Age! Why does it still matter?

[aggie]

raging hormones would more than likely one-up any intelligence in a 14 yo having sex with a 40 yo....and we are not literally taking about size and abilitiy to absorb, or pleasure vs pain...it is what it could do mentally or psychologically or emotionally as well!....and you speak of the power women can have with sex as the weapon...no arguement there...which is precisely one reason a 14 yo girl may desire to have sex with a 40 yo...not thinking out the logic there, either.....

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by newsbone

I thought that the mental faculty has a lot to do with the way we physically handle situations ssandra? The brains in away predetermines if the body in a position to absorb the phallus if a 40m year old, that is if she has made a personal decision to engage in the act. Or are you saying that 14 year olds cannot differentiate between pain and pleasure?

I disagree here completely. There are things that you could handle physically, but not mentally. Example; being bullied (either adults at work, or children at school), being called names. Physically nothing happens, you can handle it. Mentally it is another issue all together.

Same with sex. Your body can be ready, but that doesn´t mean that your mind is as well. In adolecense you grow both physically and mentally, but it doesn´t happen at the same time and in the same pace.

Ofcourse a 14 yr old can differentiate between pain and pleasure. But it is not always that simple. Sex (especially the first few times) can be very very intense and can have lasting consequenses, not just babies but also how they feel about themselves, how they feel about their sexuality and their selfimage. At 14 you don´t have the capability yet to see these things, at 14 it is still very much about instant gratification.

Originally Posted by newsbone

What I know is that unless it is rape where one party forcefully exercises potent power over another I think the only notable difference between a 14 year old and a 40 year old is experience otherwise they have equal power based on give and take. If you talk of learning/experimentation I believe an experienced tutor is well placed to guide you through the basic steps than a fumbling teacher who does not understand what it is in the first place.

There can never be an equal give and take between a 14 and 40 year old because of the difference in experience, even if the 40 year old would still be a virgin as well. As a child you have an image in your mind of adults, they have a power over you.
Power can be very very subtle, it doesn´t have to be rape. As a child adults are in a position of power, they have power over you, simply by being adults. Even if the 40 yr old doesn´t realise this, it still is there.

About the learning, it is not a teaching thing. It is about experimenting. As an example; a 3 yr old playing with dolls with another 3 yr old is not the same as a 3 yr old getting a lesson from a 40 yr old in how to play with dolls. She has to experience it on her own, discover alone what she likes about dolls, how she wants to play. But if an adult tells her how to play she will not be able to do this.

Originally Posted by newsbone

My 3 years old daughter influences most of my decisions to her favour everyday, am convinced that manipulation is an inbuilt mechanism is women that all they might initially lack is the knowledge of their power over men, but this does not stop them from unconsciously doing it now and then. In all relationships that I have witnessed or participated women irrespective of experience have power over men with sex as the preferred weapon of choice.

Children always try to influence adults. Thats what they are children for. They have short term memories, and short term desires. Are you giving your 3yr old candy every day for diner because she wants it? No, because she cannot forsee what that will do to her, so you protect her, by forbidding it (at least, I hope so.. ).

I feel sorry for you that you only had such a limited experience with women. If you are willing to take something from me, there are other forms of relationships, build on equality and trust. Not on trying to get something from someone by giving or withholding sex.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Power herein lies at the hands of the provider and in this instance am convinced via experience that the women irrespective of age can make any man kill for sex! And they always both knowingly or unknowingly wield and use what they have to get what they want; this is real power!

Again, I´m sorry that you see the world like this. There is a whole different world out there, where it doesn´t revolve around power and making people kill for you.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Ssandra are you saying you no longer have any kind of crush of the opposite sex who you find to be physically attractive to you? Me thinks you are more experienced in understanding the futility of the feeling rather the absolute lack of it.

Of course I have crushes, I have had them as well. I am also old enough now to see them for what they are.

I am not lying awake at night thinking about how pointless life is because I cannot go to a concert. I can see things in perspective. I know that if I would go to a concert that would be fine, but I could not do other things with that money. When I was 14 I couldn´t see that, I couldn´t understand the difference between a crush and love or even being in love.

