Age! Why does it still matter?

[newsbone]

Why are there social and legal laws that restrict people’s freedom to choose what they can and cannot do? Every where we look there are age old taboos that are related to age that determines our character, why are there things that are morally, socially and legally acceptable to a given age group which is considered as unacceptable to another? Don’t you think it is time this written and unwritten laws are done away with?

[TaylorLord]

I may go way to far and ramble with this one but bare with me this is my 2 cents at 12:45 am lol. Id say Its all about control. Partially I am quite happy that this is so, it keeps people safe and it keeps people that are immoral, locked up. The reason why there are legal ages to do certain things is because scientists determine that at age X you are conscious enough where you can make your own choice knowing the good or bad circumstances to which your actions lead to. For example they figure at age 18 you understand enough about life to realize that smoking cigarettes/killing yourself is your choice and cannot be blamed on other people due to your own negligence. I guess they believe the body is fully an adult by this age and your actions are going to be judged as the adult you are.

They choose what you can and cannot do because they don't know you, you may not even be able to reason from right or wrong. Thats irrelevant tho they don't know what your capable of or the thoughts in your head. If you killed someone, do you feel that there shouldn't be any punishment involved? Well in certain belief systems this could be the case, you in fact may believe that you can preform such hideous crimes and not be punished but right is right and wrong is wrong. The death penalty was created because of this. If they don't know you, they don't know what your going to do so they are going to give rules and laws which govern you with penalties that keep the good people safe and the bad people locked up.

You also have to look at it from this stand point. Laws keep people in-line. They are set to come with such harsh punishment where they figure only a small percentage of people will break. Some laws are better than others i'd say. I believe in all the laws that keep me safe as well as safety for minors

Do you think its right to have a 40 year old have sex with a 15 year old? Why or why not? I say that a 15 year olds brain isn't in the right state of mind nor mature enough to make the choice of sleeping with a 40 year old man. Id say that laws are set in place to keep this type of stuff from happening.

In a perfect world everything and everyone would have the freedom to do whatever the heck they want to like I said its about safety and control which is morally right for the people. When you are apart of a government ran society they will let you know whats best for you.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by TaylorLord

Do you think its right to have a 40 year old have sex with a 15 year old? Why or why not? I say that a 15 year olds brain isn't in the right state of mind nor mature enough to make the choice of sleeping with a 40 year old man. Id say that laws are set in place to keep this type of stuff from happening..

This the whole point! It is not right because it made to look so, but where is the difference? 15 year olds do sleep with 20 year olds is it still not sex? Sex is sex for it involves penetration at some point and I don’t think size comes with age!

[ssandra]

As far as I know, brains are still developing in puberty. What actually is developing is the ability to forsee the reaction to your action, to more than just the immediate future.

That is why teenagers are often selfish, and can do stupid things.

Puberty comes at a different age for everybody, but on average between 13 and 16 (or 18, I don´t remember). Therefor there are laws to protect children who scientificly cannot make a right decision yet.

There will always be exceptions to the question of course, but here the exceptions will just have to deal with it, to protect the masses.

As to a 15 yr old having sex with a 40 yr old... If it is true love, the 40 yr old should not have any problem waiting another 3 yrs.

If it is just about the sex with a 15yr old, the 40yr old should get to a psycologist asap, because he probably has some wrong views about sex and innocence and power.

[newsbone]

I think your kind of reaction is sort of expected based on what you have been taught to be wrong and right. If a girls body is in a position to become a woman the scientific perspective as you have put it is pointless (remember they are a times influenced by the common view on morality) but a biased standpoint.

The youngest mother I still believe was from somewhere in Brazil at the age of 9 she gave birth, I think she also happens to be the youngest grandmother. Biology in a way rebels against this common perception on sex which is more or less influenced by society. The dangers of sex remain the same irrespective of age.

And again it is not only about sex; age has been wrongly used to hinder people pursue their wildest dreams because most often they are considered to either too old or too young despite all the other faculties proving the otherwise.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by newsbone

...
And again it is not only about sex; age has been wrongly used to hinder people pursue their wildest dreams because most often they are considered to either too old or too young despite all the other faculties proving the otherwise.

So what? What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger and more resourceful to go for your goal anyway! Whatever your age.

Personally, I pursue my goals within the limits of the law, even if I think it's a silly law. I don't have the patience to have silly laws changed. I rather focus my energy on my goals.

