I would be treading a fine line with this kind of attitude, so I am hoping to find more clarity. Do you think someone who is aligned with truth would like in such situations? Would you, Steve, supposing you would ever get a job?

Well, I'm glad you see a positive perspective in being "immoral"

Here's the thing.. this is a LOA forum.. so I'm going to talk about LOA.. if you believe or see what I see.. you might know you create your own reality.. if you know that then in a way.. you know that you "create" a job and you create the circumstances in that job.. so if that's the case.. then..

Then you know that you can create the ability to
- not lie
- not have situations that you do not prefer

And you should also know there.. is no problem at all sometimes telling people what they want to hear.. if they insist you
- put that draft card in that box
- Sign their petition or else
- Pretend to see things their way..

Then just give them what they want.. pushy people are a-okay to be fed White lies.. and it's like a insistence to interact with them..

I dish out White lies when insisted upon by my interactions with others.. my White lie information comes from a interesting abraham question

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I am asking especially those of you who live your lives by the principles of peace, tolerance, honesty and freedom. How do you manage to live by those principles in real life, especially in complex situations. I am very curious about how YOU think about this, because I am having increasing doubts about my own ability to adequately function (and survive) in a complex situation for more than... a few days at best , given the fact that I want to live by the above principles.

I'd like to consider myself virtuous. At the very least, as much as I'm reasonably able to given the constraints of my own current personal growth, I do my best to consider a holistic perspective--sort of like oneness.

For a long time I thought I was doing pretty well, but as I started having new experiences, I found my values and commitment to them was tested.

To make a long story short, I found there were no right or wrong answers... nothing is as black and white as it seems. But you sure can suffer a lot trying to find such answers.

Lately I've been realising that when it comes to things like values, the reason I have them is because, through the (virtuous) acts they inspire, they help me to feel good. E.g. It feels good to me to be kind... to care. It feels good to be honest and truthful. It feels good to consider other people (in fact, that's one of the reasons I strive to be virtuous... I guess that's the oneness perspective coming into play).

What I started to notice was that, in essence, I was taking action (aligning with different values by taking actions that resonate with them) to feel better. And for a long time that worked. Recently it seems reality has said "sorry... it's time to upgrade your model; this old one doesn't work anymore."

Recently, more than ever, I've been shown (or at least, seeing) that action is a poor supplement for feeling really good. For a lot of my life I've relied on certain conditions to feel good, and I can see how complicated life would have to become for me if I maintained that. It would be a constant struggle--one I'd prefer not to engage in.

So instead of aligning with my values--taking action--in order to feel good, these days I'm deciding to feel good simply because so much relief comes from it. I'm probably also doing it because I hope that in my feeling better, the law of attraction will respond and bring situations that match that, but if I'm not careful, even feeling good to impact manifestations is kind of like using action to feel better (and as such, it's sort of like pushing against a situation and trying to change it through action).

This is a new way of being for me. I've never really made feeling good for the sole reason that it feels good my #1 priority. In the past I'd probably have said such a thing is a bit foolish--maybe about denial. But these days, I'm more realistic, I think. And so instead of only endevouring to live virtuously, I'm also doing my best to focusing on feeling good.

I notice when I feel good, it's like I become more effective. Ideas flow. I'm kinder to people. I'm more aware, and I acknowledge subtle things more (including things about other people, which is nice).

When I don't feel good, I feel like my capacity to do things is limited. Actions I take seem like a struggle. It just feels like, on some level, I'm trying to go against the current. For me, it's so much easier to stop fighting (i.e. doing whatever it is that's making me feel not-so-good) and to relax... to do what I can to start feeling good again.

A while ago I explored desire in an attempt to figure out what our primary motivation is. It was strange to discover at the time, but I found that the reason any of us really do anything is because, on some level, it makes us feel better in doing it. That feeling of may be a small blip of relief, or it might be a surging wave of positivity, but either way, it does indeed seem that feeling good is what motivates us. I'm not saying that it's sort of like a "seek pleasure, avoid pain model," but more of a "we do things, but deep down, we do all of those things to feel better." Having pleasure as your #1 motivation would probably begin to start feeling bad after a while, but in my experience and observations, doing things (whether it be thinking or taking action) to feel better doesn't seem to cap out. It seems to always lead you to (or maintain) a state of feeling good (at least, I hope it does. I'm all out of ideas if that approach doesn't work ).

* * *

So I guess my point is "I understand virtue. I've done my best to honour my values. For me, it hasn't been enough. Values are important to me and I certainly honour them, but at the moment, I'm experimenting with feeling good."