Originally Posted by newsbone

Why do we adore those who have become millionaires at a very young age and consider them as role models but abhor those who experience ‘physical sex education’ at what we consider an (mentally) immature age? If the issue is as you have put it, that sex ‘wont run away’ why then delay the inevitable?

The difference is that a 15yr old who is making money is doing that alone. They are not working for Microsoft 40 hours a week (being managed by an adult). If they have a company with a friend who is also 15yr old, way to go and I hope they will be successful.
If a 15 yr old discovers sex at a young age and is experimenting alone, more power to them. If they do so with another 15 yr old (responsably), way to go.

The diffence gets when there is an adult in the mix.

Why delay the inevitable? Because it will be better for them later. Therefor delay.
Why delay drinking with children, because it will be better for them later (or at least, not as bad )

I am not against sex, or even against sex between young people, as long as it is their choice and they are not forced, bullied or influenced by anyone. And teenagers get influenced very easy, especially by adults.

[aggie]

well said, ssandra!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I disagree here completely. There are things that you could handle physically, but not mentally. Example; being bullied (either adults at work, or children at school), being called names. Physically nothing happens, you can handle it. Mentally it is another issue all together.

Same with sex. Your body can be ready, but that doesn´t mean that your mind is as well. In adolecense you grow both physically and mentally, but it doesn´t happen at the same time and in the same pace..

Why should someone put up with bullying when there is no physical threat to back it up? I don’t get it ssandra! It is the fear of either the physical reprisal or being sacked that makes people not to stand up and face the bullies in the first place, have ever witnessed a situation where the physically inferior individual mistreats the physically superior in school or a junior at work bullying a superior? Impossible! And on sex you can only be not ready out of inexperience this can only be solved by participating in the act, which I believe the older the second partner is the easier and more fulfilling the first experience can be.

Originally Posted by ssandra

Ofcourse a 14 yr old can differentiate between pain and pleasure. But it is not always that simple. Sex (especially the first few times) can be very very intense and can have lasting consequenses, not just babies but also how they feel about themselves, how they feel about their sexuality and their selfimage. At 14 you don´t have the capability yet to see these things, at 14 it is still very much about instant gratification.

The intensity of the first few times calls for an experienced hand not the excited first timer or another teenager who has very little experience with a point to prove. Sex has and will always be about instant gratification with love and trust being used as a facade to this truth, as it does not matter how you approach it, at the end of the day if one party continuously doesn’t get satisfied love will disappear into thin air or choose to cheat while those who decide to persevere in a non-satisfactory relationship end up emotional wrecks.

Originally Posted by ssandra

There can never be an equal give and take between a 14 and 40 year old because of the difference in experience, even if the 40 year old would still be a virgin as well. As a child you have an image in your mind of adults, they have a power over you.
Power can be very very subtle, it doesn´t have to be rape. As a child adults are in a position of power, they have power over you, simply by being adults. Even if the 40 yr old doesn´t realise this, it still is there..

The power that we have over the young is the same reason we tend to limit them within what we want them to be, the position that this thread seems to threaten the one that we are not ready to give up. This is an illusion that we seem to have created then turn around blame the kids of being immature is the very one am propagating against.

Originally Posted by ssandra

About the learning, it is not a teaching thing. It is about experimenting. As an example; a 3 yr old playing with dolls with another 3 yr old is not the same as a 3 yr old getting a lesson from a 40 yr old in how to play with dolls. She has to experience it on her own, discover alone what she likes about dolls, how she wants to play. But if an adult tells her how to play she will not be able to do this..

You seem to forget that we introduced the dolls to the kids in the first place they did not choose it over something else, we condition them to think in a specific way then turn around and use what we have put in them against them. We teach our kids on how to play with the dolls they don’t learn on their own; we tell them what it is and how they are supposed even carry them. It is dolls because we said it is, we made it a girl-like doll even gave it a figure that we think will assist us keep the girl-kids quite( can you give a doll to a boy?); it is us the adults who are responsible ssandra.

Originally Posted by ssandra

I feel sorry for you that you only had such a limited experience with women. If you are willing to take something from me, there are other forms of relationships, build on equality and trust. Not on trying to get something from someone by giving or withholding sex.
Again, I’m sorry that you see the world like this. There is a whole different world out there, where it doesn’t revolve around power and making people kill for you.

