How truthful to your principles would you be?

[Aleksander Krstic]

Here is also an article about virtues that you should probably look into:
The Meaning of Life: How Shall We Live?

And if you want to read the entire series here is the first part:
The Meaning of Life: Intro

[bluedragon]

Thank you for the long answer. I realize that just creating the quotes in your reply must take a lot of time, so I am very grateful

In conclusion, always remember that you are not going to die, so just relax a little bit.

That's very encouraging, but I am not entirely sure I'm not going to die. I sometimes think I'm gonna get myself in some kind of trouble. I feel great 96% of the time, but then I read some report on torture in prisons or I watch a movie where they mistreat someone, and I begin to think what I would do in that situation. I am certain that I would fight the oppressors, no matter who they are, and I would get myself killed, unless I would be a coward and not find the strength to act, and then I don't know what I would do to get over the shame of it.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Well if it's encouraging know that I've been in the same situation, but have gotten out of it.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Also it was no big deal writing that post.

[MetaFitX]

Very interesting thread!

Originally Posted by bluedragon;368058[B

Corporate environment[/B]

Would you work in a job where you would be required to lie from time to time?
Would you work for a pharmaceutical company knowing that ONE of their products actually had more negative effects, and the management knew it? If not, what exactly would you do? Would you quit right away, regardless of the effect of this decision on your career and life?

Would you work for a company that tortures animals somewhere along the production chain?
If in a job you loved, you were given ONE assignment that required you to harm or deceive someone, in any way, would you do it? Or would you refuse, even if that would get you fired?

I would have a very difficult time with all of the above. Definitely a no to all.

Politics

Would you ever do something you considered wrong, because you believed that the positive effects would outweigh the damage? Would you condone lying, incarceration of innocent people, torture, killings, if you were absolutely convinced that from a rational, political point of view, your actions would be absolutely necessary for the greater good?

Likewise, I simply could not condone any of the above, even if the supposed benefits out-weighed the supposed deleterious effects in the future. As far as I am concerned, for me to condone something it would have to be something with which I could partake in personally. Thus, I simply could not tell someone to torture a prisoner when I couldn't do it myself.

War

Would you accept to be a soldier if your country attacked another? How about if it was under attack? Would you kill enemy soldiers who you knew were just following orders? If not, would you just let yourself be killed or sentenced to jail for that, with no hesitation?

What would you do as a political leader? Would you condone war for any reasons? If not, what would you do?

Although I have never served, I would have no problem enlisting (or being drafted) into a war in which my country was attacked. I think that on moral grounds I would be opposed to a war in which my state attacked another, however if I was enlisted at the time, I would still obey my orders. As far as killing enemy soldiers is concerned, I certainly wouldn't like it but I wouldn't just stand there and take a bullet. I think that in this situation, I would be fighting for the guys standing shoulder to shoulder with me.

Personal life

How would you feel about paying your taxes if there were some policies that you didn't agree with? How is integrity compatible with supporting a government that (among many positive things), also condones some negative ones, such as a war in some part of the globe? This applies only if you are in fact totally opposed to war.

What if some sort of authority wrongfully denied you your freedom, in a way you would consider truly wrong? Would you allow someone else to keep you captive and lead you around, or would you be ready to fight against anyone who imposes domination and torture upon you? What if your actual captors were just following orders from superiors?
If someone you cared about was in this situation, would you try (and risk) anything in order to save them?

Absolutely (to both).

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by MetaFitX

Very interesting thread!
I would have a very difficult time with all of the above. Definitely a no to all.

And what if you have a family to feed? 2 children who you cannot give food if you don´t work there?
What if it is just you who does not have money enough to eat?

[Aleksander Krstic]

This post is meant both to the OP and ssandra.

Perhaps you're socially conditoned to believe that surviving without food is impossible, but let's take a look on some examples:
-if you move to warmer climate area, you can do sungazing
-I have been plenty of times in a situation when I thought I am in a great danger of survival, but I'm still healthy and alive
-if you don't like your job you can always quit it and start a bussiness if you can't find a job. if you want to know why, read this article

[ssandra]

I know and understand this.

But... experimenting with things like sungazing is 1 thing if you are alone

What if you have a baby? What if you cannot start your own company, or do not have the money to survive the first few months or year of your own company (no savings?)

What I am trying to get at, is that having principles is good and personally I would always try to live by them, but it is not that easy as it might seem.

It is also not to say that you would still stay at that company, it is just a different question when other people depend on you.

[Aleksander Krstic]

Perhaps taking risks would be a better idea? If you haven't taken any risks yet, I must encourage you to do so.