What specifically about age-related laws bother you? How does it hinder YOU?

[lasti]

I think that a lot of those "stupid choices" teenager make are caused by the state of powerlessness that law puts them in.

They don't have to (can't) take responsibility for a whole lot of things - so they don't.

And instead of encouraging them to do better we tell them all the time how stupid they, how not capable they are and that they just aren't old enough.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by newsbone

And again it is not only about sex; age has been wrongly used to hinder people pursue their wildest dreams because most often they are considered to either too old or too young despite all the other faculties proving the otherwise.

Last year I was audtitoned by a band that searched a singer (nothing ambitioned, they were just doing it for the fun) . I was 19 at that time, they were in their mid-twenties. After the singing I got the answer that they didn't like my singing so much and that I was maybe also too young.
I found that quite funny - I had been in a band where everybody else were in their mid-thirties for a year.
They didn't think I was too young.

BTW:
I'm still with that band today - the other band is still looking for a singer.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by newsbone

The youngest mother I still believe was from somewhere in Brazil at the age of 9 she gave birth, I think she also happens to be the youngest grandmother. Biology in a way rebels against this common perception on sex which is more or less influenced by society. The dangers of sex remain the same irrespective of age.

And again it is not only about sex; age has been wrongly used to hinder people pursue their wildest dreams because most often they are considered to either too old or too young despite all the other faculties proving the otherwise.

Just because it happens or happened doesn´t make it right. That it happend 1.000 years ago, doesn´t mean that it should happen now.

Dangers of sex remain the same, true. But, as a teenager you simply do not have the brain to forsee what those dangers are and what it might mean for your future.
This is not a mentallity issue, but a scientifical issue, because brains simply have not grown enough yet.

Which dreams are hindered by rules/laws for people being to old? I have never heard of that one.

Dreams hindered by being to young is mostly to protect, not to limit. If it really is so important, it can wait a few years.

How often has it not happened when you were young that you knew with certainty that you would become a fireman? Or that you hated your parents? Or that you love your bf at age 14 and that you are soulmates and will stay together forever and ever, only to have the same feeling for somebody else 2 months later..?

I am going to try and find the scientific proof for this and I´ll post it here.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by ssandra

If it really is so important, it can wait a few years.

If it's really so important, it shouldn't wait at all.

[ssandra]

Here is a link. The primary information I have from Dr. Phil, somebody I trust in giving correct information and stating where his information comes from. But this is another source where it is explained:

Society for Neuroscience | The Adolescent Brain

Other parts of the brain also undergo refinement during the teen years. Areas associated with more basic functions, including the motor and sensory areas, mature early. Areas involved in planning and decision-making, including the prefrontal cortex -- the cognitive or reasoning area of the brain important for controlling impulses and emotions -- appear not to have yet reached adult dimension during the early twenties. The brain's reward center, the ventral striatum, also is more active during adolescence than in adulthood, and the adolescent brain still is strengthening connections between its reasoning- and emotion-related regions.

As adults we are responsable for protecting children. This also means stopping them from making decisions that can affect their entire life and they cannot oversee the consequenses yet.

Sometimes that might be wrong, the adult may make the wrong decision, but I think that the child can change that when they reach adulthood. If the child (teenager) made a decision when they were young, it is usually to late to change anything about it.

Lets take for example having a baby (lets leave the sex out of it for arguements sake).

A child of 15 might really really want to have a baby. It is very very important for her. She wants something to love, and she feels it is so important that it cannot wait.

her parents disagree, they can see a bigger picture and more consequenses down the line. The forbid her to have a child.

Now, if the child doesn´t listen and has a child she is stuck with it for at least 20 years. Which is ok if she doesn´t change her mind, but not so much if she does change her mind.

In case the child listens to her parents, and doesn´t have a child, maybe at age 16 she wants a dog... she gets one, is very happy, meets the love of her life at 20 and they have a child together...

If the parents are wrong and she is serious of having a child, nothing stops her from having one at age 18... at least it will give her time to really thing about the responsabilties.

It is a tactic that my parents used for us. If we really wanted something we had to wait at least a week (or a month for something big) and if we still wanted it, we could have it. 9 times out of 10, we completely forgot about it...

But.. I still don´t know where old age stops you from doing something you want to do...? Or are you just talking socially?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by lasti

If it's really so important, it shouldn't wait at all.