Ha! Ha! Ha! For your information am pretty much experienced with women and it is therefore out of the same that I authoritatively speak. Why do you think there is commercialization of sex ssandra? There are a lot of dating sites out there if you care to go through them the subject remains one; SEX! I trust my mother and sisters and I have a beautiful relationship with them, why then should I go out and find a stranger bring her to my house, marry her and live with her just for the sake of equality and trust- excuse me; it is all about sex nothing more nothing less in as much as we shall try to pretend. A lot of relationships that pride themselves on equality and trust end up with separation or divorce sooner than later but a sexually active couple who understand the power of sex and make good use of the available resources to maintain an active sex life in their relationship remain together longer, research on that.
Women either consciously or otherwise use sex to attain greater heights in almost everything they choose to, marriages, jobs, pay rise, etc (Pandora’s Box am opening here)

Originally Posted by ssandra

I am not against sex, or even against sex between young people, as long as it is their choice and they are not forced, bullied or influenced by anyone. And teenagers get influenced very easy, especially by adults.

So what is the point? How can one have consensual sex without influencing another via seduction?

[crescive]

Honestly, I don't think age matters at all. It's no indication of maturity, awareness or consciousness. My boyfriend is 18 years older than I am, yet he tells me I am more mature than some 50 year olds that he knows. In my opinion, there is nothing inherently wrong with a 15 year old having sex with a 40 year old, if both of them are mature, loving, kind, healthy, and respectful. I don't think it's right to assume that all 40 year olds are creepy child molesters. I think most 40 year olds would not find they had much in common with a 15 year old and would likely have the foresight to know it would be a bad idea. All I'm saying is, if people are honest, loving, kind, and respectful then there would not be anything wrong with it if both parties are consensual. However, I do think age restrictions are in place because it's simply the easiest way to control the masses and protect them from harm.

[crescive]

Newsbone, I think sex is extremely important to a relationship but love is also important. I think you can experience sex without love, and that is fine, and you can experience love without sex, which is fine too, but I think it's best when both is there. Trust, communication, equality, and love and all those things CONTRIBUTE to better sex! If sex was such a priority to you, you should take care to make sure these are there! It makes it much more intense!

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by crescive

Newsbone, I think sex is extremely important to a relationship but love is also important. I think you can experience sex without love, and that is fine, and you can experience love without sex, which is fine too, but I think it's best when both is there. Trust, communication, equality, and love and all those things CONTRIBUTE to better sex! If sex was such a priority to you, you should take care to make sure these are there! It makes it much more intense!

Yeah i think you are right! I'll give it a try

[sk8joyful]

Originally Posted by newsbone

why are there things that are morally, socially and legally acceptable to a given age group.
which is considered as unacceptable to another?
Don’t you think it is time this written and unwritten laws are done away with?

All meaning is context-dependent.

For example, I can Morally, Legally, & Socially drive our van.
However, when my daughter was 17 months old, and got behind the wheel yelling (gleefully no less) "Mommy, me drive too...!!!" (you know 'Anything you can do, i can do better' )
then
THAT was not morally, legally, & socially-Acceptable; & I managed to stop both her & the van from becoming History. Thank God!!!

get it?

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by sk8joyful

All meaning is context-dependent.

For example, I can Morally, Legally, & Socially drive our van.
However, when my daughter was 17 months old, and got behind the wheel yelling (gleefully no less) "Mommy, me drive too...!!!" (you know 'Anything you can do, i can do better' )
then
THAT was not morally, legally, & socially-Acceptable; & I managed to stop both her & the van from becoming History. Thank God!!!

get it?

Do you want to atribute all the vans becoming history as a result of road accidents to the age factor?

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by newsbone

Do you want to atribute all the vans becoming history as a result of road accidents to the age factor?

Yes - all drivers had an age so...

Come on, Newsbone, don't put words in other people's mouths. Hardly a gentleman style.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Yes - all drivers had an age so....

Ooops i thought not

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Come on, Newsbone, don't put words in other people's mouths. Hardly a gentleman style.

Just learning the ropes to becoming a perfect gentleman!