The Courage to Live Consciously by Steve Pavlina

EDIT:

I'm not saying you should risk your family lifes. Just start with something that both scares and excites you at the same time.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Aleksander Krstic

Perhaps taking risks would be a better idea? If you haven't taken any risks yet, I must encourage you to do so.

I have taken risks. I have been in situations where I didn´t know if I had something to eat the next week. I like taking risks. I like trying new things and I would never start anything just because it is supposed to be that way.

This is not about a real situation, or something that I am arguing against. I am just thinking about these things a lot. They are interesting puzzles.

For example: I am against torture. I would not toruture anybody, not even if that could lead to the discovery of a bomb somewhere or save my own life.
However... what if that person holds my husband, or a child of mine (I have no children btw).
What would I do than?

Principles are more difficult to live by if it is not just you but other people that you are responsable for as well.

[Aleksander Krstic]

I'm glad to hear that. About principles I believe that you should still consider the ones from Steve's book.

If you can't afford or don't want to buy it, here is a quick summary of my three guiding principles of my life:

What problems have you solved using the Truth-Love-Power framework?

Look for Mattyy's long post.

[bluedragon]

Remember how they employed principles in each and every major decision in the Star Trek TNG series? Principles such as truth, or their prime directive which prohibited them from interfering with other civilizations' business uninvited (even if there was a civil war going on, or someone innocent was going to be executed.

One interesting example was Data, who as an android, was unable to override his ethical programming and lie, under any circumstances. I don't recall any instances when this absolute adherence to this principle ever interfered with his duties as an officer. In one instance, however, this was what allowed him to save his entire crew from destruction. He was the only person on board who could be trusted with absolute certainty even by an enemy race to keep a secret from his own crew and defend it with his life, if Captain Picard ordered him never to reveal it. As I said, I'm not sure, but I have the impression that by deciding "not to lie", you create the power to succeed using only honesty.

[bluedragon]

I have read Steve's articles from the "Living Your Values" series.

Seems to me like he is clearly sustaining that it is powerful and effective to make decisions based on your values (which is what I also want to do, and this is why I started this thread). However, those articles didn't really tackle the delicate situations where your values are really put to the test and would require you to take drastic actions with radical repercussions. Still, he didn't say anywhere that he believes you can compromise on your values whenever the going gets too tough. He did say it's good to reexamine them and change them, if you change your beliefs, but not that you should compromise on those values that you are choosing to live by.

[Kaybee]

There are always challenges and situations that conflict with my values, especially in Corporate America where I have worked for over 20 years. I have been asked to "bend the truth," "conveniently forget things," and the list goes on.

Have I ever caved? Unfortunately....yes. Have I ever held steadfast and refused to do certain things.....yes.

I guess the best way to be true to your values is to place yourself in the best possible situation where you survive or overcome the negative consequences (should there be any). At least that is what I try to do. I've even jeopardized my job a few times.

Kim
Self Improvement and Motivation
Kim (fuelmotivation) on Twitter

[bluedragon]

I can afford Steve's book, since I expect it to be one of the best books I've ever read. I hope I will find more insights in there about how to live according to those principles, and weather he thinks it is ever worth it to compromise on your values and principles.

[BeyondtheWrap]

The closest example from my life is that I work in a library where I've been asked to throw away old books into the dumpster instead of recycling them.

I just do what they tell me.

[Tarzansjane]

Ouch. You pose some really tough questions.

I guess what I do is try to weigh things out and do things that are the greatest good for everyone involved. I'm human, so I'm not perfect at this, but I try to assist the survival of my fellow man and I try to be a good friend, loyal, trustworthy, etc. I guess this simplistic view keeps it from being so complex, it keeps me from being selfish (to a degree ), and it keeps things running more smoothly in my life.

I've been known to quit jobs out of principal, but as I get older, I find myself trying to work out compromises in situations, because there is no such thing as perfection. There are no absolutes.

There are lines, though. Cross certain lines and there is no way I'd be involved (criminal activity, for example). Or if one tries to be "too good," that's just exhausting and can cause problems too.

So I guess when it works best is when there's balance.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by BeyondtheWrap

The closest example from my life is that I work in a library where I've been asked to throw away old books into the dumpster instead of recycling them.

I just do what they tell me.

That's a very good example. Is there any reason for throw books in the dumpster, any reasons at all such as safety, credibility, certain work regulations, etc?

I would certainly oppose it and try to take the books without them seeing me, but if they made it impossible, I don't know if I would quit right away over it.