Why not? Why should you not wait for something important? Of course, not forever, but at least until you are old enough to understand the consequenses of your actions?

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by lasti

BTW:
I'm still with that band today - the other band is still looking for a singer.

Serves them right to ignore talent over some stupid assumption!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Dangers of sex remain the same, true. But, as a teenager you simply do not have the brain to forsee what those dangers are and what it might mean for your future.
This is not a mentallity issue, but a scientifical issue, because brains simply have not grown enough yet.

Then it is better for an inexperienced 15 years old to have sex with a very experienced 40 years old rather than with another inexperienced 15 year old. This is because the experienced old man knows how to navigate the waters as compared to the 15 years old.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Then it is better for an inexperienced 15 years old to have sex with a very experienced 40 years old rather than with another inexperienced 15 year old. This is because the experienced old man knows how to navigate the waters as compared to the 15 years old.

No, because part of learning how to have sex and what your own preferences are, is this path of discovery.

Besides this, there is always a base of power between somebody of 40 and 15. This is (in my moral opinion) the main reason why it is not right. Sex out of "obligation" or sense of duty or because the other person has a power over you, is wrong (unless you make that decision when you are old enough, but that is an entire other discussion )

There can also be a base of power between 2 15 year olds, but it is impossible to make that a legal issue more than they have at the moment (rape or date-rape).

[ssandra]

I guess what I am trying to say, is that 15 year olds should not be "having sex". They should be Experimenting with sexual feelings and sex. there is a very big difference between the 2.

[Daffy Duck]

In terms of alcoholic beverages and age, studies show that raising the age limit has reduced the amount of automobile accidents and other things related to alcohol. The decision to allow drinking at age 21 also has to do with brain development. Of course, these laws don't entirely stop teenagers from drinking, but it does help.

In regards to having sex, or any action humans can take, I don't think anyone should do it if they can't handle the consequences.

[lasti]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Here is a link. The primary information I have from Dr. Phil, somebody I trust in giving correct information and stating where his information comes from. But this is another source where it is explained:

Society for Neuroscience | The Adolescent Brain

Other parts of the brain also undergo refinement during the teen years. Areas associated with more basic functions, including the motor and sensory areas, mature early. Areas involved in planning and decision-making, including the prefrontal cortex -- the cognitive or reasoning area of the brain important for controlling impulses and emotions -- appear not to have yet reached adult dimension during the early twenties. The brain's reward center, the ventral striatum, also is more active during adolescence than in adulthood, and the adolescent brain still is strengthening connections between its reasoning- and emotion-related regions.

As adults we are responsable for protecting children. This also means stopping them from making decisions that can affect their entire life and they cannot oversee the consequenses yet.

Sometimes that might be wrong, the adult may make the wrong decision, but I think that the child can change that when they reach adulthood. If the child (teenager) made a decision when they were young, it is usually to late to change anything about it.

Lets take for example having a baby (lets leave the sex out of it for arguements sake).

A child of 15 might really really want to have a baby. It is very very important for her. She wants something to love, and she feels it is so important that it cannot wait.

her parents disagree, they can see a bigger picture and more consequenses down the line. The forbid her to have a child.

Now, if the child doesn´t listen and has a child she is stuck with it for at least 20 years. Which is ok if she doesn´t change her mind, but not so much if she does change her mind.

In case the child listens to her parents, and doesn´t have a child, maybe at age 16 she wants a dog... she gets one, is very happy, meets the love of her life at 20 and they have a child together...

If the parents are wrong and she is serious of having a child, nothing stops her from having one at age 18... at least it will give her time to really thing about the responsabilties.

It is a tactic that my parents used for us. If we really wanted something we had to wait at least a week (or a month for something big) and if we still wanted it, we could have it. 9 times out of 10, we completely forgot about it...

But.. I still don´t know where old age stops you from doing something you want to do...? Or are you just talking socially?

I get what you say - but let's see it from an entire different perspective:
When kids do things they are not allowed to do from a legal perspective - who can help them when they get into trouble? Most of them won't talk about it - after all they did something illegal.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

In terms of alcoholic beverages and age, studies show that raising the age limit has reduced the amount of automobile accidents and other things related to alcohol. The decision to allow drinking at age 21 also has to do with brain development. Of course, these laws don't entirely stop teenagers from drinking, but it does help.

Has it ever crossed your mind that in countries that there is a ban of alcohol alcohol related accidents are next none?