[aggie]

and obviously this can be carried to an extreme to point out that age does, is, will always make a difference....to keep saftey, to keep structure, and reasonable boundaries in life...as i said you might as well grow kids in a test tube...and throw out any concept at all of an authorative figure in life from the government on down...we could revert back to wildness...it ain't perfect...but i shudder to think what things would be like without it....

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by aggie

and obviously this can be carried to an extreme to point out that age does, is, will always make a difference....to keep saftey, to keep structure, and reasonable boundaries in life...as i said you might as well grow kids in a test tube...and throw out any concept at all of an authorative figure in life from the government on down...we could revert back to wildness...it ain't perfect...but i shudder to think what things would be like without it....

Now now aggie what do you have to say about this article that kind of tells the truth about how fast the girl-child is growing socially, mentally and physically.

Mobiles, crop-tops, perfumes: Would YOU buy these items for your children?

[aggie]

i say that there are hormones in meat and milk products from factory farming, i say the bombardment of some things in music, the media, the fashion industry, the role models available, lack of parental supervision contribute to the physical and socially fast pace you speak of...whether the mental is keeping up with all that..i don't know...still doesn't make it right...kids are committing suicide and people ask why...if you seen, felt, done it all by the time you are 13 just because you can...the future could look pretty depressing...what else is left...newsbone even if you could abolish all of these age restrictions...unless someone is thrown out there parentless...it is still somewhat a moral obligation of the parents to see that some reasonable boundaries exist for their children for some measure of safety...if not the parents, the child, society will suffer the consequences in an expansive and expensive rippling effect.

[Kaybee]

I think age is important from the standpoint of emotional, mental, and physical maturity. I think the boundaries (the age when one is considered an adult) are necessary. However, once a person becomes an adult age should not matter as much except from the perspective of experience.

Kim
http://www-fuel-my-motivation.com

[newsbone]

kaybee! you say they are neccessary because you have been made to think that most decisions and choices should be made by people of a specific age groups and not the another. It is quite clear that the physical, mental emotional maturity has outgrown our earlier assumption, just as aggie has put it kids are growing up a lot faster now, therefore this fact should neccessitate the need for repeal of laws that do not recognise these.

[aggie]

they are growing physically faster and being bombarded by traditonally age related things sexually and socially...but for that very reason because the mental does not always go with it is percisely why the restrictions should still be implemented, for their sake and others....kids are not kids anymore...they do not get to enjoy the simple pleasures of growing up and playing..they are too busy trying to figure out how to get away doing something that can and should wait some years...whether it be the way they dress, talk, act....this is a big reason education has become of lilttle importance to some extent...even at the college levels..it is a social occurance rather than a learning experience...i am old school, sorry....get rid of the cell phones, give them uniforms and let them learn some basics in life then you can let them loose!

[newsbone]

Am an old school conservative but as the Fourth law of life dictates ' Change is the only constant', i kind of choose to be prepared rather than fight.

[aggie]

it is nice to be prepared, but isn't i nice to try to avert some of the things that we can....

[Brutha]

just as aggie has put it kids are growing up a lot faster now, therefore this fact should neccessitate the need for repeal of laws that do not recognise these

The laws in quesiton aren't old laws in Western countries but laws that got written in the last decades.

it is still somewhat a moral obligation of the parents to see that some reasonable boundaries exist for their children for some measure of safety...if not the parents, the child, society will suffer the consequences in an expansive and expensive rippling effect.

The question about what rules parents should have for their children and what rules the government has to enforce are two different questions.

Government should only interfere in personal liberty when it has strong reasons to do so because everyone in society has to live with those decisions.
Parents on the other hand can put up strict rules for their children if they wish without infringing in the freedom of people outside of the family.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Parents on the other hand can put up strict rules for their children if they wish without infringing in the freedom of people outside of the family.

Often the person infringing on the freedom of the child (aka sexually abusing it) is its parent.

I don't agree that adults should have the "liberty" to procreate tiny sexy partners. I'm fine with (in favor of) laws that discourage that.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't agree that adults should have the "liberty" to procreate tiny sexy partners. I'm fine with (in favor of) laws that discourage that.

It not about you agreeing with it or not but about what is right or wrong as dictated by life as it is today! Unless you want to convice us that you have monopoly over good and bad.