I'll still be honest. I'll still be kind. Most of all, I'll still be authentic (where honesty and kindness kind of flow naturally). But the reason I do them is not just because I like the results of actions aligned with those things, but because it feels good. Lucky for me, I have a strong desire to be honest, kind, and authentic, so I don't ever imagine doing the opposite would feel good to me. (... so alas, you can't pose me the "but what if it didn't feel good to be authentic?" question. And besides, answering that question doesn't feel good to me. )

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

My questions are not hypothetical at all. I do want to join a humanitarian organization. If I know that I am determined not to lie under any circumstances, I should tell them. Otherwise they may ask me a simple thing thing that I will refuse to do, and they will feel betrayed. By joining an organization or a firm, you make an implied promise to serve that firm and to do what your superiors tell you to. They count on you. What if they ask me a simple thing such as to lie on the phone and say that a manager is not in the office when he actually is, or something like that. I can really compromise them and their image if I lie. The may unknowingly put their confidence in the fact that I will tell a small lie, and then, if I refuse, they will have nowhere to go and they will be exposed. I would be treading a fine line with this kind of attitude, so I am hoping to find more clarity. Do you think someone who is aligned with truth would like in such situations? Would you, Steve, supposing you would ever get a job?

It's situations like this where I find virtues start to fall apart a bit.

It's very hard to know exactly what you're entering into all the time. I think it becomes quite a struggle to try to consider and maintain your standards, and in doing so, make sure you're maintaining the standards (i.e. values) of everyone else you come into contact to. And what about the people you come into contact to through your direct influence? How do you even deal wit that, if at all?

I found that model far too complicated. It was like I was trying to sort out the world. And in doing that, all the while I knew there was potential for me to be wrong... potential for things to fall inside my blind spots (whether visual or mental).

Perhaps my "feel good" approach is a bit of a cop out answer to some, but for me, I seem to be far more effective when I listen to my intuition and focus on my feelings instead of actions.

I guess it helps that I'm fairly intuitive and get insights from (what I'd call) my spirit guides--insights that seem to be a little more preconitive than my prediction abilities seem to be (although I don't separate my predictive abilities from intuition... my logic and doubt would like to, heh... but my experiential side is fine with relaxing into reality and not questioning it so much) and, as such, such insights prove to be very valuable.

I tend to get a bit of resistance from the people around me when it comes to the approach of making it my dominant intent to feel good, kind of like a psychic gets a lot of flack for simply being psychic, but perhaps the thing that produces the best results in my life is listening to my intuition. And if I consider that (what you could call the "objective" results, even though I don't think they're really are objective results) along with the fact that trusting and heeding intuition and paying attention to how you feel tends to feel good (what you could call the subjective results--the subjective benefits), this feeling good stuff seems to make sense.

What's interesting, though, is the diversity that arises from this approach. What feels good to me might not feel good to you. The logical, virtuous part of me still has trouble with that, but when I take the time to listen to my feelings, I feel like I'm more connected to a deeper sense of more holistic wisdom, and on some intuitive level, letting people live seems much better than pushing against what they do, regardless of whether what they do would feel good to me or not.

For me, it also helps to notice that (in my experience) all the people who inspire positive things in the world seem to feel really good while they do it and, at least, put more attention on focusing (and getting others to focus) on some sort of good-feeling vision or way of being than they do on pushing against things.

So I'm not saying this is a model that everyone should adopt, but I am sharing what seems to be working for me in response to your quote which seemed so very relevant considering some of my recent experiences.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by themaster

Well, I'm glad you see a positive perspective in being "immoral"

Here's the thing.. this is a LOA forum.. so I'm going to talk about LOA..

And I am glad that you believe in LOA Cause the thing is, LOA is exactly the reason why I think it's important to stick to a principle. If you do, you will attract more of that. Without LOA, it would be impossible to justify the need to always stick to a principle. If in a certain situation, it was more profitable to go against your principles, that would be the right choice from a "cause and effect" perspective. But from the LOA perspective, if I lie once, I will attract more distrust, ruse and deceit everywhere I go, in every relationship in my life.

If I kill someone because it suits me, and then I hide the body and nobody sees me, from an objective point of view, I can get away with it, but from the LOA point of view, I will attract more murder, violence and death in my life, and therefore, I can never believe that I can gain any advantage by killing someone, cause the downside would outweigh the benefits in almost any situation.

[themaster]

I dunno.. you seem to jabber on about concepts that seem unimportant..

But let me throw this out.. you kill a person, yes?

But after doing so.. you never, ever think about that person again and go on with your life.. how exactly does that attract more murder? violence and death?