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

In regards to having sex, or any action humans can take, I don't think anyone should do it if they can't handle the consequences.

The consequences are the same!

[Daffy Duck]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Has it ever crossed your mind that in countries that there is a ban of alcohol alcohol related accidents are next none?

I'm not really sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're agreeing with my line of thought. I'm also thinking primarily of America and not so much about other countries. The policies that work for the United States might not work for other cultures.

Originally Posted by newsbone

The consequences are the same!

The consequence of a 13 year old having a baby is much different than the consequence of a 35 year old having a baby.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

I'm not really sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're agreeing with my line of thought. I'm also thinking primarily of America and not so much about other countries. The policies that work for the United States might not work for other cultures.

I meant it cannot be 'THE' reason because the result will be the same if the adults are banned.

[Angela]

Newsbone, would you be fine with your nine year old daughter getting knocked up by a 40 year old man?

Or her relaxing with a nice gin & tonic or two on the weekends?

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Angela

Newsbone, would you be fine with your nine year old daughter getting knocked up by a 40 year old man?

Or her relaxing with a nice gin & tonic or two on the weekends?

The way i was brought up and the way the society has decided it to be, it is wrong! But is it really wrong even when they are capable of being mothers?

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by ssandra

What actually is developing is the ability to foresee the reaction to your action, to more than just the immediate future.

Originally Posted by ssandra

But, as a teenager you simply do not have the brain to forsee what those dangers are and what it might mean for your future.

Originally Posted by ssandra

This also means stopping them from making decisions that can affect their entire life and they cannot oversee the consequenses yet.

Originally Posted by ssandra

Why should you not wait for something important? Of course, not forever, but at least until you are old enough to understand the consequenses of your actions?

As far as youthful sex goes it seems that adults (the rule makers) want to limit the choices of the young in order to protect them from their future. To protect them from an emotional reaction they might have if they later reflect on their choices and deny or judge their experiences as wrong (ie. shame).

Simply, adults (rule makers) who have felt shame around their own choices want to deny life's experiences to others because they fear they (the others) will make the exact same choice to feel shame about their life's experience, rather than to receive them as they are.

It's all about emotional protection. And the rules in this case against sex with minors perpetuates the idea of shame rather than let life flow it's natural course, unencumbered by a sea of emotional turmoil.

Believing the idea that sex with an older person is "wrong" is what creates the shame in the first place.

There's no rightness or wrongness to it... it is what it is. I know some will totally disagree with me and that's ok. With what I've written I'm trying to dive deeper into this than just what looks to be the issue. Other rules we have in society are probably also designed to avoid experiencing shame in the future. But the only way you can do that is to make certain experiences wrong now.

What's the takeaway from this? I don't think the forum is going to say hell with it and start sleeping with adolescents. I think the forum members will look at their own lives and say "where is it that I judge myself as wrong so I don't experience things in my life?"

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Angela

Newsbone, would you be fine with your nine year old daughter getting knocked up by a 40 year old man?

Or her relaxing with a nice gin & tonic or two on the weekends?

Angela, that's as bad as people using Hitler and Holocaust references in IM/LOA posts. Depth please. I know you can do it.

(Yes, and I just realized I'm putting my expectations on you when it's really my own problem with your response. You're fine as you are. Ooops. I'll post this anyway to show my underbelly.)

[Angela]

Originally Posted by newsbone

The way i was brought up and the way the society has decided it to be, it is wrong! But is it really wrong even when they are capable of being mothers?

A child may be capable physically of giving birth, but there's more to being a mother than just giving birth.

I don't need to check with an external source, like how I was brought up or what society says is "wrong" to know that I'm glad not to have been knocked up at age 9 (or 12, or 15). My internal resources are entirely sufficient for me to feel quite happy to support the protection of children from sex with adults, and to recognize that an adult who is willing to have sex with a child (who is clearly lacking the inner resources to deal with sex or pregnancy effectively, and with real, informed, choice) is acting with a win/lose intention -- no integrity there.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Angela, that's as bad as people using Hitler and Holocaust references in IM/LOA posts. Depth please. I know you can do it.

(Yes, and I just realized I'm putting my expectations on you when it's really my own problem with your response. You're fine as you are. Ooops. I'll post this anyway to show my underbelly.)

Hi, Dharma -- I don't that's an accurate comparison. The OP asks:

Why are there social and legal laws that restrict people’s freedom to choose what they can and cannot do?