[newsbone]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The laws in quesiton aren't old laws in Western countries but laws that got written in the last decades.

Yes i agree, but it is still years back and new knowledge has made them redudant.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by newsbone

It not about you agreeing with it or not but about what is right or wrong as dictated by life as it is today! Unless you want to convice us that you have monopoly over good and bad.

I don't care about right/wrong, or good/bad. I only care about generating and supporting what works well for me, and letting go of (or sometimes dynamically eliminating) what doesn't.

In regards to laws against adults having sex with children, or having a minimum age for people to enter into legally binding contracts, I speak in support -- they work well for me. So, it IS about me agreeing with it or not! Well, it's about any or all of us agreeing with it or not, because I live in a democracy. That works well for me, too.

[Brutha]

Often the person infringing on the freedom of the child (aka sexually abusing it) is its parent.

Above I meant the creation of rules with infringing on the freedom by reducing the amount of options available.

When I speak about actions that are desinged to prevent someone from making a bad choice that will hurt them I wouldn't call that increasing freedom even when there might be other more important reasons.

So, it IS about me agreeing with it or not!

Then all people you don't like homosexuals should vote for laws that make homosexuality illegal?
There much value in not enforcing your morality by making laws against every activity that you disagree with.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Then all people you don't like homosexuals should vote for laws that make homosexuality illegal?
There much value in not enforcing your morality by making laws against every activity that you disagree with.

I'm not sure we're having the same conversation, but yes, I am in favor of people voting for laws that reflect their morality, even when it differs from mine.

Personally, I think laws that prohibit sexual acts between consenting adults are stupid, and laws that protect people from discrimination are smart. But the specific laws I was speaking of when I posted last are the ones that protect children from being sexually interfered with and from being held legally accountable for signing a contract. There is much value in enforcing my morality (and, apparently, the majority of people in my state's morality) by upholding such laws, in my view.

[Brutha]

Personally, I think laws that prohibit sexual acts between consenting adults are stupid, and laws that protect people from discrimination are smart

Discrimination, expect when those people happen to be minors or otherwise underage for the specific law?

I'm not sure we're having the same conversation, but yes, I am in favor of people voting for laws that reflect their morality, even when it differs from mine.

The discussion started with the question whether criterias of age should matter for laws.
There are different example of laws that have to do with age and I care more about the general principles than the specific examples.

I think that because of liberal principles that it's a bad idea to forbid marijuana just because you think that taken marijuana is bad for someone.
I don't think that enforcing morality on that level is the role of the state, but I have no problem with a parent forbidding their child to use marijuana because the parent thinks that marijuana is bad for the child.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Discrimination, expect when those people happen to be minors or otherwise underage for the specific law?

Yes, as I mentioned before, I am fine with discriminating "against" minors who are being "denied" certain legal rights (like the right to have sex with adults, and the right to enter into a legally binding contract as an adult) because they are underage. I'm not interested in making it illegal for minors to have sex with adults (or with each other) or for minors to enter into legally binding contracts; I'm in favor of having it continue to be illegal for adults to manipulate kids in such matters.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, as I mentioned before, I am fine with discriminating "against" minors who are being "denied" certain legal rights (like the right to have sex with adults, and the right to enter into a legally binding contract as an adult) because they are underage. I'm not interested in making it illegal for minors to have sex with adults (or with each other) or for minors to enter into legally binding contracts; I'm in favor of having it continue to be illegal for adults to manipulate kids in such matters.

I'm thinking the issue here isn't so much about "kids" as it is that little grey area in the teenage years.

Before they are 18, but older than, say, 16.

Cases where, say, a 21 year old man has sex with a 17 year old girl and gets the book thrown at him. I think those laws are ridiculous.

A 40 year old man having sex with a 17 year old girl, however, is just wrong. Why? Becaue a 40 year old man has far more "resources" with which to persuade a 17 year old girl than a 21 year old man. The 21 year old and the 17 year old are on similar mental capacities.

[Brutha]

Yes, as I mentioned before, I am fine with discriminating "against" minors who are being "denied" certain legal rights (like the right to have sex with adults, and the right to enter into a legally binding contract as an adult) because they are underage.

What about active and passive voting rights?