I think you are limiting what LOA can do and what you even believe is possible.. I believe anything is possible.. let me repeat ANYTHING

Here is my understanding.. if you get better at LOA or shall we say self empowerment.. you begin to melt away all these judgment and beliefs that are about good and evil.. you in fact come above good and evil.. you realize that either choice doesn't matter your capable of both and if you do shall I call it 'integration' you see more of these acts all over..

[bluedragon]

I already told you I think beyond good and evil, but I WANT to do only good. This is what gives me pleasure, and I think humanity can evolve faster through cooperation. As you can see, my choices are more about pleasure and speed, not about morals. But maybe you cling to the notion that unless someone does BOTH good and evil, he is inferior. I believe everything is possible, as you say, and from all possibilities, I chose to only align myself with cooperation and love, not with murder, stealing and deceit. I do believe that if you act according to the mindset that murder is ok, you will attract more people who will also be ok with killing. I want to attract people who can't even understand what killing means. This is what would delight me. I don't judge anybody. If you look at the "no prisons" thread, you can see I am very much against punishing people, no matter what they've done. At least, when it comes to punishment in the sense of "justice" which I equate with revenge. Someone with a high moral sense would want to see the guilty punished, wouldn't he?

Originally Posted by themaster

I dunno.. you seem to jabber on about concepts that seem unimportant..

Please don't respond to any more things that are unimportant. I don't want to keep you busy.

[Aleksander Krstic]

I can't answer the question since I live by different principles, but I'll try to help you anyway.

and possibly loose everything in the process (my job, my acceptance in society, my life etc).

First of all that's just fear in your head, and I believe most of those things wouldn't happen.

Would you work in a job where you would be required to lie from time to time?

No, since I live by the principle of Truth.

Would you work for a pharmaceutical company knowing that ONE of their products actually had more negative effects, and the management knew it?

Again no, since I believe that it is very important to provide value, which is always in high demand.

If not, what exactly would you do? Would you quit right away, regardless of the effect of this decision on your career and life?

Absolutely not. I'd wait until I'd be ready since it's not smart to take on too big risks.

Would you work for a company that tortures animals somewhere along the production chain?

No, I live by the principle of Love.

If in a job you loved, you were given ONE assignment that required you to harm or deceive someone, in any way, would you do it? Or would you refuse, even if that would get you fired?

No, because I believe that isn't so selfish at all, especially if I'd love the job, since working on yourself is a really selfless thing to do.

Would you ever do something you considered wrong, because you believed that the positive effects would outweigh the damage? Would you condone lying, incarceration of innocent people, torture, killings, if you were absolutely convinced that from a rational, political point of view, your actions would be absolutely necessary for the greater good?

I don't believe that torture and killings are for the greater good.

How would you handle not being able to understand how your decisions or actions will affect a group of people or the country as a whole?
Would you feel comfortable deciding the DEGREE to which individual freedom should be sacrificed for security?

I don't live in America, so I don't understand your whole freedom thing.

Would you accept to be a soldier if your country attacked another? How about if it was under attack?
Neither.

Would you kill enemy soldiers who you knew were just following orders? If not, would you just let yourself be killed or sentenced to jail for that, with no hesitation?

I wouldn't kill them even if they weren't following others(i.e. generals,...). I wouldn't have to get a sentence to jail since I wouldn't apply to army in the first place. And no, I wouldn't let myself be killed with no hesitation. But going to army wouldn't decrease the risk of getting killed, would it? In fact, it could only increase it.

What would you do as a political leader? Would you condone war for any reasons? If not, what would you do?
I would not support war. I don't know exactly what I would do, but I believe ways of peace would presented to me by the universe.

How would you feel about paying your taxes if there were some policies that you didn't agree with?
I'd just pay the taxes. No need to fight the system. It's much better if you try to change the ones controling it.

How is integrity compatible with supporting a government that (among many positive things), also condones some negative ones, such as a war in some part of the globe? This applies only if you are in fact totally opposed to war.

I don't think a goverment would condone many positive things if it condoned war.

What if some sort of authority wrongfully denied you your freedom, in a way you would consider truly wrong?
I would not fight it.

Would you allow someone else to keep you captive and lead you around, or would you be ready to fight against anyone who imposes domination and torture upon you?
I don't believe I'll be in such a situation any time soon. But I think if it was no big deal I would fight it. If it was keeping in me in jail or in real torture, there probably wouldn't be much chance to resist, would there be? I'm not some John Wayne, or Sam Fisher if you're into games.

What if your actual captors were just following orders from superiors?
Same as above.

If someone you cared about was in this situation, would you try (and risk) anything in order to save them?
Same as above.


In conclusion, always remember that you are not going to die, so just relax a little bit. Just don't fight the system, but try to change yourself and others. Also, I hope that I helped you with my effort.