...and my question personalizing the issue is meant to discover what comes up from an internal check in the matter.

For me, an internal check on the issue of adults having sex with children, gives me access to an answer to the OP's question: I'm very glad to have been protected from adults who would like to have had sex with me when I was too young to deal with it effectively, and I'm very glad to support that same protection for children now.

When I was a little girl I recognized but did not understand how creepy it was for adult men to be putting the moves on me. Now, from an adult perspective, I have more understanding of how manipulative and win/lose the men were -- the power-over they were demonstrating. It's too much to ask of a child to handle that kind of power-over on her (or his) own. I feel quite good about the adult responsibility for supporting and protecting children.

You're fine as you are.

I know.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

A child may be capable physically of giving birth, but there's more to being a mother than just giving birth.

I don't need to check with an external source, like how I was brought up or what society says is "wrong" to know that I'm glad not to have been knocked up at age 9 (or 12, or 15). My internal resources are entirely sufficient for me to feel quite happy to support the protection of children from sex with adults, and to recognize that an adult who is willing to have sex with a child (who is clearly lacking the inner resources to deal with sex or pregnancy effectively, and with real, informed, choice) is acting with a win/lose intention -- no integrity there.

Just know that that is a societal influence, and not a "natural" influence.

I mean, after all, people were kings and queens at such ages in the distant past.

Young people can handle a lot more than we give them credit for.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Angela

A child may be capable physically of giving birth, but there's more to being a mother than just giving birth.

I don't need to check with an external source, like how I was brought up or what society says is "wrong" to know that I'm glad not to have been knocked up at age 9 (or 12, or 15). My internal resources are entirely sufficient for me to feel quite happy to support the protection of children from sex with adults, and to recognize that an adult who is willing to have sex with a child (who is clearly lacking the inner resources to deal with sex or pregnancy effectively, and with real, informed, choice) is acting with a win/lose intention -- no integrity there.

As far as youthful sex goes it seems that adults (the rule makers) want to limit the choices of the young in order to protect them from their future. To protect them from an emotional reaction they might have if they later reflect on their choices and deny or judge their experiences as wrong (ie. shame).

Simply, adults (rule makers) who have felt shame around their own choices want to deny life's experiences to others because they fear they (the others) will make the exact same choice to feel shame about their life's experience, rather than to receive them as they are.

It's all about emotional protection. And the rules in this case against sex with minors perpetuates the idea of shame rather than let life flow it's natural course, unencumbered by a sea of emotional turmoil.

Believing the idea that sex with an older person is "wrong" is what creates the shame in the first place.

There's no rightness or wrongness to it... it is what it is. I know some will totally disagree with me and that's ok. With what I've written I'm trying to dive deeper into this than just what looks to be the issue. Other rules we have in society are probably also designed to avoid experiencing shame in the future. But the only way you can do that is to make certain experiences wrong now.

Why should a specific group of people who hold the power of decision making see it fit to trample on other peoples right just because they assume that they are right and others have no choice but to accept that they are wrong.

Just know that that is a societal influence, and not a "natural" influence.

I mean, after all, people were kings and queens at such ages in the distant past.

Young people can handle a lot more than we give them credit for

I agree with you completely!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Just know that that is a societal influence, and not a "natural" influence.

Well, that's your knowledge, but my knowledge is that I am very grateful to have been protected by the adults around me from being f*cked by an adult when I was a child. I could have handled it, you're right, but not as effectively as I would have liked either then or in retrospect. As I mentioned, even as a child I knew that there was something icky about men wanting to have sex with me, even though I didn't understand exactly what was the ick factor. The ick factor was natural, no societal influence. It was thin-slicing; it was my unconscious mind, with the resources it had at the time, protecting me. And I'm very glad that societal influence and caring grown-ups had my back.

If you, or any other adult, were to justify your having sex with a child by calling it a "natural" impulse, I would have no compunction at all about calling upon societal influence and groupthink to put your ass in jail and throw away the key.

I have no problem with you (by which I mean "one," not you personally) thinking it's natural, okay, or not wrong to have sex with children. You are (one is) perfectly free to use that perspective. And I'm perfectly fine with using my own personal power to either prevent that win/lose sex from happening, or to get the perpetrator of such an action locked up.

And I think you know what happens to that particular kind of perpetrator in jail! More natural urges getting indulged. I'll leave that to others to protect the grown-up recipients of those natural urges.